Reformed Theology - Penal Substitution and the Imputed Righteousness of Christ

[Ariel82]

Her husband was dead and David married her. He was no longer committing adultery.

exactly. therefore he didn't really give up anything did he? he didn't really repent of having sex with her, he just married her. yes, He repented of having murdered her husband and of bedding her while he was alive but you try and use that example to say that David forsake sin when its not true. He still sinned, its in the Bible. that is why he needed to repent. Just read psalms. David was not sinless, he was blameless for God did not impute the sin to him.

What are you attempting to do? You are trying to imply that David was in an ongoing state of adultery in order to use that as an excuse that other people can be in an ongoing state of adultery/fornication etc. right?

nope, is that what the demons like whispering in your ear so you can ignore the real issues such as Christ's imputed righteousness and how Jesus died on the cross for remission of sins?

You dig through the Bible seeking to justify ongoing sin.

lie. hope you repent.

When the Bible is plain...

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.


What do you do with Isa 55:7 and the other passages which say the same thing?

Amen. Let them do it but not by their own power but God's power and His Grace... wait that is another word you don't comprehend.

I cannot figure it out. Do you push it to the back of your mind and not think about it? Or do you think it applies to someone else? Or is it a false statement in your mind? I would really be interested in how your mind works in regards to these things.

doubtful, since you would rather create strawmen to torch.

so are you telling me that I'm wicked and unrighteous?

cuz that seems to be what you are implying with the verse and your following statements.

 

[psychomom]

David was not sinless, he was blameless for God did not impute the sin to him.

selah.


lie. hope you repent.

lol, Ariel. thanks, i needed that.

 

[starfield]

What? You accuse me of lying???

You say God will not accept us until the sin has ceased
Sin is transgression of the law

The bible says repentance, which is turning away from sin and turning to God by faith, precedes salvation. It is wrought by the Holy Spirit so it's not upholding the law in one's own strength as you claimed, neither is it works of the law. Jesus Christ and Apostle Paul preached repentance, so were they saying we should go back under the law? Absolutely not.
2 Cor 7:10- For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Until God has accepted us the Holy Spirit DOES NOT dwell in us
Therefore you preach we cease the sin before God will accept us, and therefore we cease the sin without the Spirit dwelling in us
Therefore we must uphold the law in our own strength before God will accept us

That is the truth, of the Gospel you preach
Try and twist it if you wish, but that is nevertheless the truth

The Holy Spirit's ministry is to convict unbelievers of their sins, of righteousness and judgment, not indwell them. It is believers that have the Holy Spirit in them and are sealed unto the day of redemption. In essence His convicting work on unbelievers is outward thereby placing them in a position to receive Christ, while His work (sanctifying, comforting, etc) on believers is inward.

Paul was not telling unbelievers that their bodies were God's temple and the Holy Spirit indwells them, rather he was telling believers that the Holy Spirit dwells in them thus they mustn't defile their bodies with sin, they must live a life of holiness.
1 Cor 3:16-17
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Cor 6:19-20
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

 

[mark54]

The bible says repentance, which is turning away from sin and turning to God by faith, precedes salvation. It is wrought by the Holy Spirit so it's not upholding the law in one's own strength as you claimed, neither is it works of the law. Jesus Christ and Apostle Paul preached repentance, so were they saying we should go back under the law? Absolutely not.
2 Cor 7:10- For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.




The Holy Spirit's ministry is to convict unbelievers of their sins, of righteousness and judgment, not indwell them. It is believers that have the Holy Spirit in them and are sealed unto the day of redemption. In essence His convicting work on unbelievers is outward thereby placing them in a position to receive Christ, while His work (sanctifying, comforting, etc) on believers is inward.

Paul was not telling unbelievers that their bodies were God's temple and the Holy Spirit indwells them, rather he was telling believers that the Holy Spirit dwells in them thus they mustn't defile their bodies with sin, they must live a life of holiness.
1 Cor 3:16-17
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Cor 6:19-20
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

You say God will not accept us until the sin has ceased
Sin is transgression of the law

Until God has accepted us the Holy Spirit DOES NOT dwell in us
Therefore you preach we cease the sin before God will accept us, and therefore we cease the sin without the Spirit dwelling in us
Therefore we must uphold the law in our own strength before God will accept us

That is the truth, of the Gospel you preach
Try and twist it if you wish, but that is nevertheless the truth


H0wever you like to try and rationalise it, the above is biblically correct

 

[Elin]

Let's peel off the fluff and get to some of the bottom line issues.

Point 1.
Penal Substitution is a doctrine which was birthed out of the Protestant Reformation when certain Reformers added a Judicial Aspect to the Anselmian Satisfaction Model of the Atonement.

Are you sure about that?
Have you ever read Ro 3:25-26?

"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of propitiation (atonement) through faith in his blood.

He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had passed over

(left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand (OT)--he did it to demonstrate his justice

at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies." (Ro 3:25-26)

Let's examine the passage in question...

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Rom 3:25 Notes... Jesus was the propitiatory (mercy seat) offering whose blood purges the sacrifice of sin thus making it acceptable to God.

That makes less sense than your senseless earlier response to Ro 5:18-19, here.

Now let me get this straight.

The sacrifice of Jesus, which remits my sin, was cleansed by the blood of Jesus.

Jesus was cleansed by Jesus.

That's called an absurdity.

Rom 3:26 notes... Jesus justifies those who believe (trust and yield) as opposed to those who do not believe (reject His counsel and thus refuse to yield). When we abide in Christ the light of God is manifest THROUGH us and the result is the production of good fruit.

You didn't address what declared God's righteousness.

You didn't address how God was both just and the justifier.

So you do not, because you cannot, exegete Ro 3:25-26.

Since you cannot, the exegesis of Ro 3:25-26 is provided in the following answers to the questions regarding it:

1) What did God "pass over" the sins committed beforehand (OT)?

-----Penalty on their sin was "passed over," their sin was left unpunished. (penal)

2) The "what passed over" (penalty) consisted precisely of?

-----Eternal punishment due on their sin.

3) How did the "what passed over" (penalty) demonstrate God's justice?

-----Justice requires a penalty for law breaking.

4) For what did Jesus' sacrificial death atone?

-----The law-breaking of all those who believe in his propitiation for their sin (of breaking God's laws). (atonement)

5) How does Jesus' sacrificial death atone (make reparation, amends) for it?

-----He paid the penalty due for their law-breaking. (subsitution)

6) What is the connection between his atonement and my faith in it (his blood)?

-----The forgiveness of sin, purchased by Jesus' sacrifice of propitiation paying my penalty, is applied to me only by faith

in his propitiation, and that forgiveness is salvation, from the wrath of God at the final judgment.

The word of God in Ro 3:25-26 clearly presents substitutional penal atonement.

You really should not be trying to discuss the Bible when you cannot support your view with sound exegesis of Scripture, in light of all the Scriptures.

You are simply defending the views of men, and not the Scriptures.

You should be in an unorthodox theology discussion forum, not in a Bible discussion forum.

 

[mark54]

"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of propitiation (atonement) through faith in his blood.

He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had passed over

(left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand (OT)--he did it to demonstrate his justice

at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies." (Ro 3:25-26)

.

Absolutely, that is what the sin committed beforehand refers to, I liked the rest of the post too!

 

[zone]

"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of propitiation (atonement) through faith in his blood.

He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had passed over

(left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand (OT)--he did it to demonstrate his justice

at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies." (Ro 3:25-26)

So you do not, because you cannot, exegete Ro 3:25-26.

Since you cannot, the exegesis of Ro 3:25-26 is provided in the following answers to the questions regarding it:

1) What did God "pass over" the sins committed beforehand (OT)?

-----Penalty on their sin was "passed over," their sin was left unpunished. (penal)

2) The "what passed over" (penalty) consisted precisely of?

-----Eternal punishment due on their sin.

3) How did the "what passed over" (penalty) demonstrate God's justice?

-----Justice requires a penalty for law breaking.

4) For what did Jesus' sacrificial death atone?

-----The law-breaking of all those who believe in his propitiation for their sin (of breaking God's laws). (atonement)

5) How does Jesus' sacrificial death atone (make reparation, amends) for it?

-----He paid the penalty due for their law-breaking. (subsitution)

6) What is the connection between his atonement and my faith in it (his blood)?

-----The forgiveness of sin, purchased by Jesus' sacrifice of propitiation paying my penalty, is applied to me only by faith

in his propitiation, and that forgiveness is salvation, from the wrath of God at the final judgment.

The word of God in Ro 3:25-26 clearly presents substitutional penal atonement.

You really should not be trying to discuss the Bible when you cannot support your view with sound exegesis of Scripture, in light of all the Scriptures.

You are simply defending the views of men, and not the Scriptures.

You should be in an unorthodox theology discussion forum, not in a Bible discussion forum.

great post Elin

were all these things accomplished for Daniel's people as per God's Promises (Daniel 9)?

ty....zone

 

[Angela53510]

Just a simple question? Why are the sins of lust always seen as the big sins, when God condemns pride so many times?

"Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall." Prov. 16:18

"The pride of your heart has deceived you, you who live in the clefts of the rock, in your lofty dwelling, who say in your heart, “Who will bring me down to the ground?”" Obadiah 1:3

"This shall be their lot in return for their pride, because they taunted and boasted against the people of the Lord of hosts." Zephaniah 2:10

"For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, [SUP]22 [/SUP]coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. [SUP]23 [/SUP]All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.” Mark 7:21-23 (Big sin list - pride is in there, along with a few other things we like to minimize like foolishness!)

"For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world." 1 John 2:16

It seems to me like someone is very full of themselves here. They are full of pride that they have uncovered the fatal flaws of Christianity. But if they are right, then how to they get away from the incredible pride - a terrible sin they seem to have been committing for pages and pages on this thread alone?

We won't even get into anger - ok, I will!!

"[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,[SUP]20 [/SUP]idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of ANGER, rivalries, dissensions,divisions, [SUP]21 [/SUP]envy,drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience,kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [SUP]23 [/SUP]gentleness,self-control; against such things there is no law." Gal. 5:19-23.

Just not seeing the fruits of the Spirit. I would think that would be the best sign of whether a person was really saved. By preaching we are only saved of the sins before salvation, you are causing many to stumble. I asked that question as a newbie Christian. I searched the Scriptures. I had repented of many sins. It took years to bring some sins (like pride and anger under control). But in the end, I worked more on the fruits, because by having them in my life, the sins seemed to fall away. I guess that is because it was the Holy Spirit leading me and doing the incredible work of transformation that I so desperately needed.

I agree repentance is not preached enough. But without understanding that we can come before God and repent daily, 1 John 1:9 (so nicely copied by many) you are leading people to turn away from a God that cannot be pleased.

So please repent of your pride and anger, and listen to the verses hear and do not deceive and try and discourage people who are in the flesh, but God has saved and is transforming. That word in the Greek in Romans 12:2 - metaporphouthe (μεταμορφούσθε) is in the Present Imperative Passive in Greek. That means it is a command, but it is something God does to us. A better way to say it might be ""let yourselves be transformed by God." God does the work!! If we let him of course!

As someone said, I think some people need to study Greek and Hebrew to really understand what the Bible is really saying, before making up doctrines in which WE have to do the saving, once we are saved. At least, that is what I thought rose to the top of the pile from all the pages of quotes, and authors and scriptures verses I read by one poster.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You say God will not accept us until the sin has ceased
Sin is transgression of the law

Until God has accepted us the Holy Spirit DOES NOT dwell in us
Therefore you preach we cease the sin before God will accept us, and therefore we cease the sin without the Spirit dwelling in us
Therefore we must uphold the law in our own strength before God will accept us

That is the truth, of the Gospel you preach
Try and twist it if you wish, but that is nevertheless the truth


H0wever you like to try and rationalise it, the above is biblically correct

Oh, but she can be so proud she stopped sin of her own strength and earned the gift of eternal life..

God must be so proud..

NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Elin]

great post Elin

were all these things accomplished for Daniel's people as per God's Promises (Daniel 9)?

ty....zone

Prophecy's not my thang. . .

 

[mark54]

Oh, but she can be so proud she stopped sin of her own strength and earned the gift of eternal life..

God must be so proud..

NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Spurgeon thought God may have chosen faith as the conduit through which Grace came because it must cut our boasting.

You know EG I was brought up in a fundamentalist, 'bible believing church'. They said they stood full square on the bible, it was the bottom line, and some other churches thought they had an arrogance
about them/they believed they knew more biblical truth than anyone else.
But never once in that church did I hear the core of the Gospel Paul was given to preach. Basically, if you didn't drink, smoke, swear, have vextra marital affairs, if you dressed well, tithed, and knew the literal words of scripture, attended all the church meetings you were fine, that was proof you were a Christian, and if you were well educated that was the icing on the cake.
You know what, the people who were responsible for Christ being crucified would have past all those tests with flying colours, and yet Jesus said those people did not even know his Father. Many do have a strange idea of what their righteousness is before God.

 

[zone]

Spurgeon thought God may have chosen faith as the conduit through which Grace came because it must cut our boasting.

You know EG I was brought up in a fundamentalist, 'bible believing church'. They said they stood full square on the bible, it was the bottom line, and some other churches thought they had an arrogance
about them/they believed they knew more biblical truth than anyone else.
But never once in that church did I hear the core of the Gospel Paul was given to preach. Basically, if you didn't drink, smoke, swear, have vextra marital affairs, if you dressed well, tithed, and knew the literal words of scripture, attended all the church meetings you were fine, that was proof you were a Christian, and if you were well educated that was the icing on the cake.
You know what, the people who were responsible for Christ being crucified would have past all those tests with flying colours, and yet Jesus said those people did not even know his Father. Many do have a strange idea of what their righteousness is before God.

whatever happened to our friend VW?
have you been in touch, at all?

 

[mark54]

whatever happened to our friend VW?
have you been in touch, at all?

You just can't leave me alone can you
You know what
I've probably let God down far more than you have
I wouldn't have the intellect you do
But then, I do have someting you don't have
I don't have to look to scholars and theologians to learn, nor do I rely or trust on my little grey cells to learn the spiritual

So what difference does this bring about between us?

Well, I don't have to ignore the plainest of scripture directly relating to a subject. I don't have to try and dismiss it
I don't have to refuse to accept requiirements of belief Christ Himself laid down unto salvation by adding to them.

Oh there's another difference between us

I don't spend my time reading up on the whore of babylon, the pre trib rapture, fillique, the noahide laws, the beast with ten horns etc, but to each their own

BTW, you got a car who's your friend

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Spurgeon thought God may have chosen faith as the conduit through which Grace came because it must cut our boasting.

You know EG I was brought up in a fundamentalist, 'bible believing church'. They said they stood full square on the bible, it was the bottom line, and some other churches thought they had an arrogance
about them/they believed they knew more biblical truth than anyone else.
But never once in that church did I hear the core of the Gospel Paul was given to preach. Basically, if you didn't drink, smoke, swear, have vextra marital affairs, if you dressed well, tithed, and knew the literal words of scripture, attended all the church meetings you were fine, that was proof you were a Christian, and if you were well educated that was the icing on the cake.
You know what, the people who were responsible for Christ being crucified would have past all those tests with flying colours, and yet Jesus said those people did not even know his Father. Many do have a strange idea of what their righteousness is before God.

sounds like we grew up in the same church.. and people wonder why we HATE legalism so much!

 

[mark54]

sounds like we grew up in the same church.. and people wonder why we HATE legalism so much!

I'd like to ask your opinion on something EG as it seems we may have grown up in the same kind of church enviroment.
Some say, you can't be saved/a Chrtistian unless you understand the Gospel of grace/live it out in your life.
As a child I put my hand up at that church to become a Christian. I believed Jesus died for my sins and I repented and asked him into my life as Lord and Saviour. I immediately knew I had to live according to what God desired(which when I look back had to be His good and Holy laws) i was convicted in my heart of this

A catholic on anolther website startled me a few months ago, this is what he said.

We earnestly strive not to sin, when we do, we ask forgiveness of our sin(I know he did it through a priest, but not important as to the point here) we are then forgiven, and for a time we are in a state of sinlessness. We strive to remain in this state and not to sin, but inevitably the sin returns, we must then seek forgiveness for the sin, or we are in danger of losing our salvation and ending up in hell. We are forgiven, and the process starts again.
That is exactly how I viewed it in the fundamentalist biblie believing church of my youth. Yet I was sincere, and wanted so much to please God and not sin/live as he wanted me to. I had accepted Christ into my life, under the truth of scripture/the Gospel, but then in effect lived under law

This is my question. Was I unsaved at that time due to me not
understanding the Gosepl of Grace? If I had of died, before I knew Grace, would I have gone to hell? Or could I have been saved, and gone to Heaven(at the resurrection of the dead)

 

[Skinski7]

"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of propitiation (atonement) through faith in his blood.

He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had passed over

(left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand (OT)--he did it to demonstrate his justice

at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies." (Ro 3:25-26)

So you do not, because you cannot, exegete Ro 3:25-26.

Since you cannot, the exegesis of Ro 3:25-26 is provided in the following answers to the questions regarding it:

1) What did God "pass over" the sins committed beforehand (OT)?

-----Penalty on their sin was "passed over," their sin was left unpunished. (penal)

2) The "what passed over" (penalty) consisted precisely of?

-----Eternal punishment due on their sin.

3) How did the "what passed over" (penalty) demonstrate God's justice?

-----Justice requires a penalty for law breaking.

4) For what did Jesus' sacrificial death atone?

-----The law-breaking of all those who believe in his propitiation for their sin (of breaking God's laws). (atonement)

5) How does Jesus' sacrificial death atone (make reparation, amends) for it?

-----He paid the penalty due for their law-breaking. (subsitution)

6) What is the connection between his atonement and my faith in it (his blood)?

-----The forgiveness of sin, purchased by Jesus' sacrifice of propitiation paying my penalty, is applied to me only by faith

in his propitiation, and that forgiveness is salvation, from the wrath of God at the final judgment.

The word of God in Ro 3:25-26 clearly presents substitutional penal atonement.

You really should not be trying to discuss the Bible when you cannot support your view with sound exegesis of Scripture, in light of all the Scriptures.

You are simply defending the views of men, and not the Scriptures.

You should be in an unorthodox theology discussion forum, not in a Bible discussion forum.

You cannot see past the blinders of your theology.

One example is this...

Rom 3:25 Notes... Jesus was the propitiatory (mercy seat) offering whose blood purges the sacrifice of sin thus making it acceptable to God. That makes less sense than your senseless earlier response to Ro 5:18-19, here.

Now let me get this straight.

The sacrifice of Jesus, which remits my sin, was cleansed by the blood of Jesus.

Jesus was cleansed by Jesus.

That's called an absurdity.

What I write makes no sense to you and your mind twists it into something else completely and then you call the twisted version an absurdity.

The repentant sinner is the living sacrifice who approaches God with a true heart in the new and living way (as a living sacrifice) and Jesus Christ is the mercy seat (Propitiation literally means Mercy Seat) and it is the blood of Christ that is poured over us the living sacrifice which washes us of all defilement and leaves us with a clear conscience before God.

That is what I meant. The sacrificial system was a type and shadow of how one is reconciled to God. We approach God through repentance and faith seeking to be purged of our previous rebellion, we do not approach God still in our rebellion for an ongoing lifetime of cleansing, which is why the Bible teaches that one is not to sin willfully against the Spirit of grace. Jesus died once for sin in order that we be cleansed and returned to a right relationship with God, He did not die in order to provide a license for ongoing rebellion.

You say that "He paid the penalty" but that is YOU saying that, not the Bible.

You cannot find a single scripture in the Bible that says that Jesus "paid the sin wages that you earned." The Bible says that Jesus bought YOU. Jesus purchased YOU. Jesus did not pay your fine, that is a doctrine of men. That teaching does not harmonise with Scripture and that teaching is not in Scripture and that is why you cannot quote a single passage which plainly teaches it. All you can do is quote a passage and then state rhetoric where YOU claim it says it. Human beings do that all the time.

There is also not a single scripture in the Bible which teaches that future sins are forgiven in advance which is an integral tenet of the Penal Substitution doctrine. There are two scriptures I know of that specifically speak of PAST sins being remitted or purged.

It is also common sense that it is only past sins that are forgiven because the Bible teaches repentance as a condition for forgiveness. You cannot repent and forsake sins that you are going to commit next week. Forsaking something means you leave it, it does not mean you go and do it again.

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

These are all points you cannot address. You have to ignore them or twist them into strawmen.

My words are simple.

Forsake evil and learn to do good. If the unrighteous man will forsake his unrighteousness and turn to God then God will forgive that person. Simple.

There is no forgiveness while the rebellion continues. That is the bottom line of my message.

Repent and yield to Jesus Christ. God has given us the gift of eternal life IN Christ. One cannot be IN sin and IN Christ at the same time.

We either sin unto death or we obey unto righteousness. One or the other. Black or white. No gray area.

One master, not two. Choose you this day whom you will serve is the message of the Bible.

 

[starfield]

You say God will not accept us until the sin has ceased
Sin is transgression of the law

Until God has accepted us the Holy Spirit DOES NOT dwell in us
Therefore you preach we cease the sin before God will accept us, and therefore we cease the sin without the Spirit dwelling in us
Therefore we must uphold the law in our own strength before God will accept us

That is the truth, of the Gospel you preach
Try and twist it if you wish, but that is nevertheless the truth


H0wever you like to try and rationalise it, the above is biblically correct

Would either you or Eternally-grateful show me passages that say every unbeliever is indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

 

[SarahM777]

Skinki,

Can you answer this?

Could you please explain this? Why did Jesus pray this after He has said this to HIS DISCIPLES right after His transfiguration and they down from the mountain and they can not cast a demon

Matthew 17

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.

Later Jesus then prays this the night He is to be betrayed,

John 17
17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Please note this is in the garden,Jesus says they are all His He has not lost a single one expect for the son of perdition. This is before all of the disciples flee and BEFORE PETER WILL DENY HIM THREE TIMES and Jesus knows that they will do it yet He stills prays the above,yet He still says He has not lost one of them. Not only that but Peter has implied that Jesus is lying about him denying Jesus. Where does the scripture show Peter repented of that BEFORE Jesus prays that prayer? Why does He say that even though He knows they will do what they are about to do? Can anyone show me where they had come to the point of "being" sinless at this point and yet Jesus says they 'kept" his words? What is the point that Jesus is trying to get across?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Would either you or Eternally-grateful show me passages that say every unbeliever is indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

take your pick

2 cor 1:22 He (God) Who has sealed us and has GIVEN us the SPIRIT in our hearts as a guarantee.

Eph 1: 13 - 14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit, By whom you WERE SEALED until the DAY OF REDEMPTION

 

[cfultz3]

take your pick

2 cor 1:22 He (God) Who has sealed us and has GIVEN us the SPIRIT in our hearts as a guarantee.

Eph 1: 13 - 14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit, By whom you WERE SEALED until the DAY OF REDEMPTION

EG,

She said 'unbelievers' (children of wrath)