Replacement/Supersessionism Theology,Why it Matters

[kaylagrl]

True.



I would consider Jewish-American citizens living in America to be home. Why would their home be elsewhere? Wouldn't it be slightly anti-semitic to tell Jewish-Americans that their home really wasn't here, even though they had citizenship, and that God really wants them to live somewhere else? You're basically telling them their real home is far away from you, and that though you won't force them to go there, God will.

If I were Jewish, I would look on those beliefs with a great deal of suspicion. You're collectivizing all of them into some simplistic model into which you think they all should fit. But the real world is more complex and messy with individuals having their own individual values and goals that quite often will not align with what everyone else thinks those values ought to be. "The Jews" are as diverse a group of people as "The Scots" or "The Arabs" or "The African-Americans." In reality there is no stereotype that suits everyone. "The Jews" will all never want to "go Home" because all 20 million + of those individuals will never have identical goals and values. They will never all agree that "Home" is where you think their home ought to be or where you think that God thinks it ought to be.



I'm not sure what political support you think we ought to give. Are we talking about politically supporting Jews, which live and hold citizenship in numerous countries around the planet, or are you talking about the state of Israel and it's politics? The two don't seem to be one and the same.



The RNC view on this is pretty vague: https://www.gop.com/topic/foreign-relations-israel/

What happens as politics in Israel change? Which political party in Israel do we support?

I think we can "support" the modern state of Israel, in some general sense, as long as the state exhibits the values of life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of the values and goals of the individuals that reside there. "Support" for the state of Israel shouldn't be a blank check that disregards the values and behaviors of the state. Unfortunately, I think for many Republicans, support for the modern state of Israel is probably this sort of blank check where support (in some general sense) is given no matter what the cost of that support actually entails. I think this is probably due to particular ways of reading the bible; a way of reading the bible that the Prophets themselves would have found foreign. The Prophets were the biggest critics of ancient Israel precisely because they didn't disregard the behavior and values of the state.

But I also don't think support for the state of Israel is required nor is lack of support indicative of anti-semitism or persecution.

Quote "Wouldn't it be slightly anti-semitic to tell Jewish-Americans that their home really wasn't here, even though they had citizenship, and that God really wants them to live somewhere else? You're basically telling them their real home is far away from you, and that though you won't force them to go there, God will."


Ezek 39:27-29 "When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will show myself holy through them in the sight of many nations." 28 "Then they will know that I am the LORD their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind." 29 "I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the house of Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD."

Amos 9:14-15-14 I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. 15 I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them, says the LORD your God."

Jer 30:2 "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Write in a book all the words I have spoken to you. 3 The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess,' says the LORD."

Jer 31:10 "Hear the word of the LORD, O nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: 'He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd."

Jer 33:7 "I will bring Judah and Israel back from captivity and will rebuild them as they were before."

Ezek 37:21-27 ....."I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms."

Ezek 39:28-not leaving any behind.

Isaiah 11:11-12 NIV - "In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea. He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth."


Jeremiah 32:44 NIV - "Fields will be bought for silver, and deeds will be signed, sealed and witnessed in the territory of Benjamin, in the villages around Jerusalem, in the towns of Judah and in the towns of the hill country, of the western foothills and of the Negev, because I will restore their fortunes, declares the LORD."

Isaiah 66:8 NIV - "Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labour than she gives birth to her children."

Isaiah 43:5-6,21 - "Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, `Give them up!' and to the south, `Do not hold them back.' Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth..."

Zephaniah 3:8-10 KJV - "For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent. From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, [even] the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering".

Isaiah 26:6 NIV - "In days to come Jacob will take root, Israel will bud and blossom and fill all the world with fruit."

Some of the verses talking of Jews going back to their homeland.Its what the Bible says.Neither you or I can change what God has planned. If that is simplistic well I cant argue with Gods plan,can you?

Quote "I'm not sure what political support you think we ought to give. Are we talking about politically supporting Jews, which live and hold citizenship in numerous countries around the planet, or are you talking about the state of Israel and it's politics? "

The political support America is giving Israel now,that is the support I mean.

Quote "But I also don't think support for the state of Israel is required nor is lack of support indicative of anti-semitism or persecution."

Well the Bible tell us,I believe,to support Israel. I dont know that lack of support is antisemitic but I would say to support Palestine against Israel may be antisemitic. Thats my opinion because I believe the Bible teaches the land belongs to Israel.But that is a different thread so I wont go further on that.

 

[kaylagrl]

I've been here and on other forums over the past several years to know that it happens all the time! And I choose to roll with it and not be offended when it happens to me. It is what it is and not worth making a big issue of. If you ignore it, it often goes away.




You must have not read this post very carefully:

Originally Posted by JGIG

You don't. This is a discussion forum. Any of us are free to chime in when we feel we have something to offer in the discussion.

I may not agree with your point, but I support your right to make it.

kaylagrl, you might want to loosen up on the reigns a bit. This is a discussion forum. You know . . . for people to discuss stuff.​

I bolded the part you seem to have missed so that you can see that what you said about ME was not very honest. And I choose to see it as an unintentional oversight and not an intentional offense .

-JGIG

Yes I certainly did miss that.But with all the people Ive been answering I think you can see why I'd miss it. I still believe it was rude for KJV to answer for me. That said Ive never blocked anyone on here yet so I cant be terribly easily offended.


ps. There was supposed to be a sorry in there.I did genuinely miss it.

 

[prove-all]

Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker,
Ask me of things to come concerning my sons
and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

45And Pharaoh called Joseph's name Zaphenath–paneah;
and he gave him to [wife Asenath] the daughter of Poti–phera priest of On.
And Joseph went out over all the land of Egypt.

50And unto Joseph were born [two sons] before the years of famine came,
which Asenath the daughter of Poti–phera priest of On bare unto him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaphnath-Paaneah
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asenath
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potipherah
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_(Ancient_Egypt)

51And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh:
For God, said he, hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father's house.

52And the name of the second called he Ephraim:
For God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction.

- mother Asenath, firstborn Manasseh, the second called Ephraim,


I found this artical below about Joseph, I do not know much about this
time period, but might be a Joseph and Egypt connection, coincidence maybe?
https://theegyptianidentityofjoseph...jacob-israel-was-imhotep-of-egyptian-history/

26All the souls that came with [Jacob into Egypt], which came out of his loins,
[besides Jacob's sons' wives], all the souls were threescore and six;

27And [the sons of Joseph], which were born him in Egypt, [were two souls]:
all the souls of the house of Jacob, which came into Egypt, were threescore and ten.


1And it came to pass after these things, that one told Joseph, Behold,
thy father is sick: and he took with him his two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim.

2And one told Jacob, and said, Behold, thy son Joseph cometh unto thee:
and Israel strengthened himself, and sat upon the bed.

3And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me
[at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me],

4And said unto me,Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee,
and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy
seed after thee for an everlasting possession” (Genesis 48:3-4).

-Jacob[Isreal] recalls the past blessings bestowed on him.

“And now thy two sons, [Ephraim and Manasseh], which were
born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into
Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine”

-Jacob adopts his 2 grandsons Ephraim and Manasseh, are his.

The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads;
and let [my name] be named [on them],

[and ] the name of my fathers [Abraham] and [Isaac];
and let them grow into a multitude in the
midst of the earth” (verses 14-16).

-hear he stamps his name [Israel] or Jacob,
and his fathers name [Abraham] and [Isaac]
on to these 2 lads

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Yes I certainly did miss that.But with all the people Ive been answering I think you can see why I'd miss it. I still believe it was rude for KJV to answer for me. That said Ive never blocked anyone on here yet so I cant be terribly easily offended.


ps. There was supposed to be a sorry in there.I did genuinely miss it.

LOL I like the "yet"...

I am to thick skinned to block people

 

[kaylagrl]

She wasn't just doing that. She wants to prove that believing that the Christian Church is the New Israel is wrong and instead of giving arguments from the Bible to prove us wrong, she quotes this man and that man and says "oh! look what your belief got Jews into".

I am not going to deny the New Testament because some protestant leaders said ugly things about the Jews.



But do you believe Saint Paul that says that we are now God's children, God's chosen people?



Of course it is completely different from being antisemitic. Which is why I believe you shouldn't read Saint John Chrysostom from the prism of WWII but according to his historical context.



Who is blaming the entire culture of Jews? Jew leaders killed Jesus Christ. Jews stay Jews precisely because they don't believe Jesus Christ is the Messiah. How can you say that they are God's chosen people if they don't believe Jesus Christ?



Hitler alone could not have commit the atrocities he has done. I believe the Germans who contributed to the holocaust will be held as accountable as Hitler.

The examples would make sense if Jews would follow Jesus Christ instead of the teachings of those that killed Jesus Christ. But since they don't...since they believe Jesus Christ was a fraud, a deceiver then that means they reject Christ.



My understanding is that Jesus Christ willingly went to death for us because He loved us.
But that doesn't change the fact that Caiaphas (the high-priest) hated Him and wanted Him death and that the Jews yelled "crucify Him". I hope you don't think the New Testament is antisemitic too.



So you follow judaism but at the same time you believe Jesus is the Christ? I'm confused.



My bad then. I thought the Talmud was an important book in Judaism.



...thank's for stating the obvious.



....



That's the point I am trying to make! That christianity has Jewish roots. That's why we believe Jesus Christ is the Messiah promised in the O.T. and thus claimed this wonderful book(s), the O.T., as ours, and that's why we are now the New and true Israel of God.



Of course not. Please point out where did I do that?
Jesus Christ is the Messiah that Jews expected. That is the whole point of the New Testament, of the minister of Saint Paul, of Christianity. For a lot of Jews from our days, Jesus Christ is the Messiah "of christians". It's not true. Jesus Christ is their Messiah; Saint Paul was a Jew before converting to Christianity. And he converted because He recognized Jesus as the Messiah. But Jews, as a religion, don't accept Him.

Quote "She wasn't just doing that. She wants to prove that believing that the Christian Church is the New Israel is wrong and instead of giving arguments from the Bible to prove us wrong.....



The Bible teaches the restoration of Israel...


Ezek 39:27-29 "When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will show myself holy through them in the sight of many nations." 28 "Then they will know that I am the LORD their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind." 29 "I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the house of Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD."

Amos 9:14-15-14 I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. 15 I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them, says the LORD your God."

Jer 30:2 "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Write in a book all the words I have spoken to you. 3 The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess,' says the LORD."

Jer 31:10 "Hear the word of the LORD, O nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: 'He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd."

Jer 33:7 "I will bring Judah and Israel back from captivity and will rebuild them as they were before."

Ezek 37:21-27 ....."I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms."

Ezek 39:28-not leaving any behind.

Isaiah 11:11-12 NIV - "In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea. He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth."


Jeremiah 32:44 NIV - "Fields will be bought for silver, and deeds will be signed, sealed and witnessed in the territory of Benjamin, in the villages around Jerusalem, in the towns of Judah and in the towns of the hill country, of the western foothills and of the Negev, because I will restore their fortunes, declares the LORD."

Isaiah 66:8 NIV - "Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labour than she gives birth to her children."

Isaiah 43:5-6,21 - "Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, `Give them up!' and to the south, `Do not hold them back.' Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth..."

Zephaniah 3:8-10 KJV - "For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent. From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, [even] the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering".

Isaiah 26:6 NIV - "In days to come Jacob will take root, Israel will bud and blossom and fill all the world with fruit."

Deut.30-hen all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes[a] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4 Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back.5 He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. 6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

[h=1]Ezekiel 36-This is what the Sovereign Lord says: The enemy said of you, “Aha! The ancient heights have become our possession.”’3 Therefore prophesy and say, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Because they ravaged and crushed you from every side so that you became the possession of the rest of the nations and the object of people’s malicious talk and slander, 4 therefore, mountains of Israel, hear the word of the SovereignLord: This is what the Sovereign Lord says to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and valleys, to the desolate ruins and the deserted towns that have been plundered and ridiculed by the rest of the nations around you— 5 this is what the Sovereign Lord says: In my burning zeal I have spoken against the rest of the nations, and against all Edom, for with glee and with malice in their hearts they made my land their own possession so that they might plunder its pastureland.’ 6 Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel and say to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and valleys: ‘This is what the SovereignLord says: I speak in my jealous wrath because you have suffered the scorn of the nations. 7 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I swear with uplifted hand that the nations around you will also suffer scorn.[/h]‘But you, mountains of Israel, will produce branches and fruit for my people Israel, for they will soon come home. 9 I am concerned for you and will look on you with favor; you will be plowed and sown, 10 and I will cause many people to live on you—yes, all of Israel. The towns will be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt.11 I will increase the number of people and animals living on you, and they will be fruitful and become numerous. I will settle people on you as in the past and will make you prosper more than before. Then you will know that I am theLord. 12 I will cause people, my people Israel, to live on you. They will possess you, and you will be their inheritance; you will never again deprive them of their children.

“‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Because some say to you, “You devour people and deprive your nation of its children,” 14 therefore you will no longer devour people or make your nation childless, declares the SovereignLord. 15 No longer will I make you hear the taunts of the nations, and no longer will you suffer the scorn of the peoples or cause your nation to fall, declares the Sovereign Lord.’”

“This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Once again I will yield to Israel’s pleaand do this for them: I will make their people as numerous as sheep, 38 as numerous as the flocks for offerings at Jerusalem during her appointed festivals. So will the ruined cities be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the Lord.”

Zep 3:14 Be glad and rejoice with all your heart,
Daughter Jerusalem!
15 The Lord has taken away your punishment,
he has turned back your enemy.
The Lord, the King of Israel, is with you;
never again will you fear any harm.
At that time I will deal
with all who oppressed you.
I will rescue the lame;
I will gather the exiles.
I will give them praise and honor
in every land where they have suffered shame.
20 At that time I will gather you;
at that time I will bring you home.
I will give you honor and praise
among all the peoples of the earth
when I restore your fortunes[a]
before your very eyes,”
says the Lord.

The promise Israel will continue...

"Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day, And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name: "If this fixed order departs From before Me," declares the LORD, "Then the offspring of Israel also shall cease From being a nation before Me forever." Thus says the LORD, "If the heavens above can be measured, And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done," declares the LORD" (Jer. 31:35-37).

The NT...

Matthew 23:37-39 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’

Luke 21-They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Acts 1- When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Romans 11 as I have posted before,for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29).

How can we as Christians trust the promises of God,which He said were irrevocable,if He doesnt keep His promise to Israel? Also the NT never uses the term Israel for anyone other than ethnic Jews.

Some examples...Acts 3-When Peter saw this, he said to them: “Fellow Israelites, why does this surprise you?

Acts 4-Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel

Acts 5-God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.

Israel and the church are always kept separate.

There, you have only Bible verses only to answer you.No other words but Gods as you have asked for.

 

[kaylagrl]

LOL I like the "yet"...

I am to thick skinned to block people

Sheesh I dont know.Im dodging bullets from all sides here.I may have no choice but to block a few.My husband keeps saying "who are you talking to on there"? Im going to have to limit my answers somewhat or be in dereliction of duty of being a wife.lol

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes really. Zechariah 14:4-5 fulfilled. Literally. Search internet: Azal + yasul

Sorry, I never saw Jesus come down from the heavens and split the mount of Olives.

If God says something is going to happen, It happens. period.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Speak for yourself. I believe what this says:

When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt. Hosea 11:1

And [Jesus] was there until the death of Herod, in order that what was said by the Lord through the prophet would be fulfilled, saying, ​“Out of Egypt I called my son.” Matthew 2:15​

That does not say anyone was grafted into anything

That says out of eggypt he called his son (Jesus had roots in Egypt)

Why do you always have to make things so complicated.

I will tell you what God says.

rom 11 says they (Israel) was cutt off, We (gentiles) were grafted in

Rom 11 says they are the natural branches, We are the wild olive, or unnatural branches.

 

[PeterJens]

we are not grafted into the nation of Israel, but grafted into Christ.

I love this picky language.
The body of christ is one body. The prophets, Moses, Abraham are all part of this body by faith.

You read to be part of the people of God, when mentioned as Israel, means the law, when mentioned Christ means grace.

I simply mean it is all grace. The people who were Jews before Jesus are part of the body by faith, and he people after Jesus walking in faith are part of the body. I suppose the question is if you were a Jew who had not heard about Jesus, but was faithful, are you saved? There maybe a sense in believing in the shadow, is the same a believing in Jesus, though those who here of Jesus, and believe in the shadow will walk in Jesus as the fulfillment of their desires.

I am not as I said one who holds with HRM, but it is an interesting area of debate.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I love this picky language.
The body of christ is one body. The prophets, Moses, Abraham are all part of this body by faith.

You read to be part of the people of God, when mentioned as Israel, means the law, when mentioned Christ means grace.

Thats funny, You forgot Noah and Adam and even Abraham, All Gentiles.

I simply mean it is all grace. The people who were Jews before Jesus are part of the body by faith, and he people after Jesus walking in faith are part of the body. I suppose the question is if you were a Jew who had not heard about Jesus, but was faithful, are you saved? There maybe a sense in believing in the shadow, is the same a believing in Jesus, though those who here of Jesus, and believe in the shadow will walk in Jesus as the fulfillment of their desires.

I am not as I said one who holds with HRM, but it is an interesting area of debate.

Oh Is that true? So those who played the harlot were jews by faith, Ok. Thanks I did not know that..

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Sorry, I never saw Jesus come down from the heavens and split the mount of Olives.

If God says something is going to happen, It happens. period.

GOD never said it. It's the tradition of men.

 

[Grandpa]

I love this picky language.
The body of christ is one body. The prophets, Moses, Abraham are all part of this body by faith.

You read to be part of the people of God, when mentioned as Israel, means the law, when mentioned Christ means grace.

I simply mean it is all grace. The people who were Jews before Jesus are part of the body by faith, and he people after Jesus walking in faith are part of the body. I suppose the question is if you were a Jew who had not heard about Jesus, but was faithful, are you saved? There maybe a sense in believing in the shadow, is the same a believing in Jesus, though those who here of Jesus, and believe in the shadow will walk in Jesus as the fulfillment of their desires.

I am not as I said one who holds with HRM, but it is an interesting area of debate.

I suppose it would not matter, to God, the reason why a person puts their trust in Him. Just that they do, put their trust in Him.

I would think, my opinion, that in this day and age a person who was living the OT way would be led to Christianity by the Holy Spirit.

And their blind faith would be given sight.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

GOD never said it. It's the tradition of men.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as [SUP][a][/SUP]when He fights on a day of battle. [SUP]4 [/SUP]In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. [SUP]5 [/SUP]You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with [SUP][b][/SUP]Him!

So God did not say this, This was a tradition of men? Since when is the word of God a tradition of men?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I suppose it would not matter, to God, the reason why a person puts their trust in Him. Just that they do, put their trust in Him.

I would think, my opinion, that in this day and age a person who was living the OT way would be led to Christianity by the Holy Spirit.

And their blind faith would be given sight.

Talk about freedom! Amen and Amen!!

 

[Hoffco]

We need to see that law and Grace are friends. the Law is not of faith but it is not the enemy of faith. Gal. 3:12&21. . and we "establish the law by Faith " Rom. 3:31 Many in the O.T. were baptized into Moses but only the remnant of the "elect" of God were baptized into Christ ,during the wilderness journey. 1 cor.12:13 The "elect" have always been in Christ, from eternity. Love to all. Hoffco

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We need to see that law and Grace are friends. the Law is not of faith but it is not the enemy of faith. Gal. 3:12&21. . and we "establish the law by Faith " Rom. 3:31 Many in the O.T. were baptized into Moses but only the remnant of the "elect" of God were baptized into Christ ,during the wilderness journey. 1 cor.12:13 The "elect" have always been in Christ, from eternity. Love to all. Hoffco

No, they are not friends, they are apposed to each other.

The law brings condemnation, Grace brings salvation.

Anyone who thinks they are friends, and go together, does not understand the law, or grace.

 

[JimmieD]

Quote "Wouldn't it be slightly anti-semitic to tell Jewish-Americans that their home really wasn't here, even though they had citizenship, and that God really wants them to live somewhere else? You're basically telling them their real home is far away from you, and that though you won't force them to go there, God will."


Ezek 39:27-29 "When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will show myself holy through them in the sight of many nations." 28 "Then they will know that I am the LORD their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind." 29 "I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the house of Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD."

Amos 9:14-15-14 I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. 15 I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them, says the LORD your God."

Jer 30:2 "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Write in a book all the words I have spoken to you. 3 The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess,' says the LORD."

Jer 31:10 "Hear the word of the LORD, O nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: 'He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd."

Jer 33:7 "I will bring Judah and Israel back from captivity and will rebuild them as they were before."

Ezek 37:21-27 ....."I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms."

Ezek 39:28-not leaving any behind.

Isaiah 11:11-12 NIV - "In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea. He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth."


Jeremiah 32:44 NIV - "Fields will be bought for silver, and deeds will be signed, sealed and witnessed in the territory of Benjamin, in the villages around Jerusalem, in the towns of Judah and in the towns of the hill country, of the western foothills and of the Negev, because I will restore their fortunes, declares the LORD."

Isaiah 66:8 NIV - "Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labour than she gives birth to her children."

Isaiah 43:5-6,21 - "Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, `Give them up!' and to the south, `Do not hold them back.' Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth..."

Zephaniah 3:8-10 KJV - "For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent. From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, [even] the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering".

Isaiah 26:6 NIV - "In days to come Jacob will take root, Israel will bud and blossom and fill all the world with fruit."

Some of the verses talking of Jews going back to their homeland.Its what the Bible says.Neither you or I can change what God has planned. If that is simplistic well I cant argue with Gods plan,can you?

I've never been a fan of shotgunning a collection of scattered verses. It's usually signaled to me that the person doing it hasn't taken the time to properly understand the verses and consider things like authorial intent. Further, it's usually been indicative of someone who is hoping that by dumping a torrent of verses they think support their point of view, that the other person will simply give up, and not take the time to address each one properly.

However, I'm prepared to go through each of those verses, discuss them at considerable length (for no other reason than it's really interesting), consider their context within the books, their context within their historical and cultural settings, consider their authors and the author's intended audience so I can understand the actually meaning of the text. Usually though, the person who data dumped some verses has no interest in such a thing.

Ezek 39:27-29

"When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will show myself holy through them in the sight of many nations." 28 "Then they will know that I am the LORD their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind." 29 "I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the house of Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD."

Sure, we can begin in the 39th chapter of Ezekiel, though it usually makes better since to understand a book by starting in the beginning. Ezekiel's main concern throughout the book is the apostasy of Judah specifically. The first 24 chapters deal with the apostasy of Israel, judgement coming on Israel, the fall of Jerusalem, and the subsequent exile to Babylon - actual, ancient Babylon. Ezekiel himself opens the book identifying his location as being by the River Chebar, in Babylon. He covers a litany of things Judah had done to bring about their own demise and exile.

Given the amount of attention Ezekiel devotes to ancient Israel's rebellion against Yahweh, and given that the text explicit states numerous times that Ezekiel is addressing the exiles living in [actual] Babylon, I think it's fair to say that Ezekiel's primary concern is identifying the proximate causes and reasons for the Babylonian exile followed by a message of hope to those people living in Babylon.

Eze 24-32ish contains various oracles against various nations. But the collection of oracles against the nations isn't random or about something that has nothing to do with Ezekiel's primary concern. These were the immediate nations surrounding ancient Israel who gloated in Judah's demise. Judah had, at the time, been a client state of Babylon, basically paying tribute to keep the Babylonians away. Nebuchadnezzar had launched an unsuccessful campaign against Egypt resulting in a weakening of the Babylonian army with a major defeat at the Battle of Charchemish. The various Canaanite and Phonetician states rebelled against Babylonian dominance - Judah was no different; they too thought it would be a good chance to separate themselves from Babylon. Jehoiakin attempted to ally himself with Egypt - the apparent winners as of late (2 Kings 23-24). But Babylon came back, they beat Jehoaikin in 597 who surrendered and became a client king to Babylon for a few years. Jehoiakin attempted to rebel against Babylon and align himself with Egypt again, but the Egyptians themselves were defeated by the Babylonians...who then turned and destroyed Jerusalem, exiling the rest of the elite and leadership that Jehoiakin hadn't already exported to Babylon himself.

After the destruction of Jerusalem, Babylon then turned to Israel's neighbors...the same ones listed in Ezekiel who said that those nations would be destroyed. Babylon would lay siege to Tyre for 13 years and eventually subjugate the various kingdoms in the area. In Ezekiel, Babylon was God's instrument for executing judgment on Israel and Israel's other enemies, in much the same way Isaiah viewed Cyrus as God's instrument for executing God's plan for Israel's return.

The first 34 or so chapters deal with the judgment of ancient Israel (really, Judah, since Northern Israel was long gone) before Ezekiel turns his attention to restoration and hope. What would be strange is if at this point Ezekiel quit talking about the things he had been talking about, addressing the people and events he had been addressing, and started talking about things 3,000 years into the future. Luckily, he doesn't do that. Ezekiel's promise of hope and restoration for Israel, is a message of hope for the people who were living then and there with Ezekiel in Babylon. The Valley of Dry Bones in Eze 37 is about the restoration of a seemingly dead Israel...they were seemingly dead because they were living in world where they were in exile in the superpower of the day, Babylon.

Eze 39:27-29 is about this hope of restoration from the Babylonian exile. Ezekiel even records it:

"Then they will know that I am the LORD their God because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer."

Where is there? In Babylon. Where Ezekiel is. Where is audience is. Where they want to leave from. This isn't about leaving the United States or various other places for the modern state of Israel. This is about a particular people who had seen their homes literally destroyed, no doubt had seen some horrible forms of death at the hands of the Babylonians and were taken away as captives to Babylon. These are the people Ezekiel is talking about returning from exile and living again in Israel. They are the ones who still had the memory of their actual homes being in Israel.

I think it's a tough sell to say the verses you quoted are about anything other than what is determined by the context of Ezekiel himself. Ezekiel's hope of returning to Israel from exile is a message to a for the Jewish exiles living in Babylon.

Well the Bible tell us,I believe,to support Israel.

I'm not sure the bible says we ought to politically support the modern state of Israel (which is what you indicated you mean by "support"). Support for Israel should be contingent of the behavior and values of the state itself. I seriously doubt the bible ever requires us to give blank check of support to anyone other than God. If [modern] Israel were to do something immoral, I doubt God requires us to support it, unless he's become accustomed to condoning immorality recently.

 

[valiant]

Sorry, I never saw Jesus come down from the heavens and split the mount of Olives.

If God says something is going to happen, It happens. period.

Thats because you are not intelligent enough to recognise that Zechariah constantly uses images (he writes apocalyptically), and he has explained this image in ch4. Olive trees (witnesses) are to be sent out by God north and south. Its simple really. Simply requires us to interpret Scripture b Scripture.

And it has happened. The witnesses erupted from Jerusalem after Pentecost.

You've probably not seen a woman carried in an ephah to Babylon either lol

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as [SUP][a][/SUP]when He fights on a day of battle. [SUP]4 [/SUP]In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. [SUP]5 [/SUP]You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with [SUP][b][/SUP]Him!

So God did not say this, This was a tradition of men? Since when is the word of God a tradition of men?

Yep. That version of Zechariah 14:5 is corrupted. It's based on a Jewish tradition that was incorporated into the Masoretic Text.

 

[JGIG]

Yes I certainly did miss that.But with all the people Ive been answering I think you can see why I'd miss it. I still believe it was rude for KJV to answer for me. That said Ive never blocked anyone on here yet so I cant be terribly easily offended.


ps. There was supposed to be a sorry in there.I did genuinely miss it.

We all miss stuff, especially on a thread this long . No worries, and thanks for the apology - warmly accepted .

I have some more thoughts on Replacement Theology and other issues that tie into it, but they will have to wait, as I'm headed to a doctor's appointment with one of the children.

Grace and peace to you,
-JGIG