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You quoted Romans 11:11. I responded to you that Saint Paul equates Israel with the vessels of wrath but at the same time Saint Paul is aware of his somewhat anti-Jewish audience and tell them that they, the Jews, are not without recovery. If they repent, they too can be part of the New Israel, the Church.
Saint Paul is not talking about a large-scale last-minute salvation of the Jews at the parousia. Read the whole letter to Romans, not only few verses that you can take out of context and make them support your position.
Instead of looking down upon the Jews for their blindness, Saint Paul suggests that his audience should feel gratitude because they have inherited the blessing of Israel. As well, the non-Christian Jews ought to feel jealousy because of that, and come join the new family in Jesus Christ: Jew+Gentile Christians.
The remnant of Israel is chosen by grace, not by works of Torah or privileged religious and ethnic status (Rom. 11:5). Saint Paul expresses the desire that this remnant will not be a small number of non-Christian Jews, but on the contrary, that the number of the Jews believing in the Messiah would increase and he wants Christians in Rome to desire the same thing.
This comment completely ignores the Jewish roots of Christianity. It presents Jews and Christians as two totally different entities that don't share in common the same God (the God of Abraham, the God of the covenant). This comparisons make Christianity a marcionite system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcionism).
So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female,for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[b] 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.
It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[b] 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.
Paul is clearly in scripture , addressing the Gentile Belivers upon God plans for Israel. It's is very clear in Romans 11 , sincerely not really sure why this thread continues on, Christians should not continue in quarrelsome upon there personal views, if God clearly show His plan for Israel in Romans 11 why one would not accept it ??? For those that cannot accept what Paul taught to the Beliving Gentiles, do you accept thee 144,000 are of all the tribes of the children of Israel ???
The Ingrafting of the Gentiles
11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
All Israel Shall Be Saved
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Shalom
The Ingrafting of the Gentiles
11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
All Israel Shall Be Saved
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Shalom
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But that is because you do not understand Romans 9-11. What Paul was showing in Rom 9-11 was that the true Israel was the election of Israel plus the proselyte Gentiles who had been grafted in. Thus the 'all Israel who will be saved' are the olive tree, believing Jews and believing Gentiles, That is WHY all Israel cannot be saved until the fullness of the Gentiles (the elect) have been gathered in. They are a necessary part of 'all Israel'
It is clear in Eph 2 where believing Gentiles who had been strangers are said to be no longer strangers but fellow-citizens with Israel.
It is clear in Gal 6.16 that the church is the Israel of God. (Any other interpretation means that Paul denies himself - there is neither circumcision nor uncircumcison, there is neither Jew nor Greek).
1 Peter 2.9 makes quite clear that the church is Israel. Compare Exod 19.5-6.
Rom 11.12-24 makes clear that the olive tree of Israel (Jer 11.16) is made up of Messiah believing Jews and Gentile proselytes.
In James 1.1 James addresses the whole church as 'the twelve tribes of Israel'. Had he been writing only to Jewish Christians he would have had to mention how they should behave towards ex-Gentile Christians.
Peter speaks of the church as being 'the dispersion', a name signifying Israel.
It is clear in Gal 6.16 that the church is the Israel of God. (Any other interpretation means that Paul denies himself - there is neither circumcision nor uncircumcison, there is neither Jew nor Greek).
1 Peter 2.9 makes quite clear that the church is Israel. Compare Exod 19.5-6.
Rom 11.12-24 makes clear that the olive tree of Israel (Jer 11.16) is made up of Messiah believing Jews and Gentile proselytes.
In James 1.1 James addresses the whole church as 'the twelve tribes of Israel'. Had he been writing only to Jewish Christians he would have had to mention how they should behave towards ex-Gentile Christians.
Peter speaks of the church as being 'the dispersion', a name signifying Israel.
What I have seen is that people expect God to say:
Gandalf 1 verse 1 - And the Lord said in a booming voice: "Gentiles you are now Israel!!!"
but what this same crowd forget is that they believe in a trinity God. The word trinity is not found in the Bible. So clearly they can't believe in that?
Just saying...
Gandalf 1 verse 1 - And the Lord said in a booming voice: "Gentiles you are now Israel!!!"
but what this same crowd forget is that they believe in a trinity God. The word trinity is not found in the Bible. So clearly they can't believe in that?
Just saying...
If people believed their bible was inerrant this argument wouldn't even exist. The church existed in Israel's day.... it was the church who inherited the promises to Abraham.
Acts 7:38 KJV
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Acts 7:38 KJV
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
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Their argument is lacking and has serious issues. they forget one major problem.
The God Of Israel was first the God of Adam, The God of Noah, The God of Abraham (he was a gentile God LONG before he was an Israel God)
God chose Israel to have a few functions..
only 1 of those functions was to bore the savior of mankind, and become a blessing to all nations (salvic in nature)
The God Of Israel was first the God of Adam, The God of Noah, The God of Abraham (he was a gentile God LONG before he was an Israel God)
God chose Israel to have a few functions..
only 1 of those functions was to bore the savior of mankind, and become a blessing to all nations (salvic in nature)
