Reconciling Matthew 24 and Revelation 6

[Timtofly]

No one in Heaven was WORTHY to open the seals until the Lamb of God (that's Jesus) became worthy through his resurrection.

As I posted before, the four horses are mentioned in Zechariah. He explains their purpose, as well.
Basically, these are spirits that go about the earth creating "conditions" that God wants.

If no one was worthy, that would not happen until all were born who would ever live. That means they would not even start looking for any found worthy until the end was about to happen.

The seals are not spirits being sent out. The Seals are the unlocking of the Lamb's book of life. John just uses literated symbols for the first 4 times. Because when the first 4 were opened, one of the 4 beast pointed out an event on earth. The 5th and 6th Seal is the Second Coming event itself. The 7th Seal is opened when Jesus is sitting on his throne of glory in Jerusalem after the Second Coming. Matthew 25:31.

Now you can call those 4 beast or four witnesses just spirits, but it would seem they are 4 beings with the task of watching over the whole earth. The 4 beast did not cause events to happen. They were not spirits sent to earth to cause events to happen. From the start of the 1st Seal to the 7th Trumpet would be 3.5 years in total.

There would be 7 Seals, 6 Trumpets, 7 Thunders, and then the 7th Trumpet to bring time to a close. This time is the final harvest mentioned in Matthew 13.

 

[JeffA]

One close observation in your post, yet I have a few.

1. we can do both prepare and evangelize.
2. Our Opinion of The Gospel preached to all creatures then the end is completely in God's knowledge, not ours. WE are to occupy til Him comes not to continue until we think we are done.


5 Many will come “in Jesus' Name”, saying that Jesus is the Christ. Deceiving many. (paraphrased)
The Paraphrase here changed the context of the verse. was the underline a paraphrase or an understanding of the verse?

1. Agreed
2. Agreed

5 Many will come in My (Jesus speaking of himself) name, saying I (Jesus speaking of himself) am Christ, deceiving many.

It's the grammar. There are no quotes intended for "I am Christ".
Otherwise, it would say "saying they are Christ" or "claiming to be Christ".

 

[Amanuensis]

OK. we are in agreement on this.
We should be of one accord/purpose.
I am not in favor of "repeat after me" prayers.
Prayers are a private matter of the heart. You, and others, do not need to hear my words.

BTW. I'm not a member of the AG Church. I bring my music ministry to them on saturday evenings.
I see and hear many things that I disagree with. Maybe I learn something. Maybe I teach something.

OK I understand. Many AG churches will have corporate prayer time that is not something we teach people how to do, but sort of just happens organically. It's not an AG thing, it is not unique to AG churches.

Everyone will be spread across the room in whatever position they prefer, some kneeling, some sitting, some standing, some pacing in the corners or some space somewhere, and then they will pray as they feel lead by the Spirit. Someone will speak out loud enough where everyone hears and they might pray for a certain outreach the church is planning, others get in agreement and pray with them or, they may even add to that prayer when the first person has finished, and then everyone may go back to their own praying or someone might lead out with another request.

Some churches that are larger will do this with an open mic where people take turns praying at the mic and others get in agreement with them. No one says, "repeat after me." And sometimes no one is praying at the mic or leading out in a specific request but everyone just prays and then the gifts of the Spirit will manifest and during these times the Holy Spirit will speak like when they were gathered and praying in Jerusalem and the Holy Spirit spoke to send Barnabas and Saul on a mission.

There are various forms of corporate prayer like this but many churches know nothing about this.

I think it was a common occurrence and a main reason that the early church met together. Many churches have lost that early church culture and need to discover it since it was God's plan that they meet and pray together like this in addition to their own individual prayer time. Jesus tried to get his disciples to join him in praying but they just feel asleep until after they received the Holy Spirit and after that they were praying together every day.

 

[Rondonmon]

Well, I don't want to get into a discussion on the "Rapture" in this thread but I agree with you that Rev. 6 and Mat 4-14 describe what is leading up to Daniel's 70th week. The 5th seal could be the time of the beginning of that week, maybe?
Mat 15 certainly is in the middle of the week.

Close to it, its actually the AoD at the 1290 (Dan. 12:11-12), which is 30 days before the 1260 middle of the week. The 5th Seal, 1st Seal and 6th Seal are all opened basically at the same time, its jut Jesus prophesying what is about to befall mankind when God's Wrath hits at the 1260 Event (Trumps 1-4), and the Anti-Christ goes forth conquering hen God's Wrath falls but WHY? Because God takes out 1/3 of the world for him, and the chaos from the asteroid strike makes his conquering seem under the radar until after he has conquered Israel and the Whole Mediterranean Sea Region.

All the Seals are broken right before the Jews Flee Judea at the 1290, in Rev. 6, then in Rev. 7 we see the 144,000 (3-5 million Jews) fleeing Judea, the Angel is told to HOLD UP the four winds (Judgments) until the 144,000 are sealed in their heads, and is old to HURT NOT the Trees, Seas nor the Earth until they are sealed. What does the Trumps hurt? The Trees, Seas and the Trumps !! THEN........We see the 7th Seal opened in Rev. 8, because Rev. 8 is where the Wrath of God hits. Not n Rev. 6, those are prophetic in nature only. We can see that in the Trumps, 1.) Fire comes in first of the disintegrating asteroid via Trump #1. 2.) Trump #2 is the IM PACT. 3.) Trump #3 is the Poisonous Fallout (Wormwood) and finally we see this: 4.) Trump #4 is the skies growing dark via all the soke from the 1/3 of the worlds trees burning, the grasses all burning, thus houses will burn etc. and the jet stream will put this smoke all around the world, and the skies will grow dark, the moon will look blood red because of all the fires and the red hue they will put off. This fulfills Seal #6 AND Joel 2:31.

How we formulate our understanding of the events is interesting. Everyone seems to have slightly different ideas.
For example, Rev 6:8
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Does this mean 1/4 of the earth is slain? or
Does it mean that they had POWER over 1/4 of the earth, and the killing, etc. was going on within that scope?

It's an interesting discussion. I've been on both sides. I don't mind switching camps if convinced to do so.

It means a 1/4 part of the "EARTH" or land he rules over. And we can see via the 7 Heads ad 10 Horns this is only Europe where he is elected (the 10 kings freely give their power un to him means he's ELECTED...I got that from the Lord last night) and the Mediterranean Sea Region. Thus he will kill a 1/4 of those under his rule. The word used in Greek means SOIL or Region being spoken about. That's is told unto us via the 7 Heads and 10 horns.

The Seals are prophesies, not actual events. Not Judgments, not from Jesus or the Anti-Crist, just Jesus foretelling future events. As in to be seen in 30 days or so.

 

[birdie]

I do believe that, as the Body of Christ, we should be focused on “preparation” more than “evangelizing” in this day and age. We are rapidly approaching the “Day of the Lord”.

I am going to lay out my understanding of these scriptures and invite commentary to the effect of edification or correction. My faith is in Christ alone so it will not offend me if I am shown to misunderstand the scriptures. It can only increase my knowledge and understanding.

This topic, specifically is Matthew 24:3-14 and Revelation 6:1-11

Mat 24:4 Jesus' warns against being deceived.

5 Many will come “in Jesus' Name”, saying that Jesus is the Christ. Deceiving many. (paraphrased)

I understand that this passage can include the notion that there will be “false Christs”, too.
That may well be, but, it CERTAINLY refers to deception WITHIN the Church.

Jesus said “IN MY NAME” (refers to himself) and saying “I AM the CHRIST” (again referring to himself). There are no quotes”” in scripture. He could have said conclusively that people would claim to be the Christ. The passage would read more like “saying that THEY are the Christ”.

Rev 6:1-2 The Lamb opens the first seal, the White horse goes forth to conquer (overcome). The rider is given a Bow and a victor's crown.

There are 2 “Main” schools of thought on this.

1. The White Horse is the Antichrist.
   
2. The White Horse is Jesus.

Neither of these are true. We can look to Zechariah for an explanation of the Horses:

Zech 1:7-10
7 Upon the four and twentieth day of the eleventh month, which is the month Sebat, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the Lord unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet, saying,
8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white.
9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be.
10And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the Lord hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.

And Zech 6:1-5
1 And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass.
2 In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;
3 And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.
4 Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord?
5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

So, I understand the “Horses” to be those spirits sent forth for God's purposes.
This means that the White Horse is neither Jesus, nor Antichrist.

I do, however, believe that Jesus' “Olivet Discourse” is pointing to the 4 seals of Revelation. It matches too closely to dismiss.

The rider of the White Horse is the Spirit of “the spreading of the Gospel” that is riding out to conquer (overcome) and wears a victor's crown (Stephanos).

Jesus is warning not to be deceived or led astray from the mission of the Disciples/Apostles.

This brings us to the point that the White Horse begins his ride IMMEDIATELY after Christ's victory on the cross.
I support this in 2 ways:

1. The Olivet Discourse CLEARLY describes a timeframe longer than a 7 year period. In fact, not until the Gospel has been delivered to EVERY Nation, will the END come.
   
2. Rev 5 (let the reader understand) my emphasis

Rev 5 clearly shows a scene in Heaven where all are distressed that none is worthy to open the scroll.
SUDDENLY, the Lamb appears and is worthy. This happened immediately upon Jesus' resurrection and overcoming death. The Lamb then takes the scroll and opens the first seal. Notice that he did NOT wait 2000 years. Jesus began opening the seals immediately upon his victory. Remember, he had to become “worthy” before he could do so. There is no scripture connecting the 1st seal with the beginning of Daniel's 70th week.

It is important to note that the NT Book is called “The Revelation of Jesus Christ” and NOT “The revelation of Daniel's 70th week”.

To keep it short, my understanding is that the opening of the seals began at Jesus' resurrection.

In my estimation, the 5th seal would be more contemporary to the beginning of the 7 years as it seems to suggest a “demarcation point” to tell the martyrs (up to that time) that the final week is beginning.

So, really, the 6th seal might be the first one that we “recognize”.

As Jesus said:
Mat 24:15-22
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: Daniel)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

In closing, I believe that the Gospel HAS been preached to all Nations and the END is near.
My Pastor thinks that “the gospel must be preached to every living soul”. Not true. Jesus will make sure that all who can be saved, will be.


My love to you all. Please, let us Prepare! For He surely will come soon!

Hi JeffA. Thanks for your post. I enjoyed that you pointed out that horses have a heavenly spirits meaning in the Bible in Zech 6. Take a look at Zech 10:3 which further explains horses: "for the LORD of hosts hath visited his flock the house of Judah, and hath made them as his goodly horse in the battle. " The fact that horses are a picture of Jerusalem and the surroundings (the flock of the house of Judah in this verse - to show Jerusalem and the widest possible usage of the term) shows that horses are pictures of believers. Judah is a picture of believers as is Jerusalem in the Bible. All true believers are covered in the term. Believers have God's spirit and so the horses (the believers) are also referred to as spirits in Zech 6, the verse you noted. You are right to note the Matthew 24 passage showing that people will be using Christ's name but will not be from Christ. The four horses seem to show the progress of the gospel in that respect. The white horse shows Christ conquering souls for the kingdom by the Spirit as the new converts share the gospel. The second horse shows the division that the word of the gospel brings between those who are saved and those who do not receive the gospel. The third horse shows that the gospel balances for reality those who proclaim the gospel to weight whether they have fallen away or not, and it says to not hurt those who are true believers. The fourth horse shows that those who are true believers are dead with Christ, not understood by the world and rejected by them who cannot hear the gospel that they have. Since the true believers and their true gospel is rejected but the world the next verse shows that they have been beheaded in parable language. The non-believers do not want Christ to be the head.

 

[DavidTree]

IMHO
It is fitting, and opposes no scripture, to believe that the very first seal of the Revelation of Jesus Christ is the sending forth of the Truth and Righteousness of the Gospel. In fact, the Gospel was (and is) spreading throughout the world. This describes what the horse's function is according to Zechariah.
The fact that Jesus warns of the deception and False Prophets is directly related to the spreading of the Gospel.
The "conquering" and "overcoming" equates to the winning of souls through the spreading of His Word.

If you believe that the white horse and rider (itself) symbolizes antichrists and false prophets, so be it.
We still arrive at the same place. I just visualize it differently. It's still about the corruption of the Church.
If you think the problem is people like Jim Jones or David Koresh, just listen to modern day "MEGA" Preachers.

It fits NO WHERE in the Gospel or OT or NT Letters or Revelation = as you erroneously interpret/claim.

The LORD covered this Truth in HIS Gospel, in the OT and in the NT Letters, and in Revelation Itself = READ chapters 1 & 19

The fact that Jesus warns of deception and false christs is directly related to the White Horse with Rider/Crown/Bow.

The Rider/Crown Bow is a judgment of deception that is upon the world for rejection of the TRUE MESSIAH/SAVIOR.
This is easily SEEN in the very words of the LORD Jesus Christ in HIS Gospel.

“I do not receive honor from men. But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you.
A.) I have come in My Father’s name, (hello JeffA)
B.) and you do not receive Me;
C.) if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. - John 5:41

Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing on His right hand and His left. And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab king of Israel to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner.
Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’
The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’
And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.’
Therefore look!
The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”
2 Chronichles 18:18

 

[Phoneman-777]

Okay. I can see your reasoning.
Now you're gonna make me get out my "Daniel" and do some work.
I'm retired now and have an aversion to work
It won't be tonight but I'll chew on this for a while.
Thanks for sharing!

You're welcome, my friend