Refuting The Cessationism Doctrine: Spiritual Gifts, Tongues, Miracles Haven’t Ceased Since Pentecost!!

[7seasrekeyed]

The tower of Babel is also something we ought not to emulate.

oh?

well then stop

 

[CS1]

Don't put words in my mouth.....ever. I NEVER seek after a sign as it is perfectly evident that they have ceased. I was merely using not so subtle sarcasm to call you and the rest of the so-called Pentecostals to legitimize their bombastic claims. And BTW, it is the Pentecostals who are seeking after a sign....by definition and violition.

So just post the videos and put your money where your mouth is and we can end this debate once and for all like gentlemen.

You must have me mistaken for Simon the sorcerer. For me, the debate has been ended. I do not need to put any money, but I will give one of the truths of God's healing and protection and the power of prayer. I have personally witnessed, the testimony of pastor Glen Berteau. take it or leave it.

Are you not the one challenging Christians to post videos of miracles? yes, you are. It is funny you were only using sarcasm and get your feeling hurt when you are called on scoffing and mocking. I too can use sarcasm but prefer to tell the truth.

And by the way, the answer is no, Pentecostals do not seek after a sign, we believe that signs follow the believer as The Lord Jesus said they would in Mark 16. Your definition is wrong. The right definition is one who is saying as the Pharisees did ""IF you be, or "show us a sign so that we will believe"in the context of one seeking after a sign. They too were sarcastic

God bless enjoy the wonderful testimony of the Pastor

 

[presidente]

Obedience to scripture is why tongues with so called interpretation and prophecy are not found in biblically sound churches.

I prefer clergy that is educated to teach and preach as opposed to every one who may have a theology they wish to expound that is not orthodox. Look around this place and see how many folks including many women hold opinions on scripture that are outside the mainstream norm.

Corinth was a church in error and discord not one to be emulated.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Obedience to scripture is why tongues with so called interpretation and prophecy are not found in biblically sound churches.

Obedience to tradition. Scripture says 'Let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge.' What scripture passages do you have for the cessationist version of the church meeting?

I prefer clergy that is educated to teach and preach as opposed to every one who may have a theology they wish to expound that is not orthodox. Look around this place and see how many folks including many women hold opinions on scripture that are outside the mainstream norm.

Is independent Baptist 'the mainstream norm'? Does 'mainstream norm' determine truth. Luther bucked against the mainstream norm and so did some early Baptists. If clergy had to have Bible college or seminary degrees, would the Baptist movement have grown nearly as big as it is now?

I Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Hebrews 10:24-25
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Corinth was a church in error and discord not one to be emulated.

The scripture is profitable for doctrine, including I Corinthians, including 'the commandments of the Lord' related to church gatherings.
For the cause of Christ
Roger[/QUOTE]

 

[notuptome]

Obedience to tradition. Scripture says 'Let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge.' What scripture passages do you have for the cessationist version of the church meeting?

Follow the example of the Jewish order of worship. Ones were selected to go in order to read the scriptures. One could then comment on them usually one who was educated to teach the scriptures and traditions.

Is independent Baptist 'the mainstream norm'? Does 'mainstream norm' determine truth. Luther bucked against the mainstream norm and so did some early Baptists. If clergy had to have Bible college or seminary degrees, would the Baptist movement have grown nearly as big as it is now?

I Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Hebrews 10:24-25
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Got to go with what I'm familiar with in this respect.

The scripture is profitable for doctrine, including I Corinthians, including 'the commandments of the Lord' related to church gatherings.

True but some scripture show error so it can be avoided.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

Firstly, your theology at heart is WoF theology in my opinion because, while you hint at being cautious about blaming sufferers, then you claim that lack of faith is, in fact, related to healings.

I referred to sayings of Christ and Paul. Are you saying they are 'word of faith.' Paul wrote about the 'word of faith', but he wasn't endorsing all the teachings that have come out of Oklahoma and Texas.

As a Christian, you aren't allowed not to like stuff if Jesus said it.

Matthew 9:29
Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

Matthew 15:28
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Luke 5:20
And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Luke 8:47-49
47 And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.
48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.

Acts 14:8-10
8 And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.

Are these 'Word of Faith' verses? I am in theological error for believing them?

So, you are really trying to speak out of both sides of your mouth, which is what I find true about many charismatics and Pentecostals.

I think you need to develop an ability to make fine distinctions on certain specific issues.

Let's say someone tells you he hates his job because one product he sells is e-vaping products which a lot of young people like. He doesn't feel right about it, but doesn't know how he can support his family if he quits because he doesn't have a degree, and his job pays well. Now, suppose you were to say, "Have you prayed for a new job?" He's a new believer, and it hadn't occurred to him to pray for his specific needs. He prays the Lord's prayer, for world peace, and for other people.

So let's imagine you tell him he can pray for those practical needs, too. So let me ask you. in this scenario, is this man sinning because he did not ask God for a different job that would support his family? Is he sinning because he had not asked in faith for it?

Additionally, there is no doubt that believers continue to experience effects of the Curse in different ways, because eventually THEY ALL DIE PHYSICALLY.

Okay, that's true. We can use some theological reasoning about the curse based on the fact that the saints will be raised immoral. But does the Bible actually say the curse is removed? Does believing God heals ailments in the meantime mean that one has less faith for the resurrection?

And, there are several believers with mental disease...and almost all have bodily ailments...and many wear wigs, hearing aids, and eye glasses.

Eye glasses on the young are often the result of the eyes adjusting to specific use-- looking at stuff up close like screens.

They can claim they are not affected by the curse, all they want, but even the best charismatics and Pentecostals suffer all these things.

Rarely if ever have I heard someone say they are not affected by the curse. I did meet one woman who said she'd dated Carmen who believed if you really had faith for it, you could have physical immortality. I told her the Bible teaches that the saints will be resurrected and the remaining saints who do not 'sleep' will put on immortality.

Some even deny they are sick when they are sick due to their kooky beliefs.

That's common with the WOF movement.

 

[presidente]

Follow the example of the Jewish order of worship. Ones were selected to go in order to read the scriptures. One could then comment on them usually one who was educated to teach the scriptures and traditions.

Should we put Jewish tradition over the words of Paul, what he calls 'commandments of the Lord'?

Got to go with what I'm familiar with in this respect.

Familiarity over scripture? Isn't that what keeps unbiblical practice continuing from generation to generation?

True but some scripture show error so it can be avoided.

All the epistles were written to specific congregations, but they are all also profitable for doctrine.

 

[presidente]

You must have me mistaken for Simon the sorcerer. For me, the debate has been ended. I do not need to put any money, but I will give one of the truths of God's healing and protection and the power of prayer. I have personally witnessed, the testimony of pastor Glen Berteau. take it or leave it.

He used to be my youth pastor many decades ago. I heard he was sick. What was his testimony?

 

[presidente]

How is this relevant? Do you think that the resurrection bodies of believers will have scars from their persecutions and martyrdoms? Or, do you believe Jesus is a special case?

Of course, he is a special case. They are an eternal reminder of his loving sacrifice.

So, I am not sure why you even mentioned this.

This is not proof that the effects of the Curse will be exhibited by believers after the resurrection.

It's something that came to mind when I read your comment. I wonder if Paul's 'marks of Christ', the 'stigmata' in his body will remain as battle scars, badges of honor. I don't know if the holes in Christ's body were a special case or not. I would think of them as healed scars.

 

[presidente]

Show me in this account where Jesus said this.

Quote the Scriptures.

I did it in another post before I got to this post of yours, just a few of them.

But I have to wonder how often you read the gospels if you haven't read these types of statements about the person's faith making them whole, be it unto you according to your faith, etc. It shows up quite a bit if you read through. I wonder also if cessationists just don't pay attention to stuff like that since it doesn't seem to be practically applicable to them. Of course, some cessationists seem to emphasize healing more than you do.

By the way, if Christ indicated this in one Scripture, it doesn't mean that is the determining factor in all cases. He healed apparent unbelievers sometimes.

Jesus believed His Father can heal. I did not say that Jesus could not heal apart from the individual's faith. He did raise the dead, also.

The other gigantic assumption is that Jesus' ministry is normative for all believers.

And this is a huge assumption.

Jesus said 'he that believeth in me, the works that I do shall he do also, and greater works than these shall he do'. That's a mind-boggling scripture, but it is in John.

But I think whether Jesus' ministry is normative is beside the point, since the elders are to pray the prayer of faith in James 5. James teaches about the need to pray in faith while teaching in praying for wisdom in chapter 1, also.

 

[cv5]

You must have me mistaken for Simon the sorcerer. For me, the debate has been ended. I do not need to put any money, but I will give one of the truths of God's healing and protection and the power of prayer. I have personally witnessed, the testimony of pastor Glen Berteau. take it or leave it.

Are you not the one challenging Christians to post videos of miracles? yes, you are. It is funny you were only using sarcasm and get your feeling hurt when you are called on scoffing and mocking. I too can use sarcasm but prefer to tell the truth.

And by the way, the answer is no, Pentecostals do not seek after a sign, we believe that signs follow the believer as The Lord Jesus said they would in Mark 16. Your definition is wrong. The right definition is one who is saying as the Pharisees did ""IF you be, or "show us a sign so that we will believe"in the context of one seeking after a sign. They too were sarcastic

God bless enjoy the wonderful testimony of the Pastor

Let me rephrase my position in different terms:

We all would cherish the opportunity to give God glory for these mighty works of signs and miracles. I mean this sincerely. I therefore petition you and your Church to testify to the reality and legitimacy of these manifestations of the Holy Spirit by posting videos of speaking in tongues and/or other such sign gifts for the edification of the Body and the winning of souls.
This is your obligation per the mandate of Scripture.

Thank you for your participation in this crucial matter in these last days.

 

[presidente]

Provide one other instance where the gifts came apart from their hands. (Excluding the two outpourings).

“God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?” Hebrews 2:4 (KJV 1900)

Do you have a memory loss problem?

I have often quoted to you where Timothy had a gift a received through prophecy with the laying on of hands of the elders. Paul said they that seemed to be somewhat added nothing to him. He had spiritual gifts. The only hands we know were laid on him were the hands of Ananias about the time he was healed of blindness, and the hands of the 'prophets and teachers' whose names are listed in Acts 13 who were in Antioch. After they did this, scripture begins to refer to him and Barnabas as 'apostles.'

There were also men performing excorcism, which Jesus called a sign/miracle without the laying on of hands of the apostles, and many prophets had been able to prophesy before the apostles were born.

Hebrews 2:4 does not say that all of those people who heard the Lord were the twelve apostles or that the apostles had laid hands on all of them.

 

[presidente]

Disorder at the Lords table (communion) incest and tongues. Looks like they had a full house of problems. While these things are prevalent in the modern church but I do not think we should just turn a blind eye to the. The tower of Babel is also something we ought not to emulate.

You seem to be implying that 'tongues', which the book lists among the gifts and manifestations of the scripture was a problem. Why would you think of something holy as akin to incest, if that is indeed the case? You ought to pray about this and consider whether you have such a negative attitude about certain gifts of the Spirit that it even extends to Biblical references to them.

I saw a clip recently from a preacher, Justin Peters, who argued that when 'tongue' shows up in the singular in I Corinthians 14, it is a pagan tongue. He claimed he got that from John MacArthur. The problem is, verse 28 uses the singular in instructing that a tongue be interpreted. Why would Paul want a pagan tongue interpreted to edify the body of Christ? They are probably just so anti-tongues they start to attribute even the graces of the Spirit in scripture to pagan sources. Probably that and someone got a hold of an unbelieving liberal commentary from the early 20th century. The idea that the Corinthian tongues was pagan only makes sense if you have a low view of scripture and don't believe the book was inspired.

 

[notuptome]

Should we put Jewish tradition over the words of Paul, what he calls 'commandments of the Lord'?

How did Jesus conduct Himself in the temple? He did not act the way we see in Corinth.

Familiarity over scripture? Isn't that what keeps unbiblical practice continuing from generation to generation?

You suggesting we abandon scripture because it has not worked in every situation? Not every church is acting outside of biblical norms.

All the epistles were written to specific congregations, but they are all also profitable for doctrine.

Some do teach against some behaviors. Corinthians is just one of the places where correction was needed.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

How did Jesus conduct Himself in the temple? He did not act the way we see in Corinth.

I don't think any of us would say churches should act like the Corinthian church before they got the letter. But we should follow the instructions he gave them for an orderly meeting.

Not everything from Jewish or synagogue tradition is bad or inconsistent with what Paul taught in I Corinthians 14.

But Jesus in the temple might be a good model for us for evangelism in certain contexts. The saints make up the body of Christ.

Familiarity over scripture? Isn't that what keeps unbiblical practice continuing from generation to generation?

You suggesting we abandon scripture because it has not worked in every situation? Not every church is acting outside of biblical norms.

I am including my quote because your quote obviously misrepresents what I said. I quoted scripture on what to do in church (I Corinthians 14:26. You said you would go with what is familiar in this respect.

I am suggesting you abandon what is familiar if it goes against scripture. You don't have to type a misleading response. Just chew on it for a while. Consider what the scriptures think. You don't have to think yourself right every time. If the scripture isn't what you do and isn't familiar, then meditate on it. It is okay to be quiet when you do so, instead of posting some barb, or in this last case, a misrepresentation of the other poster (my) views.

 

[bojack]

Disorder at the Lords table (communion) incest and tongues. Looks like they had a full house of problems. While these things are prevalent in the modern church but I do not think we should just turn a blind eye to the. The tower of Babel is also something we ought not to emulate.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[CS1]

Let me rephrase my position in different terms:

We all would cherish the opportunity to give God glory for these mighty works of signs and miracles. I mean this sincerely. I therefore petition you and your Church to testify to the reality and legitimacy of these manifestations of the Holy Spirit by posting videos of speaking in tongues and/or other such sign gifts for the edification of the Body and the winning of souls.
This is your obligation per the mandate of Scripture.

Thank you for your participation in this crucial matter in these last days.

Who do you think you are? You petition me and my church to testify to the reality and legitimacy of the Holy Spirit workings?

Are you a snowflake? I ask that because you are most likely a troll.

Why don't you provide the first line of proof that The Gifts of the Holy Spirit have stopped from the word of God? You can't so to discredit the word of God you attack people and a church LOL.

I do not need to provide you with anything, nada, zip. If you did not see the Testimony of Pastor Glen we are done.

You are asking the same things the Pharisees asked Jesus, Perform for me so I believe.

That is where the context of the word of Jesus found in Mark means

Mark 16:4 NLT
Only an evil, adulterous generation would demand a miraculous sign, but the only sign I will give them is the sign of the prophet Jonah.” Then Jesus left them and went away.

That is your position, not mine

I hold to this below here:

Jesus said Mark 16:17-18

17 These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” 19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

Notice the contrast of the Pharisees and your question to that what Jesus said to those who believe.

You are a believer? You go and the signs will follow you. iI there are not any done, take up with God, not me.

You want to see God save, heal, and deliver then ask HIM to help you minister to people.

Ask for the purpose of helping not tearing down people or trying to make the Holy Spirit your performer.


One thing is for sure I am not your puppet or at your beckoning call. I am saved and Spirit-filled and have seen God do many great things to God Be the glory. Most people who here them did not have to see it to believe it, but they did and were blessed by the testimony which was about God doing something through men and women.

You and I are done. I will not speak to you anymore and I will turn you off God bless

 

[cv5]

Who do you think you are? You petition me and my church to testify to the reality and legitimacy of the Holy Spirit workings?

Are you a snowflake? I ask that because you are most likely a troll.

Why don't you provide the first line of proof that The Gifts of the Holy Spirit have stopped from the word of God? You can't so to discredit the word of God you attack people and a church LOL.

I do not need to provide you with anything, nada, zip. If you did not see the Testimony of Pastor Glen we are done.

You are asking the same things the Pharisees asked Jesus, Perform for me so I believe.

That is where the context of the word of Jesus found in Mark means

Mark 16:4 NLT
Only an evil, adulterous generation would demand a miraculous sign, but the only sign I will give them is the sign of the prophet Jonah.” Then Jesus left them and went away.

That is your position, not mine

I hold to this below here:

Jesus said Mark 16:17-18

17 These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” 19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

Notice the contrast of the Pharisees and your question to that what Jesus said to those who believe.

You are a believer? You go and the signs will follow you. iI there are not any done, take up with God, not me.

You want to see God save, heal, and deliver then ask HIM to help you minister to people.

Ask for the purpose of helping not tearing down people or trying to make the Holy Spirit your performer.


One thing is for sure I am not your puppet or at your beckoning call. I am saved and Spirit-filled and have seen God do many great things to God Be the glory. Most people who here them did not have to see it to believe it, but they did and were blessed by the testimony which was about God doing something through men and women.

You and I are done. I will not speak to you anymore and I will turn you off God bless

OK. I was hoping for video testimony of miraculous tongues occuring at your Church but you have rejected that request yet again. Good evening to you.

 

[CS1]

OK. I was hoping for video testimony of miraculous tongues occurring at your Church but you have rejected that request yet again. Good evening to you.

I never said anything about tongues I have been talking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit which tongues are one. Also, I told you I do not need to post such a thing to have you attack it. And you are very much arrogant and divisive.

Please remember your own demands and petition you made in the post not to long ago.

you and I are done.

 

[Guojing]

Let me rephrase my position in different terms:

We all would cherish the opportunity to give God glory for these mighty works of signs and miracles. I mean this sincerely. I therefore petition you and your Church to testify to the reality and legitimacy of these manifestations of the Holy Spirit by posting videos of speaking in tongues and/or other such sign gifts for the edification of the Body and the winning of souls.
This is your obligation per the mandate of Scripture.

Thank you for your participation in this crucial matter in these last days.

Signs and wonders were essential to the Gospel of the Kingdom. The Jews, who were the target audience for that gospel, needed signs and wonders to be convinced of your message.

They were taught by God to expect signs and wonders in the OT, ever since Moses told God that the Jews will not believe him if he told them he was sent by God.

To give you a scriptural example, when John the Baptist disciples approach Jesus to clarify whether he was indeed the Messiah in Luke 7, how did Jesus respond to that request?

Did he:

• Ask them to believe he is the Messiah by faith OR,
• Made the blind see, raise the dead, made the lame walk almost immediately?

In contrast, when we share the good news of the gospel of grace, that Christ died for our sins and rose again on the 3rd day for our justification, based on 1 Cor 15:1-4, do people ask us to "show us a sign that I should believe you"?

 

[cv5]

Signs and wonders were essential to the Gospel of the Kingdom. The Jews, who were the target audience for that gospel, needed signs and wonders to be convinced of your message.

They were taught by God to expect signs and wonders in the OT, ever since Moses told God that the Jews will not believe him if he told them he was sent by God.

To give you a scriptural example, when John the Baptist disciples approach Jesus to clarify whether he was indeed the Messiah in Luke 7, how did Jesus respond to that request?

Did he:

• Ask them to believe he is the Messiah by faith OR,
• Made the blind see, raise the dead, made the lame walk almost immediately?

In contrast, when we share the good news of the gospel of grace, that Christ died for our sins and rose again on the 3rd day for our justification, based on 1 Cor 15:1-4, do people ask us to "show us a sign that I should believe you"?

I am already a believer. I am simply requesting that the Pentecostals support their claims with evidence.