Replacement theology? Yes or No.

[Revelation1v8]

Your “UNDER heaven = on earth” claim collapses the moment you read Daniel’s own usage: “under heaven” in Daniel never means “on earth during a temporary kingdom,” it means the entire created order after God has crushed every earthly dominion.

God/Jesus does crush the current earthly order when He returns to set up His own Kingdom, but the new Kingdom is still on the earth to be set straight before it is made permanent in Heaven.

 

[OMC]

God/Jesus does crush the current earthly order when He returns to set up His own Kingdom, but the new Kingdom is still on the earth to be set straight before it is made permanent in Heaven.

No passage in Scripture teaches two kingdoms — one earthly, then one heavenly

 

[Revelation1v8]

You’re right to quote Acts 28:23—but look carefully at what it actually says and what it doesn’t.
Paul “expounded and testified the kingdom of God…concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.”
That tells you content (Jesus as fulfillment of Moses and the prophets) and scope (kingdom of God), but it never says the kingdom is a future earthly geopolitical state.
When Luke summarizes the same ministry a few verses later, he repeats it: “preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ” (Acts 28:31).
Still no “earthly,” no “national restoration,” no “millennial state.”
Paul himself defines the kingdom as “righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost” (Rom 14:17)—present, spiritual rule in Christ, not a postponed political kingdom.
So Acts 28:23 supports that Paul preached Christ as the fulfillment of the OT kingdom promises; it does not add the word “earthly” you’re trying to smuggle into the text.

No, what Paul is teaching everyone in Acts 28:23 is the same that Jesus told everyone in Luke 24:44.

Acts 28:23 - And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Luke 24:44 - And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

 

[OMC]

No, what Paul is teaching everyone in Acts 28:23 is the same that Jesus told everyone in Luke 24:44.

Acts 28:23 - And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Luke 24:44 - And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Acts 28:23 and Luke 24:44 absolutely match each other — but they match in a way that undercuts the claim you’re trying to build.
In Luke 24:44 Jesus says everything in Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms is fulfilled in Him, not in a future geopolitical kingdom; and in Acts 28:23 Paul expounds the kingdom of God concerning Jesus from Moses and the Prophets, meaning Paul is doing exactly what Jesus said — showing how the OT finds its fulfillment in Christ’s person, work, resurrection, and present reign, not in a postponed earthly state.

 

[Revelation1v8]

No passage in Scripture teaches two kingdoms — one earthly, then one heavenly

I disagree. There are TOO MANY SCRIPTURES that teach exactly what I'm saying:

The Bible teaches a dual-phase structure for God’s Kingdom, encompassing both a present heavenly reality and a future earthly fulfillment. This distinction is highlighted by the use of "Kingdom of Heaven" in the Gospel of Matthew, which contrasts God’s rule with human earthly kingdoms, while other texts refer to the "Kingdom of God" as the broader, universal reign.

Heavenly Phase

• Spiritual and Invisible: The spiritual component of the Kingdom is currently active but invisible, consisting of believers who have heavenly citizenship and rule with Christ from heaven (John 14:3; Philippians 3:20).
• Divine Throne: God’s throne is established in heaven, where He exercises absolute sovereignty over the spiritual realm and the inhabitants of the earth (Psalm 11:4; Psalm 103:19).

Earthly Phase

• Future Restoration: Biblical prophecy, particularly in Daniel and Revelation, foretells a time when God’s Kingdom will physically crush all earthly powers and be established on earth (Daniel 2:44; Revelation 11:15).
• New Creation: The ultimate fulfillment involves a "New Heaven and New Earth," where the heavenly Jerusalem descends to earth, and believers reign in physical, tangible bodies in a restored creation (Revelation 21:2–3).

Theological Synthesis

• Two Seeds: God’s promise to Abraham distinguished between a spiritual seed ("as the stars") and an earthly seed ("as the sand"), representing the two phases of the Kingdom (Genesis 22:17).
• Unified Rule: While distinct in phase and manifestation, both kingdoms are ruled by the same King, Jesus Christ, who will ultimately unify heaven and earth, ensuring God’s will is done on earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10).

 

[OMC]

I disagree. There are TOO MANY SCRIPTURES that teach exactly what I'm saying:

The Bible teaches a dual-phase structure for God’s Kingdom, encompassing both a present heavenly reality and a future earthly fulfillment. This distinction is highlighted by the use of "Kingdom of Heaven" in the Gospel of Matthew, which contrasts God’s rule with human earthly kingdoms, while other texts refer to the "Kingdom of God" as the broader, universal reign.

Heavenly Phase

• Spiritual and Invisible: The spiritual component of the Kingdom is currently active but invisible, consisting of believers who have heavenly citizenship and rule with Christ from heaven (John 14:3; Philippians 3:20).
• Divine Throne: God’s throne is established in heaven, where He exercises absolute sovereignty over the spiritual realm and the inhabitants of the earth (Psalm 11:4; Psalm 103:19).

Earthly Phase

• Future Restoration: Biblical prophecy, particularly in Daniel and Revelation, foretells a time when God’s Kingdom will physically crush all earthly powers and be established on earth (Daniel 2:44; Revelation 11:15).
• New Creation: The ultimate fulfillment involves a "New Heaven and New Earth," where the heavenly Jerusalem descends to earth, and believers reign in physical, tangible bodies in a restored creation (Revelation 21:2–3).

Theological Synthesis

• Two Seeds: God’s promise to Abraham distinguished between a spiritual seed ("as the stars") and an earthly seed ("as the sand"), representing the two phases of the Kingdom (Genesis 22:17).
• Unified Rule: While distinct in phase and manifestation, both kingdoms are ruled by the same King, Jesus Christ, who will ultimately unify heaven and earth, ensuring God’s will is done on earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10).

Your “two‑phase kingdom” claim collapses because every text you cite is being forced into a structure the Bible never teaches: Matthew’s “kingdom of heaven” is not a different phase but Matthew’s Jewish reverence‑phrase for God (compare Matt 19:23 with Mark 10:23 — same event, same meaning), so your entire NT distinction evaporates; John 14:3 and Phil 3:20 describe present heavenly citizenship, not a future earthly phase; Psalm 11:4 and 103:19 simply say God’s throne is in heaven, not that He will later move it to earth for a temporary kingdom; Daniel 2:44 says God’s kingdom crushes all earthly kingdoms, not that it coexists with them for 1,000 years; Revelation 11:15 says the moment Christ takes His reign, the kingdoms of this world become His, not “become a millennial phase”; Revelation 21–22 shows the new creation as the final kingdom, not a second phase after an earthly one; Genesis 22:17’s “stars” and “sand” are not two seeds but two metaphors for one innumerable seed (Paul says the seed is Christ, Gal 3:16); and Matthew 6:10 is not two phases but one prayer — God’s will done on earth when heaven and earth are united in the new creation (Rev 21:1–3). Nothing in Scripture teaches a temporary earthly kingdom followed by a heavenly one; every text you cite teaches one kingdom, fulfilled in Christ, consummated in the new creation.

 

[Revelation1v8]

Acts 28:23 and Luke 24:44 absolutely match each other — but they match in a way that undercuts the claim you’re trying to build.
In Luke 24:44 Jesus says everything in Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms is fulfilled in Him, not in a future geopolitical kingdom; and in Acts 28:23 Paul expounds the kingdom of God concerning Jesus from Moses and the Prophets, meaning Paul is doing exactly what Jesus said — showing how the OT finds its fulfillment in Christ’s person, work, resurrection, and present reign, not in a postponed earthly state.

What you continually ignore is that both Paul and Jesus are talking about fulfilling the Old Testament prophecies, which a few of you think are only spiritual in nature instead of physical in nature. I have always told you that they are both, but you just don't see it yet.

 

[Revelation1v8]

Your “two‑phase kingdom” claim collapses because every text you cite is being forced into a structure the Bible never teaches: Matthew’s “kingdom of heaven” is not a different phase but Matthew’s Jewish reverence‑phrase for God (compare Matt 19:23 with Mark 10:23 — same event, same meaning), so your entire NT distinction evaporates; John 14:3 and Phil 3:20 describe present heavenly citizenship, not a future earthly phase; Psalm 11:4 and 103:19 simply say God’s throne is in heaven, not that He will later move it to earth for a temporary kingdom; Daniel 2:44 says God’s kingdom crushes all earthly kingdoms, not that it coexists with them for 1,000 years; Revelation 11:15 says the moment Christ takes His reign, the kingdoms of this world become His, not “become a millennial phase”; Revelation 21–22 shows the new creation as the final kingdom, not a second phase after an earthly one; Genesis 22:17’s “stars” and “sand” are not two seeds but two metaphors for one innumerable seed (Paul says the seed is Christ, Gal 3:16); and Matthew 6:10 is not two phases but one prayer — God’s will done on earth when heaven and earth are united in the new creation (Rev 21:1–3). Nothing in Scripture teaches a temporary earthly kingdom followed by a heavenly one; every text you cite teaches one kingdom, fulfilled in Christ, consummated in the new creation.

Now you're just ignoring all of the Bible verses explaining how Jesus will reign over the current earth with a rod of iron. There is no reason for Jesus to reign over Heaven with a rod of iron. He will break the current governments and set up a new system/Kingdom on the earth before it is made permanent.

• Psalm 2:9 — "Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."
• Revelation 2:27 — "And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father."
• Revelation 12:5 — "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne."
• Revelation 19:15 — "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

Your entire argument collapses when we see the New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven AFTER the period in which Jesus rules over the earth in righteousness.

That's why the Bible tells you that Jesus will physically become KING over all the earth.

Zechariah 14:9 -
And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

 

[OMC]

Now you're just ignoring all of the Bible verses explaining how Jesus will reign over the current earth with a rod of iron. There is no reason for Jesus to reign over Heaven with a rod of iron. He will break the current governments and set up a new system/Kingdom on the earth before it is made permanent.

• Psalm 2:9 — "Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."
• Revelation 2:27 — "And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father."
• Revelation 12:5 — "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne."
• Revelation 19:15 — "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

Your entire argument collapses when we see the New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven AFTER the period in which Jesus rules over the earth in righteousness.

That's why the Bible tells you that Jesus will physically become KING over all the earth.

Zechariah 14:9 -
And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

Every “rod of iron” text you cite describes judgment, not administration, and every passage you use to prove a temporary earthly kingdom actually proves the opposite:
Psalm 2:9 is God warning the nations that Messiah will shatter them, not govern them;
Revelation 2:27 says the same — “rule with a rod of iron” means break to pieces, not “manage survivors”;
Revelation 12:5 shows the child caught up to God’s throne, meaning the rod‑of‑iron authority is exercised from heaven, not from an earthly throne;
Revelation 19:15 is the final destruction of the nations, not the beginning of a millennial government; and
Zechariah 14:9 says the Lord becomes king over all the earth after cosmic collapse, which matches the day of the Lord destruction (2 Pet 3:10–13), not a 1,000‑year intermission.
The world‑system driving your interpretation is the earth‑kingdom assumption — the belief that nations survive Christ’s appearing long enough for Him to run a transitional government, even though every rod‑of‑iron text says He destroys them, not supervises them.
Revelation’s sequence is judgment → destruction → marriage supper → new creation, not “judgment → millennium → new creation.” Nothing in your verses teaches a temporary earthly kingdom; every one teaches final wrath, final victory, and final new creation

 

[Revelation1v8]

Every “rod of iron” text you cite describes judgment, not administration, and every passage you use to prove a temporary earthly kingdom actually proves the opposite:
Psalm 2:9 is God warning the nations that Messiah will shatter them, not govern them;
Revelation 2:27 says the same — “rule with a rod of iron” means break to pieces, not “manage survivors”;
Revelation 12:5 shows the child caught up to God’s throne, meaning the rod‑of‑iron authority is exercised from heaven, not from an earthly throne;
Revelation 19:15 is the final destruction of the nations, not the beginning of a millennial government; and
Zechariah 14:9 says the Lord becomes king over all the earth after cosmic collapse, which matches the day of the Lord destruction (2 Pet 3:10–13), not a 1,000‑year intermission.
The world‑system driving your interpretation is the earth‑kingdom assumption — the belief that nations survive Christ’s appearing long enough for Him to run a transitional government, even though every rod‑of‑iron text says He destroys them, not supervises them.
Revelation’s sequence is judgment → destruction → marriage supper → new creation, not “judgment → millennium → new creation.” Nothing in your verses teaches a temporary earthly kingdom; every one teaches final wrath, final victory, and final new creation

Now you're just ignoring these verses:

Isaiah 2:2–4 (ESV)

• "It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and all the nations shall flow to it,"
• "and many peoples shall come, and say: 'Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.' For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."
• "And he shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore."

Micah 4:1–3 (ESV)

• "It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and it shall be lifted up above the hills; and peoples shall flow to it."
• "And many nations shall come, and say: 'Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob, and he will teach us his ways and we will walk in his paths.' For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."
• "And he shall judge between many peoples and decide disputes for mighty nations far away; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore."

Zechariah 14:16–19 (ESV)

• "Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths."

Jesus won't be teaching people how to walk in His ways in Heaven because we'll already know them.

 

[Beekeeper]

I already addressed some of that on page 158 in my posts here #3,146 and here #3,147.

Likewise, I think you are already committed to not understanding me, which is another reason I made the two step-by-step posts explaining how the Bible is written as it pertains to these things.

Plus, I'll throw in again what I've already posted here for your review on page 159 in post #3,175 (just click the link for it to take you there). This addresses how the Old Testament works in conjunction with the New Testament to spell out end time events.

I probably already understand you.
You ignore history in your interpretation of Rev. 17 and 18, and seek to exonerate yourself with a list of prophetic writings that you have also ignored the history of.
Unless you are willing to ask the same sorts of questions that I ask, none of that can lead to an interesting conversation.
I already know how dispensationalist grab at prophetic words to support their futuristic model and am familiar with the interpretations you present.

 

[Revelation1v8]

I probably already understand you.
You ignore history in your interpretation of Rev. 17 and 18, and seek to exonerate yourself with a list of prophetic writings that you have also ignored the history of.
Unless you are willing to ask the same sorts of questions that I ask, none of that can lead to an interesting conversation.
I already know how dispensationalist grab at prophetic words to support their futuristic model and am familiar with the interpretations you present.

I'm not ignoring history.

You're ignoring PROPHECIES and you don't recognize the pattern in which they have been written THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE BIBLE.

 

[OMC]

Now you're just ignoring these verses:

Isaiah 2:2–4 (ESV)

• "It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and all the nations shall flow to it,"
• "and many peoples shall come, and say: 'Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.' For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."
• "And he shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore."

Micah 4:1–3 (ESV)

• "It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and it shall be lifted up above the hills; and peoples shall flow to it."
• "And many nations shall come, and say: 'Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob, and he will teach us his ways and we will walk in his paths.' For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."
• "And he shall judge between many peoples and decide disputes for mighty nations far away; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore."

Zechariah 14:16–19 (ESV)

• "Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths."

Jesus won't be teaching people how to walk in His ways in Heaven because we'll already know them.

If I may pause this rodeo we riding and ask if you think we spend eternity in heaven or on earth?

 

[Toddini]

If I may pause this rodeo we riding and ask if you think we spend eternity in heaven or on earth?

If I may weigh in, Earth

 

[Beekeeper]

I'm not ignoring history.

You're ignoring PROPHECIES and you don't recognize the pattern in which they have been written THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE BIBLE.

Ok then.
You understand that Zechariah lived in "troublous times" (daniel 9:25)?
Did you understand that when Zechariah 12 was written Jerusalem had no walls and was under constant attack?
God defended them miraculously in the chapter, exalting Judah in battle and bringing spiritual revival to the people.
Would you consider that that may be the time that Zechariah 12:9 is speaking about?

I may have underestimated you in assuming that you are too enthusiastic about your future predictions to consider these possibilities.
Other dispensationalists that I have discussed these things with are blinkered in that way, but if I misjudge you I am sorry.

 

[Revelation1v8]

If I may pause this rodeo we riding and ask if you think we spend eternity in heaven or on earth?

We spend eternity in Heaven. The only question is whether or not we'll have to return to the earth for a time before Heaven is the only eternity.

 

[Revelation1v8]

Ok then.
You understand that Zechariah lived in "troublous times" (daniel 9:25)?
Did you understand that when Zechariah 12 was written Jerusalem had no walls and was under constant attack?
God defended them miraculously in the chapter, exalting Judah in battle and bringing spiritual revival to the people.
Would you consider that that may be the time that Zechariah 12:9 is speaking about?

I may have underestimated you in assuming that you are too enthusiastic about your future predictions to consider these possibilities.
Other dispensationalists that I have discussed these things with are blinkered in that way, but if I misjudge you I am sorry.

I've taken all of that in consideration. That's why I showed the pattern of how prophecy is written. History repeats itself and when it does, it's on a much larger scale that involves the whole world and not just Israel/Jews. The whole EARTH will once again turn its back on Jerusalem (Zechariah 12). That's where God/Jesus steps in to cut down all of the nations that comes up against Jerusalem and judge them upon His Second Coming. He will cut out 2/3 of the people in the land and preserve 1/3 of them to remain in the land according to Zechariah 13:8-9. This is when the whole earth will finally recognize Jesus as God (Zechariah 14:9) and He will reign as King over all of the earth (earthly Millennial Kingdom) before the permanent New Jerusalem/Heaven descends from Heaven.

 

[Revelation1v8]

If I may weigh in, Earth

Based on Revelation 21 & 22, what makes you think that? All of the scriptures describing the Millennial Kingdom period, I bet?

 

[Beekeeper]

I've taken all of that in consideration. That's why I showed the pattern of how prophecy is written. History repeats itself and when it does, it's on a much larger scale that involves the whole world and not just Israel/Jews. The whole EARTH will once again turn its back on Jerusalem (Zechariah 12). That's where God/Jesus steps in to cut down all of the nations that comes up against Jerusalem and judge them upon His Second Coming. He will cut out 2/3 of the people in the land and preserve 1/3 of them to remain in the land according to Zechariah 13:8-9. This is when the whole earth will finally recognize Jesus as God (Zechariah 14:9) and He will reign as King over all of the earth (earthly Millennial Kingdom) before the permanent New Jerusalem/Heaven descends from Heaven.

But you never write about the original fulfillment, only the ones that you "telescope".
That is disingenuous, because how do we know that you are reusing these prophesies correctly?
Yet you present your futuristic expectations as if they are the actual fulfillment.
Are you also among the prophets?
1 Samuel 10:11.

 

[cv5]

I think a lot of that problem is just due to Christian churches mostly teaching from the New Testament instead of the full Bible and they just don't know. Some people here obviously have a thorn in their side about Israel/Jews, but I don't think the majority here do.

Some don't care much. Others intentionally obstruct and obfuscate.

Both are in serious trouble when the Lord comes to settle accounts.