Reconciled to God while enemies !
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in Romans 5, when Paul says “the many were made righteous” (οἱ πολλοὶ κατεστάθησαν δίκαιοι), he is talking about justifiedness, not moral righteousness. And this is one of the clearest places where the English word righteous misleads modern readers.
He is using *δικαιοσύνη* in the forensic sense of justifiedness—the state of being placed in the right with God. The verb he uses means “to appoint” or “to constitute,” not “to morally transform.” Just as Adam’s act placed humanity into the realm of condemnation, Christ’s obedience places believers into the realm of justifiedness. This is the result of His cross‑work, not a description of moral perfection. I realize this nuance isn’t always emphasized in Sunday sermons, so it’s easy to assume “righteous” always means moral virtue, but Paul is describing a change of status, not substance.
I understand your concern, and I want to respond respectfully. In the context of message boards, a lot of meaning remains unspoken, so when someone makes a brief or compressed statement, I often have to infer what they might be getting at. That means I may occasionally address implications or assumptions that weren’t explicitly stated. I’m not trying to introduce topics no one raised; I’m simply trying to engage the conversation as clearly as I can with the information available. If I’ve misunderstood your intent, I’m more than willing to adjust — I just want to make sure I’m responding to the substance of what’s being discussed.
I know what he is saying. Its a legal righteousness. The elect Christ did it for, are born legally righteous. It has nothing to do with their morals, in fact they are enemies and ungodly, and that having been made righteous by His obedience still counts for them. God will sometime in their life regenerate them, and give them Faith to believe in Jesus because of it.
In that context, Paul doesn't mean "create" when he uses the term "made". He means "identified as". The sin of Adam identified all men to be Sinners. The obedience of Jesus will result in the fact that many will be identified as "right with God."
In Romans 5, when Paul says the many were “made righteous,” he is using “made” in the sense of “appointed” or “identified as,” not in the sense of moral transformation. The verb he uses means to place someone into a category or status. Jesus uses the same kind of language when He says, “Make the tree good,” meaning “identify the tree by its fruit,” not “morally improve the tree.” So Paul’s point is that Christ’s obedience places us into the category of the justified — what we might call “justifiedness” — rather than describing an infusion of moral righteousness.
When Paul says that God made Christ to be sin, he isn't saying that God transformed Christ into sin; he is saying that God designated or appointed Christ to represent sin, He spells this out in detail in Romans chapter 3 where he argues that the cross was a demonstration of God's righteousness, i.e moral goodness. If you want to know what God thinks of sin, look to the cross. The death of Christ stands as God's statement that he is not lax about sin.
Those who look at the cross and decide, "that is what I deserve for my sin," are those whom God is declaring "right in my sight."
No, it is given from salvation. Before that, we were spiritually dead in sin and as spiritually dead, oblivious to things spritual
Did you read the verses I included?
No, they do not repent to receive the grace - from God's grace repentance is given.
Again, did you read the verses I included regarding repentance? Repentance must be given by God as a gift; it cannot be appropriated by man to himself. We are given repentance first, by which, we became the people we are now.
[2Ti 2:25 KJV] 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
Who said "create"? The verse is self-explanatory - that solely by Christ's perfect obedience to the Father's plan of salvation, that Christ of Himself made many righteous without anything further being required of them.
Thats false, and its works Its nothing for them to decide, its a done deal apart from any deciding from them, its already been done for them. They are born into the world as sinners and rebels, and they have already been made righteous legally by Christ one obedience as their Covenant Surety..
My point is that we possess a righteousness before God that is not our own. It had to come from another source. That source is God.
At the same time our sins were laid upon Jesus on the cross. We know this is true because sin causes death. Having no sin of His own, Jesus could not have died unless our sins were ascribed to Him.
This is what the previous verses under consideration reveal.
How come god does such a terrible job at sanctifying his people? Calvinists admit they sin daily in word thought and deed and are usually extremely hostile, arrogant and hard to deal with. Why is God doing such a poor job in sanctifying these people? Seems like He does a much better job at the pentecostal camp that the calvinists reaaally dislike- strange!
Could it be because, you have to cooperate? If God truly did do 100% of the sanctifying work, give faith, give repentance it would be PERFECT repentance, not the arrogant James White lets get tattoos, drink it up with the lads and smoke cigars and navel gaze theology style of repentance
His righteousness is imputed to us. Look up what that word means. His spirit dwells within us and is righteousness, but we ourselves are not righteous
More on Reconciliation explained ! cont 3
They shall be saved by Christ's Life which means, because of the accomplishment of objective reconciliation, they shall be saved out of being enemies, into subjective reconciliation by the Life of Christ, which life is communicated to them by New Birth by the Spirit, that's why for all whom He died and objectively reconciled, by His Mediation, a Life Giving Spirit He became 1 Cor 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
As Risen Saviour and Head, He must communicate Life to His Body of which He is the Saviour of Eph 5:23
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.
The Spirit is given to all for whom He died through Him, which is Paul's meaning here Titus 3:5-6
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Please notice that the renewing Work of the Spirit, that saved them, was poured out or shed forth on them Through Jesus Christ our Saviour, hence, they were saved by His Life !
So in essence both objective and subjective Reconciliation of the sinner are of God 2 Cor 5:18
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
Objectively by the Death of Christ, and Subjectively by the communicated Life of Christ by the Spirit in New Birth ! Any not hearing and receiving this Gospel Witness of reconciliation are in darkness even now and are rejecting the Truth ! 2
They shall be saved by Christ's Life which means, because of the accomplishment of objective reconciliation, they shall be saved out of being enemies, into subjective reconciliation by the Life of Christ, which life is communicated to them by New Birth by the Spirit, that's why for all whom He died and objectively reconciled, by His Mediation, a Life Giving Spirit He became 1 Cor 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
As Risen Saviour and Head, He must communicate Life to His Body of which He is the Saviour of Eph 5:23
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Saviour of the body.
The Spirit is given to all for whom He died through Him, which is Paul's meaning here Titus 3:5-6
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Please notice that the renewing Work of the Spirit, that saved them, was poured out or shed forth on them Through Jesus Christ our Saviour, hence, they were saved by His Life !
So in essence both objective and subjective Reconciliation of the sinner are of God 2 Cor 5:18
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
Objectively by the Death of Christ, and Subjectively by the communicated Life of Christ by the Spirit in New Birth ! Any not hearing and receiving this Gospel Witness of reconciliation are in darkness even now and are rejecting the Truth ! 2
He doesnt, He does a excellent Job, they have been been sanctified and perfected forever Heb 10:10.14
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
I aint seeing it. But let me guess, its not ACTUAL righteousness or sanctification, its that "positional" type`? The type that the Bible warns against right?
"
...................... let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
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No kidding. Now tell the poster I was conversing with. This was the point.
When you jump into a conversation, perhaps get a handle on conversation first
I cant help what you dont see, accept it by Faith in His word. What does the word of God say in Heb 10:10,14 ? What did Christ death/offering accomplish ?
He said this below and you said 2 Corinthians 5:21 suggests differently, which is why I jumped in. Below is exactly what I said, and then you said, "No kidding". Weird.
"Where I would nuance things a bit is this: the New Testament consistently describes justification as God counting believers ‘in the right’ because of Christ, not as a transfer of moral perfection."
We also spoke concerning Philippians 3:9. But, as I said to the other poster, he includes alot of things not under consideration. See post #471 and you'll be caught up.