We'll have to disagree then, because I interpret it to mean when The Holy Spirit shows us when we have sinned, that is a singular event at the time our Lord is showing we need to get with Him about and try to correct. If we refuse to get with Him about it, then that is to disregard The Holy Spirit's unction and thus will begin to cut off the bridge between Him and us. So generalizing it instead will lead to the cutting off of The Holy Spirit, no longer listening to His warnings, which is the main danger of the OSAS theories.
Repentance: A Boast in the Flesh
- Thread starter BenFTW
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We'll have to disagree then, because I interpret it to mean when The Holy Spirit shows us when we have sinned, that is a singular event at the time our Lord is showing we need to get with Him about and try to correct. If we refuse to get with Him about it, then that is to disregard The Holy Spirit's unction and thus will begin to cut off the bridge between Him and us. So generalizing it instead will lead to the cutting off of The Holy Spirit, no longer listening to His warnings, which is the main danger of the OSAS theories.
J
jamesg1951
Guest
What I love about Satan in Eden and the wilderness is that he used SCRIPTURE! Gods own words! To deceive Adam and to try and deceive Jesus. So Jesus knew full well how religion works and how it is a tol of the devil. Always has been and always will be.
H
heavenly_bound
Guest
"While i like the tenor of your points we do confess our sin. In other words we agree with God concerning our true nature as sinners. This opens the way for us to accept the Grace of God which is confessed as you have above."
This is unbelievable! If we still think that the believer IN CHRIST Jesus still posses the sin nature, then Christ died in vain!!!!
This is unbelievable! If we still think that the believer IN CHRIST Jesus still posses the sin nature, then Christ died in vain!!!!
J
jamesg1951
Guest
What did Jesus teach?
We need to be washed by the blood, baptized once for our sins, but we must continually wash each others feet and be cleansed of the dirt and sin we accumulate on a daily basis as we walk this earth.
We live in a world where we need food shelter and security just to survive physically. At the same time we have needs of belonging and love and self actualization which are diametrically opposed. Paul says why do I do the things I do not want to do, and the things I want to do, I cannot? One word.... FEAR !
Who will free me from this misery ... Thank God it has already been done by Christ Jesus. Perfect love casts out all fear.
Christ died in vain? What/who is Christ if not the Spirit of Perfect love that has come into the world to set us free?
The believer in Christ? Jesus said if we had the faith the size of a grain of a mustard seed we could say to a mountain (not a bucket of earth but.. a mountain) move from here to there and it would be done. Who REALLY !?!?!? is a believer in Christ ? Then why are people still homeless and starving? Do YOU have faith the size of a grain of a mustard seed? Are YOU a "believer in Christ" Have you moved a mountain ? Can you move a mountain? Oh ye of little faith. "Lord I believe, help my unbelief!" Do we come here to discuss the age of the earth or to discuss spiritual platitudes? Perhaps we need to find a way to gather ALL TRUE BELIEVERS under one umbrella, that Spirit of Christ and CHANGE THE WORLD. How many "true" believers are there in the world? How many can we get to move together in solving the problems of homelessness and starvation?
I agree with your points about the Holy Spirit showing us sin that we need to repent of. My only disagreement is that this particular text is speaking in that light. Repentance is not even mentioned in the text in question.
The point of the text in question as far as I can see, is that we can not be forgiven or cleansed if we do not acknowledge we are sinners.
Your points while valid do not seem to be the focus of John in this passage. Sure else where it is but as Yet it seems you are reading something into the intended message of the text.
However that being said, I am willing to read if you can show this text to be specifically speaking in the sense that you say.
H
heavenly_bound
Guest
If I am wrong, I stand to be corrected pls; The word does not tell us that our fesh still has the curse of sin on it! Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law; being MADE a curse for us. it is written, curse is everyone that hangeth on a tree! (Gal 3 :13). Being made implies that Christ was made to be a curse for us, I e on our behalf just like He was made sin on our behalf. He who knew no sin took up our sin nature in order to deal away with that nature. In the same token, He was made a curse for us! He hunged on the tree(cross) as a curse in our stead (place).
I think what you are trying to say is that we still have the mecahinsm of the old sinful nature still working in our minds( correct me if I am wrong pls). yes that is because our minds still have to come to terms with our new identy; that is why paul talks about being transformed by the renewal of our minds(Rom 12: 2)
I am not saying that when we er, we don’t show remode for our actions! Far from it,! What I am trying to put across is that let not our “sins” rube us of such a great salvation that Christ has wrought for us. Its not the confession of our sins that make this great salvation efficaious! It is seeing and acknoweleging the GREAT price paid at the cross that makes our salvation effective! Christ Work on the cross is Far greater than any sin we would ever commit! By the way, anyone born of God sinneth not! ( 1Jn 3:9)
I think what you are trying to say is that we still have the mecahinsm of the old sinful nature still working in our minds( correct me if I am wrong pls). yes that is because our minds still have to come to terms with our new identy; that is why paul talks about being transformed by the renewal of our minds(Rom 12: 2)
I am not saying that when we er, we don’t show remode for our actions! Far from it,! What I am trying to put across is that let not our “sins” rube us of such a great salvation that Christ has wrought for us. Its not the confession of our sins that make this great salvation efficaious! It is seeing and acknoweleging the GREAT price paid at the cross that makes our salvation effective! Christ Work on the cross is Far greater than any sin we would ever commit! By the way, anyone born of God sinneth not! ( 1Jn 3:9)
Amen...I firmly agree with what you have written about the new identity in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.
I still believe we have the law of sin in our flesh according to these scriptures.
Romans 7:17-23 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
Thank God for Romans 8 which talks walking according to the Spirit within us and that will stop the lusts of the flesh from wanting to do "it's" desires.
This also relates to the circumcision of Christ where the body of flesh was cut away from the new man in Christ. This is also called the circumcision of the heart. The Holy Spirit seals us from the flesh by cutting the inner man in Christ.
Colossians 2:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
This is why I believe we still have the law of sin in our flesh but we can by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body.
H
heavenly_bound
Guest
1
1LonelyKnight
Guest
Gal.at.ians 5:
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
H
heavenly_bound
Guest
In other words, you are insinuating that God forgives us only when we confess our sins. what about the sins of omission? what about those that we cannot remember? When you say “agreeing with God that we are sinners”, you are actually saying that Jesus christ was a total failure!
Because what Christ did with out sins on the cross affected our past, present and future sins(Heb 7:27, 12, 26, 9:24-26)! We of this genetration believe that Christ died 2000 yrs ago for us to be saved. We were not present then, but we believe that what he did at the cross, was powerful enough to affect us 2000 yrs later. But we find it very hard to believe that our sins were taken care of even before we get to commit them 2000 yrs latter!!!! Christ is far far far greater that Adam!! His saving grace can in no way be compared to the fall( Rom 5:12-21)!!
By the way the passage you quote 1Jn1:8; yes I agree with the context but you have just used only one of the 4 principles of of interpretation. How about the historical context; how about the audience to which this epistle was addressed to and what actually caused Apostle John to write the epistle in the first place. John wrote this epistle to fight Gnostics who had infiltrated the church after Paul's martyrdom( check out on what Gnostics believed pls). if we get to study diligently( by applying the 4 principles of hermineutics) , there is a lot I believe, that we will understand in detail . Let me just give one example, between Genesis chapter 11 and 12, lies 1500 years of bible history. So if we rely only on the bible alone, we will never know the full history of the bible!
Because what Christ did with out sins on the cross affected our past, present and future sins(Heb 7:27, 12, 26, 9:24-26)! We of this genetration believe that Christ died 2000 yrs ago for us to be saved. We were not present then, but we believe that what he did at the cross, was powerful enough to affect us 2000 yrs later. But we find it very hard to believe that our sins were taken care of even before we get to commit them 2000 yrs latter!!!! Christ is far far far greater that Adam!! His saving grace can in no way be compared to the fall( Rom 5:12-21)!!
By the way the passage you quote 1Jn1:8; yes I agree with the context but you have just used only one of the 4 principles of of interpretation. How about the historical context; how about the audience to which this epistle was addressed to and what actually caused Apostle John to write the epistle in the first place. John wrote this epistle to fight Gnostics who had infiltrated the church after Paul's martyrdom( check out on what Gnostics believed pls). if we get to study diligently( by applying the 4 principles of hermineutics) , there is a lot I believe, that we will understand in detail . Let me just give one example, between Genesis chapter 11 and 12, lies 1500 years of bible history. So if we rely only on the bible alone, we will never know the full history of the bible!
H
heavenly_bound
Guest
I disagree to an extent. It says to confess your sin. note your position in Christ.
While i like the tenor of your points we do confess our sin. In other words we agree with God concerning our true nature as sinners. This opens the way for us to accept the Grace of God which is confessed as you have above.
The whole context of that passage is being able to agree with God that we are sinners and thus in need of forgiveness and cleansing.
notice the context:
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we say we have no sin we are deceived and do not know the truth.
But if we do the opposite and agree with God that we are sinners:
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The next verse basically says the opposite agian, that if we do not agree with God that we are sinners then we accuse God of being a liar:
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
So the point is to acknowledge that we are sinners. Then we are opened up for God to forgive and cleanse.
In other words, you are insinuating that God forgives us only when we confess our sins. what about the sins of omission? what about those that we cannot remember? When you say “agreeing with God that we are sinners”, you are actually saying that Jesus christ was a total failure!
Because what Christ did with out sins on the cross affected our past, present and future sins(Heb 7:27, 12, 26, 9:24-26)! We of this genetration believe that Christ died 2000 yrs ago for us to be saved. We were not present then, but we believe that what he did at the cross, was powerful enough to affect us 2000 yrs later. But we find it very hard to believe that our sins were taken care of even before we get to commit them 2000 yrs latter!!!! Christ is far far far greater that Adam!! His saving grace can in no way be compared to the fall( Rom 5:12-21)!!
By the way the passage you quote 1Jn1:8; yes I agree with the context but you have just used only one of the 4 principles of of interpretation. How about the historical context; how about the audience to which this epistle was addressed to and what actually caused Apostle John to write the epistle in the first place. John wrote this epistle to fight Gnostics who had infiltrated the church after Paul's martyrdom( check out on what Gnostics believed pls). if we get to study diligently( by applying the 4 principles of hermineutics) , there is a lot I believe, that we will understand in detail . Let me just give one example, between Genesis chapter 11 and 12, lies 1500 years of bible history. So if we rely only on the bible alone, we will never know the full history of the bible!
While i like the tenor of your points we do confess our sin. In other words we agree with God concerning our true nature as sinners. This opens the way for us to accept the Grace of God which is confessed as you have above.
The whole context of that passage is being able to agree with God that we are sinners and thus in need of forgiveness and cleansing.
notice the context:
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we say we have no sin we are deceived and do not know the truth.
But if we do the opposite and agree with God that we are sinners:
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The next verse basically says the opposite agian, that if we do not agree with God that we are sinners then we accuse God of being a liar:
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
So the point is to acknowledge that we are sinners. Then we are opened up for God to forgive and cleanse.
In other words, you are insinuating that God forgives us only when we confess our sins. what about the sins of omission? what about those that we cannot remember? When you say “agreeing with God that we are sinners”, you are actually saying that Jesus christ was a total failure!
Because what Christ did with out sins on the cross affected our past, present and future sins(Heb 7:27, 12, 26, 9:24-26)! We of this genetration believe that Christ died 2000 yrs ago for us to be saved. We were not present then, but we believe that what he did at the cross, was powerful enough to affect us 2000 yrs later. But we find it very hard to believe that our sins were taken care of even before we get to commit them 2000 yrs latter!!!! Christ is far far far greater that Adam!! His saving grace can in no way be compared to the fall( Rom 5:12-21)!!
By the way the passage you quote 1Jn1:8; yes I agree with the context but you have just used only one of the 4 principles of of interpretation. How about the historical context; how about the audience to which this epistle was addressed to and what actually caused Apostle John to write the epistle in the first place. John wrote this epistle to fight Gnostics who had infiltrated the church after Paul's martyrdom( check out on what Gnostics believed pls). if we get to study diligently( by applying the 4 principles of hermineutics) , there is a lot I believe, that we will understand in detail . Let me just give one example, between Genesis chapter 11 and 12, lies 1500 years of bible history. So if we rely only on the bible alone, we will never know the full history of the bible!