Replacement theology? Yes or No.

[Revelation1v8]

We need to be more Biblical than that.

"Muslims" are not a "great city" or a place "where also our Lord was crucified".
They were not judged after the law of Moses in the presence of 2 witnesses called the 2 olive branches and 2 candlesticks and bearing the signs of Moses and the OT prophets.
It is not appropriate that they ever will be judged in this manner, because they have never lived under Moses' law.
Muslims did not have a manipulative "friendship" with Rome, and the ten deputy rulers of Rome did turn against them hating and destroying them wile taking upon themselves great authority.

The story is so much like the first century siege and destruction of Jerusalem that it would be very dishonest to ignore the obvious connection.

So what about the prophets?
Zechariah was not speaking of the Muslims when he said "The Lord look upon it, and require it" after they stoned him to death in the temple (2 Chronicles 24:20-22).
Uriah, friend of Jeremiah, was executed with a sword in Jerusalem.
Jeremiah himself Beaten and put in stocks (Jeremiah 20:2), Thrown into a muddy cistern (Jeremiah 38:6), wished he had never been born (Jeremiah 20:14–18), And yet, he kept speaking.
Jezabel hunted and killed many prophets of God (1kings 18:4).
John the baptist beheaded, Jesus crucified ("for it cannot be that a prophet would perish outside of Jerusalem" Luke 13:33).

Too many prophets were killed in Jerusalem to list them all here but I hope you get the idea that in the first century Jerusalem was without doubt the worlds capital for murdering prophets.

It is also apostate Jerusalem that is repeatedly called a "Harlot" throughout the OT.
e.g. Isaiah 1:21 "How is the faithful city become an harlot!"

So if it is really the Bible that guides our views and not our views interpreting the Bible subjectively,
we will have to be honest and admit that the great city of Rev. 17 and 18 is thoroughly identified as first century Jerusalem.

When the Bible talks about the "Harlot" in Revelation 17 & 18, it tells you several times that it's referring to a BABYLON system in Revelation 17:5, Revelation 18:2, Revelation 18:10, and Revelation 18:21.

Revelation 18:3 - For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

It's talking about the whole earth.

If it was really the Bible that guided your views, and if you really wanted to be honest with yourself about Jerusalem, you'd stop ignoring what it says:

• Amos 9:15 — "And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God."
• Jeremiah 30:3 — "For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it."
• Jeremiah 31:28 — "And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD."
• Jeremiah 12:15 — "And it shall come to pass, after that I have plucked them out I will return, and have compassion on them, and will bring them again, every man to his heritage, and every man to his land."
• Jeremiah 24:6 — "For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up."
• Jeremiah 32:41 — "Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul."
• Jeremiah 31:4–5 — "I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. I will build thee again, and thou shalt be built; O thou virgin Israel: thou shalt be brought forth with music of tabrets."
• Jeremiah 23:3 — "For I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have compassion on the dwellings of him; and the city shall be built upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain in her proper place."
• Ezekiel 36:24 — "For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you together from all countries, and will bring you into your own land."
• Deuteronomy 30:5 — "The LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers."

 

[LaySisterMarjana]

People will only be saved if they are Christians, regardless of whether 'ethnic' or religious Jews are in control of the land of Israel. God certainly has plans for the restoration of Israel, but no son of Abraham will obtain eternal life unless he's he's Christian.

 

[Revelation1v8]

Yes I’m sort of clear already on it friend just based on scripture. Ai is way too much for an old timer like me . My nephew showed me some interesting things he would put a position into the ai and ask it to create and argument , then put another position into ai and ask it to create and argument then we looked at the two opposing arguments lol there existed the same contradictions that exist between two people with opposing views


My opinion after he did a few experiments like that is that it tends to make you ( the user ) think your right even if you put opposite conclusions into it but I sort of realized ai isn’t a good way to try to grasp Gods word but rather through prayer and study and practice.


abut this isn’t to disparage your opinions regarding ai or the Bible it’s just that I have a different view from some of you

My point in using A.I. is to express MY view in the best way possible so everyone might understand it easier. Although, I haven't had to use any specific prompts in my A.I. requests lately, I usually recommend to everyone to tell it to give them "Bible answers only". It can be just as simple as that. Let it search the text of the scriptures only to get the answers to your questions.

 

[OMC]

My point in using A.I. is to express MY view in the best way possible so everyone might understand it easier. Although, I haven't had to use any specific prompts in my A.I. requests lately, I usually recommend to everyone to tell it to give them "Bible answers only". It can be just as simple as that. Let it search the text of the scriptures only to get the answers to your questions.

Its like a glorified concordance, but that won't matter. Folks won't educate themselves on it so they are going to give you grief for using it. I use Grid 3 but still get blamed and cursed for using AI even though it is not an AI. Just do what you can, and those that have a mind will address what you say and not the tools you use.

 

[Revelation1v8]

Its like a glorified concordance, but that won't matter. Folks won't educate themselves on it so they are going to give you grief for using it. I use Grid 3 but still get blamed and cursed for using AI even though it is not an AI. Just do what you can, and those that have a mind will address what you say and not the tools you use.

It's true. Those who truly know their Bibles and have an argument to counter with, will use it. People only knock it when it doesn't prove their view.

 

[Revelation1v8]

Amen

“Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:34-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I'm going to break up this response into two or three posts to take this step-by-step starting with this as the first:

Now, let's see what happens when you piece ALL of the scriptures together. This is how "prophetic telescoping" works:

The passage you quoted is Matthew 23:34–36, and there is a very important biblical pattern here: Jesus was speaking about something that had already happened in Israel's history, something that was happening in His own generation, and a pattern of persecution that Scripture shows occurring again in the future.
The key is to distinguish the historical fulfillment from the recurring prophetic pattern.

1. Jesus begins with Israel's past​

Jesus says:

“that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias…”
—Matthew 23:35

He deliberately goes all the way back to Abel.
Abel was killed by Cain:

“Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.”
—Genesis 4:8

Then throughout Israel's history, God's messengers were repeatedly rejected and killed.
For example:
Urijah was killed by King Jehoiakim:

“And when Jehoiakim the king… heard his words, he sought to slay him…”
—Jeremiah 26:21

Zechariah son of Jehoiada was stoned in the temple:

“And they conspired against him, and stoned him with stones at the commandment of the king in the court of the house of the LORD.”
—2 Chronicles 24:21

Jesus therefore isn't introducing a new phenomenon. He's saying, essentially:
“This is the same pattern your fathers have followed throughout Israel's history.”
Jesus had already described that pattern in Matthew 23:29–31:

“Ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous…”

And then:

“Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.”
—Matthew 23:31

---

2. Then Jesus says the pattern is happening again in His own generation​

Notice the future tense:

“Behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify…”
—Matthew 23:34

Jesus is looking forward only a short time here.
He would send His apostles and other witnesses, and they would be persecuted.
And that's exactly what Acts records.

Stephen​

Stephen was murdered:

“Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
And cast him out of the city, and stoned him…”
—Acts 7:57–58

James​

Herod killed James:

“And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.”
—Acts 12:2

The apostles were persecuted​

Jesus' prediction in Matthew 23:34 corresponds closely to what He had already told His disciples:

“They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.”
—John 16:2

And Paul describes the persecution of believers:

“For I have… laboured more abundantly… in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.”
—2 Corinthians 11:23

So Matthew 23:34 absolutely had a near-term fulfillment.

---

3. But Scripture shows the same pattern occurring again​

This is where your question becomes particularly interesting.
Jesus' statement isn't merely describing one isolated event. Scripture repeatedly presents the persecution and killing of God's witnesses as a recurring pattern that reaches another climax at the end of the age.
Jesus says in Matthew 24:

“Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.”
—Matthew 24:9

Then He says:

“And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.”
—Matthew 24:11

And:

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
—Matthew 24:14

So there is a progression:
past prophets → Christ and apostles → end-time witnesses

---

4. Revelation gives us an especially striking future example​

Look at Revelation 11.
God has two witnesses who prophesy:

“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy…”
—Revelation 11:3

Then:

“And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.”
—Revelation 11:7

Their bodies are left lying in Jerusalem:

“And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city…”
—Revelation 11:8

And then they are resurrected:

“And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them…”
—Revelation 11:11

That is remarkably similar to the pattern Jesus describes:
God sends His witnesses → the witnesses testify → they are rejected → persecuted → killed → God vindicates them.

---

​

 

[Revelation1v8]

Amen

“Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:34-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Post #2 as a continuation of the one I just posted before:

5. And notice where the witnesses are killed​

This is particularly relevant to Matthew 23.
Jesus says:

“some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city”

The persecution is associated with Jerusalem and Israel's religious establishment in the immediate context.
Then Revelation 11 places God's final witnesses in Jerusalem, where they are killed.
And Jesus had specifically said:

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee…”
—Matthew 23:37

That makes the connection especially significant.

---

6. Jesus' statement therefore has a historical pattern​

You can lay it out like this:

Period	God's witnesses	Response
Old Testament	Abel, prophets, righteous men	Rejection, persecution, death
Jesus' generation	Jesus, apostles, Stephen and others	Rejection, persecution, death
Future/end of age	God's end-time witnesses	Persecution and death
Christ's return	God vindicates His witnesses	Resurrection, judgment, kingdom

This is why the Bible can speak about something as already having happened while Scripture also presents the same pattern as occurring again.

---

7. But there is an important qualification about Matthew 23:36​

Jesus immediately says:

“Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.”
—Matthew 23:36

That verse points directly to the judgment coming upon Jesus' generation.
And Jesus later describes the destruction of Jerusalem:

“There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
—Matthew 24:2

So I would not say that Matthew 23:34–36 itself predicts that the exact same people will kill the exact same prophets again.
Rather, there are two levels:

First fulfillment​

Jesus' generation would experience the consequences of the centuries-long rejection of God's messengers, culminating in their rejection and killing of God's Son and persecution of His messengers.

Recurring/final pattern​

The Bible then shows that the persecution of God's witnesses is not finished. It reappears in the final period, reaching another climax in Revelation 11.

---

8. There's an even deeper biblical principle here​

Jesus' words fit a pattern established much earlier.
Israel's history repeatedly follows:
God sends → Israel rejects → God's messenger is persecuted → judgment follows → God preserves/remembers the righteous.
Jesus says:

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets…”

And Revelation ultimately shows the beast making war against God's witnesses.
So the end-time event isn't necessarily a completely new phenomenon. It is the reappearance and culmination of an old biblical pattern.
That's why Revelation is filled with Old Testament imagery.
For example, Revelation's two witnesses resemble:

• Moses
• Elijah
• the prophets generally
• Zechariah's lampstands/olive trees

And Revelation explicitly calls them “the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks” (Revelation 11:4), drawing from Zechariah 4.

---

The pattern in one sentence​

What Israel repeatedly did to God's messengers in the past, and what Jesus' generation did to Christ and His witnesses, becomes a pattern that Scripture says will appear again in the final conflict between the world and God's witnesses.
And that helps explain something you've been examining in your other questions about Israel, Daniel's 70th week, and the Tribulation: Scripture doesn't require us to treat every earlier fulfillment as eliminating a later one. Biblical prophecy frequently establishes a historical pattern that reaches a later, climactic fulfillment.
If you want, I can next show you 10–15 specific Old Testament passages where Israel killed/persecuted God's prophets, followed by the New Testament passages showing the exact same pattern repeating in the Tribulation.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Post #2 as a continuation of the one I just posted before:

5. And notice where the witnesses are killed​

This is particularly relevant to Matthew 23.
Jesus says:

The persecution is associated with Jerusalem and Israel's religious establishment in the immediate context.
Then Revelation 11 places God's final witnesses in Jerusalem, where they are killed.
And Jesus had specifically said:

That makes the connection especially significant.

---

6. Jesus' statement therefore has a historical pattern​

You can lay it out like this:

Period	God's witnesses	Response
Old Testament	Abel, prophets, righteous men	Rejection, persecution, death
Jesus' generation	Jesus, apostles, Stephen and others	Rejection, persecution, death
Future/end of age	God's end-time witnesses	Persecution and death
Christ's return	God vindicates His witnesses	Resurrection, judgment, kingdom

This is why the Bible can speak about something as already having happened while Scripture also presents the same pattern as occurring again.

---

7. But there is an important qualification about Matthew 23:36​

Jesus immediately says:

That verse points directly to the judgment coming upon Jesus' generation.
And Jesus later describes the destruction of Jerusalem:

So I would not say that Matthew 23:34–36 itself predicts that the exact same people will kill the exact same prophets again.
Rather, there are two levels:

First fulfillment​

Jesus' generation would experience the consequences of the centuries-long rejection of God's messengers, culminating in their rejection and killing of God's Son and persecution of His messengers.

Recurring/final pattern​

The Bible then shows that the persecution of God's witnesses is not finished. It reappears in the final period, reaching another climax in Revelation 11.

---

8. There's an even deeper biblical principle here​

Jesus' words fit a pattern established much earlier.
Israel's history repeatedly follows:
God sends → Israel rejects → God's messenger is persecuted → judgment follows → God preserves/remembers the righteous.
Jesus says:

And Revelation ultimately shows the beast making war against God's witnesses.
So the end-time event isn't necessarily a completely new phenomenon. It is the reappearance and culmination of an old biblical pattern.
That's why Revelation is filled with Old Testament imagery.
For example, Revelation's two witnesses resemble:

• Moses
• Elijah
• the prophets generally
• Zechariah's lampstands/olive trees

And Revelation explicitly calls them “the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks” (Revelation 11:4), drawing from Zechariah 4.

---

The pattern in one sentence​

What Israel repeatedly did to God's messengers in the past, and what Jesus' generation did to Christ and His witnesses, becomes a pattern that Scripture says will appear again in the final conflict between the world and God's witnesses.
And that helps explain something you've been examining in your other questions about Israel, Daniel's 70th week, and the Tribulation: Scripture doesn't require us to treat every earlier fulfillment as eliminating a later one. Biblical prophecy frequently establishes a historical pattern that reaches a later, climactic fulfillment.
If you want, I can next show you 10–15 specific Old Testament passages where Israel killed/persecuted God's prophets, followed by the New Testament passages showing the exact same pattern repeating in the Tribulation.

Reposting ai answers is a waste of time I’m not even reading them at this point

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I'm going to break up this response into two or three posts to take this step-by-step starting with this as the first:

Now, let's see what happens when you piece ALL of the scriptures together. This is how "prophetic telescoping" works:

The passage you quoted is Matthew 23:34–36, and there is a very important biblical pattern here: Jesus was speaking about something that had already happened in Israel's history, something that was happening in His own generation, and a pattern of persecution that Scripture shows occurring again in the future.
The key is to distinguish the historical fulfillment from the recurring prophetic pattern.

1. Jesus begins with Israel's past​

Jesus says:

He deliberately goes all the way back to Abel.
Abel was killed by Cain:

Then throughout Israel's history, God's messengers were repeatedly rejected and killed.
For example:
Urijah was killed by King Jehoiakim:

Zechariah son of Jehoiada was stoned in the temple:

Jesus therefore isn't introducing a new phenomenon. He's saying, essentially:
“This is the same pattern your fathers have followed throughout Israel's history.”
Jesus had already described that pattern in Matthew 23:29–31:

And then:

---

2. Then Jesus says the pattern is happening again in His own generation​

Notice the future tense:

Jesus is looking forward only a short time here.
He would send His apostles and other witnesses, and they would be persecuted.
And that's exactly what Acts records.

Stephen​

Stephen was murdered:

James​

Herod killed James:

The apostles were persecuted​

Jesus' prediction in Matthew 23:34 corresponds closely to what He had already told His disciples:

And Paul describes the persecution of believers:

So Matthew 23:34 absolutely had a near-term fulfillment.

---

3. But Scripture shows the same pattern occurring again​

This is where your question becomes particularly interesting.
Jesus' statement isn't merely describing one isolated event. Scripture repeatedly presents the persecution and killing of God's witnesses as a recurring pattern that reaches another climax at the end of the age.
Jesus says in Matthew 24:

Then He says:

And:

So there is a progression:
past prophets → Christ and apostles → end-time witnesses

---

4. Revelation gives us an especially striking future example​

Look at Revelation 11.
God has two witnesses who prophesy:

Then:

Their bodies are left lying in Jerusalem:

And then they are resurrected:

That is remarkably similar to the pattern Jesus describes:
God sends His witnesses → the witnesses testify → they are rejected → persecuted → killed → God vindicates them.

---

​

Buddy I’m on the verge of blocking

 

[Pilgrimshope]

My point in using A.I. is to express MY view in the best way possible so everyone might understand it easier. Although, I haven't had to use any specific prompts in my A.I. requests lately, I usually recommend to everyone to tell it to give them "Bible answers only". It can be just as simple as that. Let it search the text of the scriptures only to get the answers to your questions.

I’m not interested ai …..,is grooming you

 

[Revelation1v8]

Reposting ai answers is a waste of time I’m not even reading them at this point

That's because you're in denial. We already know that Jesus returns to Jerusalem, but this next time will be protect Jerusalem and set up His kingdom there.

Zechariah 12:1-3, 6-10

1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

7 The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

 

[Revelation1v8]

Buddy I’m on the verge of blocking

That's how denial works. Let the Holy Spirit lead you instead.

 

[OMC]

I’m not interested ai …..,is grooming you

I would like some proof of what you claim is even possible. AI, grooming? Really?

 

[Revelation1v8]

I’m not interested ai …..,is grooming you

No, this is what I've been telling you from the beginning about "prophetic telescoping", but none of you understood it. So, I used A.I. to show step-by-step how it works in a way that you could finally understand.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I’m not interested ai …..,is grooming you.

a try prayer and asking god to help you understand his word as you study . It’s something he desires and will answer

“If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

why look to the worldly to explain God?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

No, this is what I've been telling you from the beginning about "prophetic telescoping", but none of you understood it. So, I used A.I. to show step-by-step how it works in a way that you could finally understand.

I’m not interested in ai I’ve already been shown it’s terrible flaws . But listen that doesn’t mean you can’t or shouldn’t use it . I’m not interested others here are find one of them

 

[OMC]

I’m not interested in ai I’ve already been shown it’s terrible flaws . But listen that doesn’t mean you can’t or shouldn’t use it . I’m not interested others here are find one of them

FYI, I have found issues with Rev's use of AI and we disagree on some things because I test what he says against scripture. It's not his AI that I have an issue with. It's his use of it. And that I address regularly lol.

 

[Psalm1]

The covenant is through Jesus blood. That's the reason it is really "blood covenant " , blood of who? Blood of Jesus.
Through Jesus blood covenant, one is saved.

If an ethnic jew die last night, not accepting Jesus as Lord and savior, sorry to say according to Jesus, this ethnic jew is with the rich man in hell. Ref. Luke 16: 19-31.

Therefore the key is to follow Jesus right now. John 3:16-21.

Both replacement theology, And us Bible students agree with all that.

Both ends of the debate agree with all that.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I would like some proof of what you claim is even possible. AI, grooming? Really?

So go find it . I’m not here to prove anything about artificial intelligence to anyone .

try studying with the author of the Bible .

 

[Pilgrimshope]

FYI, I have found issues with Rev's use of AI and we disagree on some things because I test what he says against scripture. It's not his AI that I have an issue with. It's his use of it. And that I address regularly lol.

Yeah it’s artificial in my view you guys should use it to study and then come here and discuss. Good study tool , bad apostle and teacher