Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation

XavierJesusLovesIndia · May 14, 2022

Agree. St. John the Apostle teaches the same in 1 Jn 3:

"11For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. 12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

13Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. 14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Inquisitor · May 14, 2022

Goliath said:

Your opening sentence was a bit messy. I don't believe that anything you said was accurate.

For example, those who teach "grace" are actually quoting Paul.

For by grace you have been saved through faith...(Ephesians 2:8)

Anyone who disagrees is a heretic, that is, according to the very words of the apostle Paul.

We also know that Peter deferred to Paul and regarded Paul's letters as scripture.

So what is the focus of the New Testament?

You would have to ask Paul, as he wrote a third of the New Testament.

Paul's clarity in writing about Christianity is unrivalled.

So when Paul says, For by grace we are saved through faith, that is the end of the debate.

Goliath · May 14, 2022

crossnote said:

Brother...I asked because Many folks believe the Gospel of Jesus is for the Jew, not the Gentiles.
And if they dismiss the teachings of Jesus Christ, believing them to be for the Jews, they will not build on his foundation. And we all know the parable...
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.
(Matthew 7:24,26)

So, Why did Jesus choose Paul?
It was not to bring us a Newer Covenant, but it was because of who Paul was...his position in the community. Gentiles, by the hundreds were following Jesus, but as you said...the Jews rejected Jesus.
Why?
Despite all of the miracles...the teachers of the Law, rejected Jesus. And because they rejected Jesus, so did the sheep (Jews) who followed these shepherds. The Gentiles, not having these blind guides, believed because of the miracles. So Jesus, in his infinite wisdom, knew the Jews would not follow him, unless he converted one of their teachers. And who better than a man like Paul...a man who not only rejected Jesus, but a man who hated his followers so much..he was murdering them.

Many don't know this, and I don't expect you to believe me, but Jesus foretold of this in one of his parables.

XavierJesusLovesIndia · May 14, 2022

Rabbi Saul, great Apostle though he is, is not greater than Rabbi Yeshua, Jesus Christ Our Lord and Savior. And St. Peter, St. James and St. John, who were part of the original 12, are as great as he is. Those who believe works are of no value cannot prove that from any Scripture or even from two Apostles. St. Peter clearly said there are some things in St. Paul's letters that are hard to understand. St. Paul himself teaches Good Works done post Justification have Rewards. The same was taught by the Lord, and by the other Apostles.

The early Christians did great Good Works like building Charities and Hospitals, and converting whole nations, like England, France, Ireland, Germany etc to Christ and His Church. We don't see that level of Good Works today because many are sadly convinced works are valueless. Not what the Bible teaches at all. One should read ALL OF THE BIBLE AND CHRIST AND ALL HIS APOSTLES AS A WHOLE.

The Value of Good Works in Hebrews, which most believe was written by St. Paul:

Heb 6:9-12: "9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised."

Heb 11:24; 32-36 "And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works ... 32But recall the former days in which, after you were [h]illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your [j]goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves [k]in heaven. 35Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

Heb 13:15-16; 20-21: "15Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, [d]giving thanks to His name. 16But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased ...

20Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21make you [f]complete in every good work to do His will, working in [g]you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen."

Goliath · May 14, 2022

Inquisitor said:

The problem with people who believe they are following Paul's epistles, is....they don't follow Gods cardinal rule.
What rule Is that?
“Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.”

Paul is subject to this rule...and as a matter of fact...taught this very rule.
If you want make a strong argument about his teachings on Grace...show us other teachers in the Bible, who teach your interpretation of Paul. Make no mistake, I do not reject Paul, I reject your interpretation...so don't confuse one with the other.

Paul said he built his teachings upon the teachings of Jesus Christ. So surely, it should be very easy for you to find something in the Lords Gospel, as witness to your interpretation.

XavierJesusLovesIndia · May 14, 2022

Three Witnesses for a Merciful Reward Promised by God's Grace for Good Works done with Faith Post-Justification:

I. First, and Most Important, Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ Himself:

"4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." (Mat 6:4).

II. Second, that of St. Paul, the Apostle of Faith, in 1 Corinthians 3:8:

"8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor." (1 Cor 3:8).

III. Third, that of St. John, the Apostle of Love, in 2 John 1:8:

"Watch yourselves so you don’t lose what we have worked for, but that you may receive a full reward." (2 Jn 1:8).

Snacks · May 14, 2022

Goliath said:

You literally wrote that Christ loves the slaves of sin so much that He died for them, and then you turn around and say if you can’t forgive someone then you are not saved. Do you see the oxymoronic nature of your statements?

I watched a documentary about David Berkowitz, aka, Son of Sam. 40+ years after his crimes, his victims’ families are still filled with hatred, rage and a desire to see him suffer forever. I thank God I have not been put in a situation, at least as of yet, where I need to forgive on that level.

If you place your faith in Jesus Christ you are a new creation and have eternal life no matter how imperfect you are after placing your faith in Him. God’s grace is sufficient.

ResidentAlien · May 14, 2022

" 'Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.' And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints."—Revelation 19:7-8

How can anyone expect to be arrayed in clean, bright linen without acts of righteousness?

"But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. So he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.' "—Matthew 22:11-14

arthurfleminger · May 14, 2022

Goliath said:

Goliath, you are very correct in your assertion, " Can you love a Child Molester, a Rapist, a Liar, a murderer, an Adulterer?
If not, you are not saved."

You cite heinous sinners in your example. But there was never a greater sin than the murder and crucifixion of Jesus. Yet, while in agony and on the cross, He loved and forgave those who perpetrated the worst of all sins against Jesus, God Himself. He gave His life on the cross even for those who murdered Him, how much greater love could there be?

Many Christians have no clue about love of God and love of neighbor. Christian love is not some 'warm and fuzzy' feeling in one's heart/mind. Examine the Scriptures and you'll find that we show love of God by obeying His commandments and through love of neighbor. We show love of neighbor by treating them as though we wish to be treated; with our forgiveness for the wrongs they do us, with compassion, with our help when needed....etc...

Love of God and neighbor definitely implies 'doing something' call it works through faith and love.

In the parable of the Good Samaritan Jesus makes it so/so clear, "Love God with your whole heart and your neighbor as yourself and you shall have eternal life.

XavierJesusLovesIndia · May 14, 2022

Rev 14:12-13: "
12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."

montana123 · May 14, 2022

crossnote said:

Lucifer caused some of the angels to rebel and he is going to cause the world to rebel against God for He is allowing it to happen because He will not give up on the world until the world rebels against Him and because He has to end sin on earth one day so He is allowing all people that do not love Him to follow the New Age Christ who gets his power from Satan and then He will end sin on earth.

So it has to happen eventually that a belief system like the new age movement, the occult would happen that would deceive the world to believe they will have an exalted position like Satan tempted Eve that she would have an exalted position if she ate the fruit.

As long as there is one nation that allows the Gospel to be preached God would not put the world down but the nations will come together and stop the preaching of the Gospel and will only allow the new age movement interpretation of religions to be taught which is the time they will not want to hear the truth of the Bible.

Seeking-Christ · May 14, 2022

Nehemiah6 said:

I thought about the faith as a mustard seed, when i posted that. I feel that I'm probably going to write blog about my frustration with Salvation.

crossnote · May 14, 2022

Goliath said:

Right, I don't ascribe to any kind of Two-Covenant theology.

Goliath said:

It tells why in Scripture...

(Act 9:15) But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;
(Act 9:16) for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake."

(well I guess that disproves my emphasis on Paul being sent mainly to the Gentiles)

crossnote · May 14, 2022

montana123 said:

Lucifer caused some of the angels to rebel and he is going to cause the world to rebel against God for He is allowing it to happen because He will not give up on the world until the world rebels against Him and because He has to end sin on earth one day so He is allowing all people that do not love Him to follow the New Age Christ who gets his power from Satan and then He will end sin on earth.

So it has to happen eventually that a belief system like the new age movement, the occult would happen that would deceive the world to believe they will have an exalted position like Satan tempted Eve that she would have an exalted position if she ate the fruit.

As long as there is one nation that allows the Gospel to be preached God would not put the world down but the nations will come together and stop the preaching of the Gospel and will only allow the new age movement interpretation of religions to be taught which is the time they will not want to hear the truth of the Bible.

Thanks for your opinions.

crossnote · May 14, 2022

XavierJesusLovesIndia said:

I've asked "Where in Scripture do you find ‘an increase of justification by good works’?"
Here in Romans 5 it says '
(Rom 5:1) Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.-CSB

(Rom 5:1) Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,-NASB

(Rom 5:1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: -KJV

These indicate a past one time act of being justified, not an ongoing 'increase of justification'.

Aren't you introducing a concept foreign to Scripture?

crossnote · May 14, 2022

True faith will have works accompany it..yet...
works without true faith is IMPOSSIBLE.

Inquisitor · May 14, 2022

Goliath said:

The problem with people who believe they are following Paul's epistles, is....they don't follow Gods cardinal rule.
What rule Is that?
“Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.”

Paul is subject to this rule...and as a matter of fact...taught this very rule.
If you want make a strong argument about his teachings on Grace...show us other teachers in the Bible, who teach your interpretation of Paul. Make no mistake, I do not reject Paul, I reject your interpretation...so don't confuse one with the other.

Paul said he built his teachings upon the teachings of Jesus Christ. So surely, it should be very easy for you to find something in the Lords Gospel, as witness to your interpretation.

Snacks · May 14, 2022

arthurfleminger said:

Goliath, you are very correct in your assertion, " Can you love a Child Molester, a Rapist, a Liar, a murderer, an Adulterer?
If not, you are not saved."

You cite heinous sinners in your example. But there was never a greater sin than the murder and crucifixion of Jesus. Yet, while in agony and on the cross, He loved and forgave those who perpetrated the worst of all sins against Jesus, God Himself. He gave His life on the cross even for those who murdered Him, how much greater love could there be?

Many Christians have no clue about love of God and love of neighbor. Christian love is not some 'warm and fuzzy' feeling in one's heart/mind. Examine the Scriptures and you'll find that we show love of God by obeying His commandments and through love of neighbor. We show love of neighbor by treating them as though we wish to be treated; with our forgiveness for the wrongs they do us, with compassion, with our help when needed....etc...

Love of God and neighbor definitely implies 'doing something' call it works through faith and love.

In the parable of the Good Samaritan Jesus makes it so/so clear, "Love God with your whole heart and your neighbor as yourself and you shall have eternal life.

You sustain your salvation through works?

Inquisitor · May 14, 2022

Goliath said:

You seem confused.

Your so called "cardinal rule', is simply the the basis of establishing on the basis of witness accounts. The guilt or innocence of the of the accused party and always in reference to the law. We still follow this procedure in our modern law courts.

Deuteronomy 17:6
On the testimony of two witnesses or three witnesses, the condemned shall be put to death.

This cardinal rule as you call it, is not how one identifies a truth statement (a doctrine) in the scripture.

A doctrine is a very important statement that God has made to mankind.

For example, the belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is really all that is necessary to be saved.

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

As simple as saying abc, a powerful truth statement and probably the number one doctrine in Christianity.

You do not need anyone else to confirm or deny that declaration, that God has made through the apostle.

I have not yet declared an interpretation of the scripture, all I have done is print what Paul said.

How about we listen to Peter instead.

Acts 15:11
But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.

There is no question that we are only saved by the grace of Jesus Christ.

Paul did not build his doctrines on the teaching of Jesus Christ. Paul received what He wrote directly by revelation. Paul had little contact with the apostles, I suggest you read the letter to the Galatians.

Abe1496 · May 14, 2022

Inquisitor said:

Yes that is what the man Paul says, but it is not what the Second Person of the Trinity, Our Lord and God Jesus said. Arthurfleminger has already pointed this out. In Matthew's Judgement of Nations Cha 25 we read:

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was hungry, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
I guess I am a heretic because I believe these words of Our Divine Lord and Savior that the righteous (who apparently have done good works) will go into life eternal. I don't see where Our Divine Lord, God, and Savior mentions that faith was part of the requirement?

Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation

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