REVELATION

[88]

Hello 88,

There are several things chronologically out of place in the chart above, as Iam sure you have noticed.

1). Seals 1 thru 5 should be included within the seven years as belonging to God's wrath

2). Jesus does not return to the earth in the middle of the seven years, for scripture has him returning after the 7th bowl has been poured out, not before.

3). The new Jerusalem does not come down on this present earth, but to the new earth and that after the millennial period and the great white throne judgment, which follows.

4). The 144,000 are not children, for Rev.14 states that they will have not defiled themselves with woman making them adult males, ergo, the male child who Israel gives birth to.

**** right....-- maybe you could post a chart that is colorful and factual...

 

[Ahwatukee]

**** right....-- maybe you could post a chart that is colorful and factual...

Morning 88,

I have an Excel chart of end-time events. I would like to create one that I could copy and post to the forum. I'll have to figure out how to do that.

 

[88]

Revelation Chapter 8. ******* Let's look into this Chapter----it starts with silence in heaven for about 30 minutes----this is a foreboding pause concerning the gravity of the coming Trumpet Judgments--- these judgments will be awful--- 7 Angels with 7 Trumpets to sound judgment are standing before God---more of God's judgments are to be released upon the Earth, but before this the prayers of the saints with incense are offered before the Throne of God--- there will be some spared even in this dark hour who are aligning with Christ---- the angel fill the censer with fire from the altar and cast it to the Earth causing thunder, lightening, and an earthquake----Now the 7 Angels prepare to sound---- the first sounds and destruction hits the Earth --- one third of trees and grass are destroyed on the Earth----the second trumpet sounds and a great mountain ( a large firery meteor falls in the Ocean turning a third blood red and one third of sea life dies and one third of the ships are destroyed ---- the thiird trumpet sounds and a burning meteor or atomic warhead falls on the fresh water---and turns them bitter with death (Wormwood) this name Wormwood in Russian is Chernobyl--- the site of the 1988 nuclear disaster---God will send His judgment as in Jeremiah 9:15 for idolatry---" I am about to feed this people Wormwood and give them poisonous water to drink"----I will finish this Chapter later--- but it is obvious this is not like any other time on Earth---- we should be warning and preparing people for Christ's coming---- getting extra oil and being faithful stewards...

 

[garee]

You also need to be able to connect the book of revelation with that of Daniel. Remember what was revealed to john is what it had been shown to daniel.. Dan 12:9 And he said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end....also christ quote Daniel when he was revealing to apostles what will happen in End times....and it is the same christ who was revealing to john what will happen in end times. Therefore you need the two books to understand prophesy plus history of this world because history is there to judge us all..

Daniel a tribe that was used to represent the judgment of God on the father of lies(the serpent) .Judas was used in the same way. 13-1=12


It is the one tribe not shown as part of the “12” in the book of Revelation that was used to represent His bride the church .
The Holy Spirit said "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end... ... (Not the end of time )

The time of the end began when Christ said it was finished.The veil was rent the graves where opened and the old testament saints that had the Spirit of Christ were resurrected into their temporal home the new Jerusalem. The first resurrection (rapture) of two.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end(the last days) many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

It is the time of trouble for the apostate Jew who was no longer being used as a metaphor in various parables as types and shadows until the time of reformation.. The time of reformation had come (the beginning of last days) the antichrist was already there.

Scripture (prophecy) is the one infallible source of the faith of God, the faith of Christ. God’s word is not subject to the different opinions of men as to history .It is its own history book which speaks of the things not seen. The faith principle of God. One book, the word of God.

 

[Rondonmon]

Revelation Chapter 8. ******* Let's look into this Chapter----it starts with silence in heaven for about 30 minutes----this is a foreboding pause concerning the gravity of the coming Trumpet Judgments--- these judgments will be awful--- 7 Angels with 7 Trumpets to sound judgment are standing before God---more of God's judgments are to be released upon the Earth, but before this the prayers of the saints with incense are offered before the Throne of God--- there will be some spared even in this dark hour who are aligning with Christ---- the angel fill the censer with fire from the altar and cast it to the Earth causing thunder, lightening, and an earthquake----Now the 7 Angels prepare to sound---- the first sounds and destruction hits the Earth --- one third of trees and grass are destroyed on the Earth----the second trumpet sounds and a great mountain ( a large firery meteor falls in the Ocean turning a third blood red and one third of sea life dies and one third of the ships are destroyed ---- the thiird trumpet sounds and a burning meteor or atomic warhead falls on the fresh water---and turns them bitter with death (Wormwood) this name Wormwood in Russian is Chernobyl--- the site of the 1988 nuclear disaster---God will send His judgment as in Jeremiah 9:15 for idolatry---" I am about to feed this people Wormwood and give them poisonous water to drink"----I will finish this Chapter later--- but it is obvious this is not like any other time on Earth---- we should be warning and preparing people for Christ's coming---- getting extra oil and being faithful stewards...

I don't see anyone else make this point, but I do. We know the Seals are the Wrath of the Lamb and the Vials are the Wrath of God. As you stated, we see that the prayers of the Saints are brought before God, co-mingled with fire, and cast back to earth as Judgments. My thoughts are that the Trumpet judgments are the Wrath of the Holy Spirit. The Two-witnesses prayers are probably a part of this golden censer brought before the throne of God. Its symmetry. I think like that, lol.

I think the star that falls is an Angel sent to poison the waters. Just like the star with the key to the bottomless pit is an angel, and the stars to the seven churches are angels.

 

[88]

Revelation Chapter 8. ******* Let's look into this Chapter----it starts with silence in heaven for about 30 minutes----this is a foreboding pause concerning the gravity of the coming Trumpet Judgments--- these judgments will be awful--- 7 Angels with 7 Trumpets to sound judgment are standing before God---more of God's judgments are to be released upon the Earth, but before this the prayers of the saints with incense are offered before the Throne of God--- there will be some spared even in this dark hour who are aligning with Christ---- the angel fill the censer with fire from the altar and cast it to the Earth causing thunder, lightening, and an earthquake----Now the 7 Angels prepare to sound---- the first sounds and destruction hits the Earth --- one third of trees and grass are destroyed on the Earth----the second trumpet sounds and a great mountain ( a large firery meteor falls in the Ocean turning a third blood red and one third of sea life dies and one third of the ships are destroyed ---- the thiird trumpet sounds and a burning meteor or atomic warhead falls on the fresh water---and turns them bitter with death (Wormwood) this name Wormwood in Russian is Chernobyl--- the site of the 1988 nuclear disaster---God will send His judgment as in Jeremiah 9:15 for idolatry---" I am about to feed this people Wormwood and give them poisonous water to drink"----I will finish this Chapter later--- but it is obvious this is not like any other time on Earth---- we should be warning and preparing people for Christ's coming---- getting extra oil and being faithful stewards...

***The Tribulation and Wormwood ****The word Chernobyl means wormwood**** (Chernobyl)*** The 1988 Russian Nuclear Disaster---this was a foreshadowing of things to come...

 

[Bladerunner]

My hope is in the second and only coming of Christ. Another hope I have is that Pre Tribbers will not fall away when they find themselves caught up in the tribulation and realise that everything they believed about it is a Satanic delusion.

and what are you going to do when we are gone and realize you on the wrong track.

 

[Bladerunner]

The GT is kicked off by worldwide death. One fourth of earths population is destroyed. Peace is taken from the entire earth. Death and hell are released upon earths population.

That is GREAT TRIBULATION.

The ac is the first to arrive. He has a crown. He rules the earth. His currency is the mark. All refusing die. The belivers are all gone before the first year. He is obsessed with their murder. He kills them all.

Popeye,,,,,,1/4 of the earths populations is destroyed is NOT what Revelation 6 states.

8. "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

The sentence actually reads that the power was given them over 1/4 of the earths surface, to kill............

It does not say that they are to kill 1/4 part of the earth.

In rev 9: "15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.


There is a difference.....If one looks at a map of the world,,,roughly 1/4 of the earth surface is in this general area. EU, Middle East , etc.
\

 

[samuel23]

I have thought about that one to, is 1/4 of the earth killed or is 1/4 of the earth where killing is taking place? At this point I am leaning to 1/4 of the population of the earth being killed.

 

[Bladerunner]

I have thought about that one to, is 1/4 of the earth killed or is 1/4 of the earth where killing is taking place? At this point I am leaning to 1/4 of the population of the earth being killed.

Then read my post 248..... it is 1/4 of the earth (surface), TO kill HOW , by sword, etc........

It is totally different from where it says "to slay 1/3 of Man" in other passages. Here Death and Hell were given a area of 1/4 of the earth to kill by sword, etc.

Pay careful attention to the punctuation.....This how one has to read the Bible.... Carefully almost word by word. Is it to be taken litterally, symbolically, etc. Is it a metaphor, simile, and almost 200 other types of sentence structure.

 

[samuel23]

Well, I hope that it is 1/4 of the surface rather then 1/4 of the population...either way it is going to be very bad, however the first way it would not be as bad.

 

[88]

I have thought about that one to, is 1/4 of the earth killed or is 1/4 of the earth where killing is taking place? At this point I am leaning to 1/4 of the population of the earth being killed.

***I see what the text is saying, but I get the impression that Death is personified and has authority over one fourth of the Earth to "kill"---to me this means death will dominate the population through plagues, the sword, hunger, and wild beasts---so in other words those that this area which is dominated by Death (one fourth) will perish...

 

[Bladerunner]

Well, I hope that it is 1/4 of the surface rather then 1/4 of the population...either way it is going to be very bad, however the first way it would not be as bad.

Samuel...later on the killing of 1/3 of Man is in the scriptures...This is very bad. 2/3 of all the Jews (that are not Messianic) will die..Roughly 1/3 of the population died in under Hitler (6+million).

Rem most all those that come to believe in Christ either byway of Knowledge immediately after the rapture (probably you) or the ones that the 144,000 convert or the ones that are converted by the two witnesses will have to DIE to get to heaven.

Each has its own name....... There are only two that are considered by the Bible 'Redeemed'. Those are before the Cross and those that are after the Cross. These are the 24 elders on the 24 thrones. They represent the Church and Israel .

Explanation: (Those that before the Cross were saved under the OT Laws and represent Israel. Those that are After the Cross, are Christians (His Church) after the crucifixion)

*******

The first group to die are the Martyred Saints that happen in the Gap between the Rapture and the beginning of Daniels 7oth week. These are killed during the campaigns of the antichrist (rising to power) and the other Seals 1-5.

The next set "Fellowservants' , Rev 6:11.. These are the Saints that are Martyred having been converted by the 144,000. (These Saints come from FIRST part of the Daniel's 70th week (3 1/2 years))

The next set are the 'Brethern of the FellowServants', Rev 6:11. These are the Saints that are Martyred having been converted during the Great Tribulations or the last 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week.

Of course there are those people of all nations, tribes and tongues, etc. that Live through Daniel's 70th week (without having taken the mark of the Beast). These are the people who will populated the 1000 years of Jesus Christ reign.

(These people may or may not be believers in Jesus Christ. However, in the Millennium, each one of them will have 100 years to believe. If they do, they will be accepted and live for the rest of the 1000 years and eternity. If the do not believe, they will DIE and then be resurrect (during the second resurrection) of the Great White Throne Judgement).

 

[Yahshua]

Hey all, it's been a while since I've been here...been dealing with a few things. But considering the events coming down the pike I wanted to share my understanding to add to the discussion...but I don't want to start of with Revelation but rather Daniel, since it was Daniel that was first given detailed visions of the end times (who was then told to shut up and seal the book until the time of the end).

In other words, if we consider a tree as an analogy of the end time visions, the book of Revelation would be the "branches" and "blooming flowers" (i.e. specific "unlocked" details) of Daniel's vision, while Daniel's vision is the "root" and "trunk" (i.e. blueprint). So Revelation expounds on what was originally given to Daniel.


[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]Events of Daniel 7:1-14[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Winds stir up the sea...[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1st Beast appears (lion-like)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2nd Beast appears (bear-like)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3rd Beast appears (leopard-like)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4th Beast appears ("dreadful-looking"); has 10 horns on head[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4th Beast ate the other beasts and stepped on whatever wasn't eaten[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]An 11th horn grows up from the 10; has a face like a man; removed 3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11th horn speaks pompous words...[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The "Ancient of Days" sits in judgment; destroys horn & 4th beast with fire[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The remaining beasts were still allowed to exist, but without old power[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]One who "looks like a son of man" ascends to the throne and is given everlasting dominion over all on the earth by the "Ancient of Days"[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Now we know that everything here is symbolic (since it's a vision), so there's a danger in misinterpreting what certain things mean. Thankfully, Daniel asks for understanding, which the angel gives him more than once. First he summarizes...


[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]Events of Daniel 7:17-18 (angel's summary)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Winds stir up the sea...[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1st King appears (lion-like)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2nd King appears (bear-like)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3rd King appears (leopard-like)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4th King appears ("dreadful-looking"); has 10 horns on head[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4th King ate the other kings and stepped on whatever wasn't eaten[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]An 11th horn grows up from the 10; has a face like a man; removed 3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11th horn speaks pompous words...[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The "Ancient of Days" sits in judgment; destroys horn & 4th King with fire[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The remaining Kings were still allowed to exist, but without old power[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Saints of Most High ascend to the throne and take everlasting dominion over all on the earth by the "Ancient of Days"[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


So letting the angel interpret the vision, the "one who looks like a son of man" IS the saints of the Most High, not Christ. Because of what we know about Christ and his use of the phrase "son of man" during his ministry, it's easy to assume the vision is describing a prophecy of him...but as the Angel explains to Daniel, it's the saints described as ascending to heaven and receiving authority over the nations of the earth. This distinction becomes important below...

Daniel then asks for more detail about the 4th beast, describing what he sees the 4th beast (and the 11th horn) doing...


[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]Events of Daniel 7:19-22 (Daniel's details)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Winds stir up the sea...[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1st King appears (lion-like)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2nd King appears (bear-like)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3rd King appears (leopard-like)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4th King appears ("dreadful-looking"); has 10 horns on head[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4th King ate the other kings and stepped on whatever wasn't eaten[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]An 11th horn grows up from the 10; has a face like a man; removed 3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11th horn speaks pompous words and warred with the saints and *won* against them[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The "Ancient of Days" came in judgment; destroys horn & 4th King with fire[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The remaining Kings were still allowed to exist, but without old power[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Saints of Most High ascend to the throne and possessed the everlasting kingdom over all on the earth by the "Ancient of Days"[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Here we learn that the 4th beast wars with the saints and wins against them BEFORE they ascend to heaven to receive their authority over the nations of the earth. Then the "Ancient of Days" comes to get them while judging the 4th beast in fire.

The angel then interprets what Daniel is seeing...


[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]Events of Daniel 7:23-27 (Angel's Interpretation)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Winds stir up the sea...[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1st Kingdom appears (lion-like)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2nd Kingdom appears (bear-like)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3rd Kingdom appears (leopard-like)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4th Kingdom appears ("dreadful-looking"); has 10 Kings that arise from it[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4th Kingdom eats the whole earth and steps on whatever wasn't eaten[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]An 11th King arises different from the 10; has a face like a man; removes 3 kings[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11th King speaks pompous words against God, wars with the saints and *wins* against them for 3 & 1/2 "times", and tries to changes times & laws[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The "Ancient of Days" came in judgment; destroys horn & 4th King with fire[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The remaining Kings were still allowed to exist, but [saints] will take away their dominion[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]People of the saints of Most High will be given the dominion & greatness and kingdom over all on the earth by the "Ancient of Days"[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Summary of Daniel 7:

1. The angel explains that these are earthly kingdoms...
2. That the 4th kingdom conquers the whole world...
3. From that kingdom, 10 mini kingdoms are created...
4. And then another mini kingdom (different from the others) rises up...
5. This different kingdom blasphemes God and persecutes the people of God...
6. This different kingdom attempts to change times and laws...
7. The people of God suffer through this for 3 & 1/2 "times"...
8. The Ancient of Days comes and judges/destroys this kingdom with fire...
9. The people of God are given authority over the nations.

This is the blueprint; the root from which to build the "tree" using the book of Revelation. I believe since this vision was first given to Daniel we can't change the order of events. So the book of Revelation - no matter the order it was written in - must fit the order provided in Daniel 7; an order confirmed four times in the same chapter.


My Conclusions (working backwards from events in Revelation, using Daniel's events as markers)...

a) The people of God given authority over the nations are those who reign over the nations 1000 years with Christ. The nations still exist on the earth but without their previous authority just like Daniel's vision describes.

b) This means Christ has to be the "Ancient of Days" that comes because Revelation 19 says it's he who comes down, defeats and casts the beast & false prophet into the lake fire, which matches the judgment in Daniel. This means the "one like a son of man" isn't Christ but the people of God; the overcomers.

c) So the beast & false prophet of Revelation 13 must be the 4th beast and little (blasphemous) horn from Daniel's vision. This means "the anti-christ" isn't so much a man but the last beast kingdom controlled by Satan; The seed of satan (or "body of satan" if you will, just like the saints of God are the "body of Christ").

d) The people of God (called the saints) suffer through persecution from the Beast like Daniel 7 says. This means they are the ones who go through (great) tribulation described in Revelation 7. So "tribulation" can't be God's wrath. God's wrath is his judgment against the beast kingdom of the world (and those who are part of it), while "tribulation" is the beast kingdom's persecution of God's saints (which is what incurs God's wrath in the first place).

Thus, the saints may very well be raptured away from God's wrath (or somehow protected from it), but they are not raptured away from tribulation. This understanding satisfies the following passages and harmonizes seemingly contradictory passages like them:


John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


Matthew 24:21-22
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days [of great tribulation] shall be shortened.


1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


Revelation 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.


Revelation 7:3
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


e) The saints of God suffer through tribulation for 3 1/2 "times", while the last beast kingdom attempts to change times and laws during that time, ending with the beast's judgment and the saint's receiving their everlasting kingdom.

There is only one mention of 3 & 1/2 "times" in Daniel's Ch7 vision before the everlasting kingdom is given to the saints, so this means each mention of 3 & 1/2 "times" (or 1260 "days" or 42 "months") - whether from additional visions in later chapters of Daniel or Revelation - must be describing the SAME moment in time; simply revealing "what else is happening" during that time from another perspective.

f) The world's time (calendar and 24hr reckoning of days) has already been changed by Pope Gregory. So if we use this historic fact as a marker, this means the beast of Revelation (i.e. the 4th beast & little horn of Daniel 7) has been here since the first century. This means the great tribulation had to have begun in the first century and isn't necessarily the last 7 years.

By God's mercy most of us weren't even born when the great tribulation started. We've avoided The Dark Ages (inquisition), "Holy" Wars, WW1 and WW2 when millions and millions of people lost their lives. If we continued on that path there wouldn't have been anyone left alive ("but for the elects sake those days [were] shortened").

So based on Daniel's blueprint we're currently at the stage just before the "Ancient of Days" (i.e. Christ) comes for his saints so they can ascend to heaven and receive their promised kingdom and then come back to pass fiery judgment on the beast.

Relating this to the Book of Revelation, this means we're currently living through:

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]The Church's perspective[/TD]
[TD]Christ's letters/instructions to overcome "right now" (Revelation 2-3)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Christ's perspective[/TD]
[TD]The last seal opened & trumpets events "right now" (Revelation 4-11)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Satan's/Beast's perspective[/TD]
[TD]Resisting the mark of the beast (kingdom) "right now" (Revelation 12-14)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]God's Wrath perspective[/TD]
[TD]The bowls/vials being poured upon the earth just before Christ comes (Revelation 15-16)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The Harlot's perspective[/TD]
[TD]The time when the false Church is being looted, and soon to be burned (Revelation 17-18)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


And if you notice while reading the book of Revelation, each of these "signs" conclude with Christ coming (or God's saints ascending to heaven to receive their kingdom) and then judgment of the beast, which ties each of these perspectives to the end of Daniel's vision...so to me that means they're the same series of events overlapped, not linear:


[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]Church's perspective[/TD]
[TD]"I will come quickly...to those that overcome I will...clothe in white...make a pillar...give a crown...sit with me on my throne...to rule with rod of iron...[or] fight against you with the sword of my mouth...spit you out (Revelation 2-3)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Christ's/Lamb's perspective[/TD]
[TD]"Come up hither...the kingdoms of the world have become the kingdom of our lord and his anointed...destroy those who destroy the earth (Rev 11:11-19)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Satan's/Beast's perspective[/TD]
[TD]"Reap for the earth is ripe...gather the cluster of grapes...cast into the wine-press of God's wrath
(Rev 14:15-20)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]God's Wrath perspective[/TD]
[TD]"Behold I come as a thief...and he gathered them at Armageddon...it is done."(Rev 16-15-17)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The Harlot Church's perspective[/TD]
[TD]"Burned with fire...Marriage supper of the lamb...beast & false prophet cast into fire...army slain with Christ's sword."(Rev 18:17-18; 19)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


This what seems to make sense to me at the moment, but there could be errors. Nothing's set in stone for me just yet. For instance, it doesn't take into consideration that there are different harvests related to the Barley and Wheat rituals. The unleavened barley bread "ascended to heaven" in smoke during the prophetic ritual while the leavened wheat bread was "simply waved" to God (since nothing impure can't ascend to heaven). This could be the difference between saints who are sealed and untouched (144,000) and saints who go through the tribulation (great multitude no man can count).

 

[abcdef]

Hey all, it's been a while since I've been here...been dealing with a few things. But considering the events coming down the pike I wanted to share my understanding to add to the discussion...but I don't want to start of with Revelation but rather Daniel, since it was Daniel that was first given detailed visions of the end times (who was then told to shut up and seal the book until the time of the end).

In other words, if we consider a tree as an analogy of the end time visions, the book of Revelation would be the "branches" and "blooming flowers" (i.e. specific "unlocked" details) of Daniel's vision, while Daniel's vision is the "root" and "trunk" (i.e. blueprint). So Revelation expounds on what was originally given to Daniel.


[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]Events of Daniel 7:1-14[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Winds stir up the sea...[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1st Beast appears (lion-like)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2nd Beast appears (bear-like)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3rd Beast appears (leopard-like)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4th Beast appears ("dreadful-looking"); has 10 horns on head[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4th Beast ate the other beasts and stepped on whatever wasn't eaten[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]An 11th horn grows up from the 10; has a face like a man; removed 3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11th horn speaks pompous words...[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The "Ancient of Days" sits in judgment; destroys horn & 4th beast with fire[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The remaining beasts were still allowed to exist, but without old power[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]One who "looks like a son of man" ascends to the throne and is given everlasting dominion over all on the earth by the "Ancient of Days"[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Now we know that everything here is symbolic (since it's a vision), so there's a danger in misinterpreting what certain things mean. Thankfully, Daniel asks for understanding, which the angel gives him more than once. First he summarizes...


[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]Events of Daniel 7:17-18 (angel's summary)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Winds stir up the sea...[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1st King appears (lion-like)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2nd King appears (bear-like)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3rd King appears (leopard-like)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4th King appears ("dreadful-looking"); has 10 horns on head[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4th King ate the other kings and stepped on whatever wasn't eaten[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]An 11th horn grows up from the 10; has a face like a man; removed 3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11th horn speaks pompous words...[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The "Ancient of Days" sits in judgment; destroys horn & 4th King with fire[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The remaining Kings were still allowed to exist, but without old power[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Saints of Most High ascend to the throne and take everlasting dominion over all on the earth by the "Ancient of Days"[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


So letting the angel interpret the vision, the "one who looks like a son of man" IS the saints of the Most High, not Christ. Because of what we know about Christ and his use of the phrase "son of man" during his ministry, it's easy to assume the vision is describing a prophecy of him...but as the Angel explains to Daniel, it's the saints described as ascending to heaven and receiving authority over the nations of the earth. This distinction becomes important below...

Daniel then asks for more detail about the 4th beast, describing what he sees the 4th beast (and the 11th horn) doing...


[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]Events of Daniel 7:19-22 (Daniel's details)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Winds stir up the sea...[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1st King appears (lion-like)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2nd King appears (bear-like)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3rd King appears (leopard-like)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4th King appears ("dreadful-looking"); has 10 horns on head[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4th King ate the other kings and stepped on whatever wasn't eaten[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]An 11th horn grows up from the 10; has a face like a man; removed 3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11th horn speaks pompous words and warred with the saints and *won* against them[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The "Ancient of Days" came in judgment; destroys horn & 4th King with fire[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The remaining Kings were still allowed to exist, but without old power[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Saints of Most High ascend to the throne and possessed the everlasting kingdom over all on the earth by the "Ancient of Days"[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Here we learn that the 4th beast wars with the saints and wins against them BEFORE they ascend to heaven to receive their authority over the nations of the earth. Then the "Ancient of Days" comes to get them while judging the 4th beast in fire.

The angel then interprets what Daniel is seeing...


[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]Events of Daniel 7:23-27 (Angel's Interpretation)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Winds stir up the sea...[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1st Kingdom appears (lion-like)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2nd Kingdom appears (bear-like)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3rd Kingdom appears (leopard-like)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4th Kingdom appears ("dreadful-looking"); has 10 Kings that arise from it[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4th Kingdom eats the whole earth and steps on whatever wasn't eaten[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]An 11th King arises different from the 10; has a face like a man; removes 3 kings[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11th King speaks pompous words against God, wars with the saints and *wins* against them for 3 & 1/2 "times", and tries to changes times & laws[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The "Ancient of Days" came in judgment; destroys horn & 4th King with fire[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The remaining Kings were still allowed to exist, but [saints] will take away their dominion[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]People of the saints of Most High will be given the dominion & greatness and kingdom over all on the earth by the "Ancient of Days"[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Summary of Daniel 7:

1. The angel explains that these are earthly kingdoms...
2. That the 4th kingdom conquers the whole world...
3. From that kingdom, 10 mini kingdoms are created...
4. And then another mini kingdom (different from the others) rises up...
5. This different kingdom blasphemes God and persecutes the people of God...
6. This different kingdom attempts to change times and laws...
7. The people of God suffer through this for 3 & 1/2 "times"...
8. The Ancient of Days comes and judges/destroys this kingdom with fire...
9. The people of God are given authority over the nations.

This is the blueprint; the root from which to build the "tree" using the book of Revelation. I believe since this vision was first given to Daniel we can't change the order of events. So the book of Revelation - no matter the order it was written in - must fit the order provided in Daniel 7; an order confirmed four times in the same chapter.


My Conclusions (working backwards from events in Revelation, using Daniel's events as markers)...

a) The people of God given authority over the nations are those who reign over the nations 1000 years with Christ. The nations still exist on the earth but without their previous authority just like Daniel's vision describes.

b) This means Christ has to be the "Ancient of Days" that comes because Revelation 19 says it's he who comes down, defeats and casts the beast & false prophet into the lake fire, which matches the judgment in Daniel. This means the "one like a son of man" isn't Christ but the people of God; the overcomers.

c) So the beast & false prophet of Revelation 13 must be the 4th beast and little (blasphemous) horn from Daniel's vision. This means "the anti-christ" isn't so much a man but the last beast kingdom controlled by Satan; The seed of satan (or "body of satan" if you will, just like the saints of God are the "body of Christ").

d) The people of God (called the saints) suffer through persecution from the Beast like Daniel 7 says. This means they are the ones who go through (great) tribulation described in Revelation 7. So "tribulation" can't be God's wrath. God's wrath is his judgment against the beast kingdom of the world (and those who are part of it), while "tribulation" is the beast kingdom's persecution of God's saints (which is what incurs God's wrath in the first place).

Thus, the saints may very well be raptured away from God's wrath (or somehow protected from it), but they are not raptured away from tribulation. This understanding satisfies the following passages and harmonizes seemingly contradictory passages like them:


John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


Matthew 24:21-22
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days [of great tribulation] shall be shortened.


1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


Revelation 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.


Revelation 7:3
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


e) The saints of God suffer through tribulation for 3 1/2 "times", while the last beast kingdom attempts to change times and laws during that time, ending with the beast's judgment and the saint's receiving their everlasting kingdom.

There is only one mention of 3 & 1/2 "times" in Daniel's Ch7 vision before the everlasting kingdom is given to the saints, so this means each mention of 3 & 1/2 "times" (or 1260 "days" or 42 "months") - whether from additional visions in later chapters of Daniel or Revelation - must be describing the SAME moment in time; simply revealing "what else is happening" during that time from another perspective.

f) The world's time (calendar and 24hr reckoning of days) has already been changed by Pope Gregory. So if we use this historic fact as a marker, this means the beast of Revelation (i.e. the 4th beast & little horn of Daniel 7) has been here since the first century. This means the great tribulation had to have begun in the first century and isn't necessarily the last 7 years.

By God's mercy most of us weren't even born when the great tribulation started. We've avoided The Dark Ages (inquisition), "Holy" Wars, WW1 and WW2 when millions and millions of people lost their lives. If we continued on that path there wouldn't have been anyone left alive ("but for the elects sake those days [were] shortened").

So based on Daniel's blueprint we're currently at the stage just before the "Ancient of Days" (i.e. Christ) comes for his saints so they can ascend to heaven and receive their promised kingdom and then come back to pass fiery judgment on the beast.

Relating this to the Book of Revelation, this means we're currently living through:

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]The Church's perspective[/TD]
[TD]Christ's letters/instructions to overcome "right now" (Revelation 2-3)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Christ's perspective[/TD]
[TD]The last seal opened & trumpets events "right now" (Revelation 4-11)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Satan's/Beast's perspective[/TD]
[TD]Resisting the mark of the beast (kingdom) "right now" (Revelation 12-14)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]God's Wrath perspective[/TD]
[TD]The bowls/vials being poured upon the earth just before Christ comes (Revelation 15-16)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The Harlot's perspective[/TD]
[TD]The time when the false Church is being looted, and soon to be burned (Revelation 17-18)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


And if you notice while reading the book of Revelation, each of these "signs" conclude with Christ coming (or God's saints ascending to heaven to receive their kingdom) and then judgment of the beast, which ties each of these perspectives to the end of Daniel's vision...so to me that means they're the same series of events overlapped, not linear:


[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]Church's perspective[/TD]
[TD]"I will come quickly...to those that overcome I will...clothe in white...make a pillar...give a crown...sit with me on my throne...to rule with rod of iron...[or] fight against you with the sword of my mouth...spit you out (Revelation 2-3)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Christ's/Lamb's perspective[/TD]
[TD]"Come up hither...the kingdoms of the world have become the kingdom of our lord and his anointed...destroy those who destroy the earth (Rev 11:11-19)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Satan's/Beast's perspective[/TD]
[TD]"Reap for the earth is ripe...gather the cluster of grapes...cast into the wine-press of God's wrath
(Rev 14:15-20)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]God's Wrath perspective[/TD]
[TD]"Behold I come as a thief...and he gathered them at Armageddon...it is done."(Rev 16-15-17)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The Harlot Church's perspective[/TD]
[TD]"Burned with fire...Marriage supper of the lamb...beast & false prophet cast into fire...army slain with Christ's sword."(Rev 18:17-18; 19)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


This what seems to make sense to me at the moment, but there could be errors. Nothing's set in stone for me just yet. For instance, it doesn't take into consideration that there are different harvests related to the Barley and Wheat rituals. The unleavened barley bread "ascended to heaven" in smoke during the prophetic ritual while the leavened wheat bread was "simply waved" to God (since nothing impure can't ascend to heaven). This could be the difference between saints who are sealed and untouched (144,000) and saints who go through the tribulation (great multitude no man can count).

Nice post,

The 4th beast is Rome, Yes?

 

[Yahshua]

Nice post,

The 4th beast is Rome, Yes?

Thanks! Yes I think the 4th beast is what started off as Rome...but has since gobbled up the whole world.

 

[abcdef]

Thanks! Yes I think the 4th beast is what started off as Rome...but has since gobbled up the whole world.

The 4th beast is also the iron legs, feet, etc., of the statue in Dan. 2, Yes?

The iron lasts until the stone strikes.

What event do you see as being represented by the stone striking the statue?

 

[Yahshua]

The 4th beast is also the iron legs, feet, etc., of the statue in Dan. 2, Yes?

Yes I agree..

The iron lasts until the stone strikes.

What event do you see as being represented by the stone striking the statue?

If I compare the stone striking event to Daniel 7 then it's the judgment of the 4th beast's 10 mini kingdoms with fire, and then the saints of God rule with the saints. The iron legs extend down to the toes where it's no longer all iron, but iron mixed with clay.

The stone descends from heaven, strikes and destroys the 10 toes (10 mixed mini kingdoms) and then grows into a great mountain. From Revelation I guess it would be the events including the burning of the beast & false prophet, the slaying of their army, and then the 1000 year reign of the saints with Christ, ruling over the people who remain of those nations.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The 4th beast is also the iron legs, feet, etc., of the statue in Dan. 2, Yes?

The iron lasts until the stone strikes.

What event do you see as being represented by the stone striking the statue?

Hello abcdef and Yashua,

The 4th beast, the legs of iron, was Rome. The feet with the ten toes made of partly iron and partly baked clay, is an extension of the 4th beast which is yet future. Those ten toes are synonymous with the ten horns on the beast, which are those ten kings who will give their power and authority to the beast, the antichrist.

What event do you see as being represented by the stone striking the statue?

The rock striking the feet of the statue and smashing it to pieces, represents the dismantling of all human government, as the pieces will be like chaff on a threshing floor, blown away by the wind, without leaving a trace. This smashing will be accomplished via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is how God is gong to carry out his wrath upon the earth leading up to Christ's return to end the age.

 

[abcdef]

Yes I agree..



If I compare the stone striking event to Daniel 7 then it's the judgment of the 4th beast's 10 mini kingdoms with fire, and then the saints of God rule with the saints. The iron legs extend down to the toes where it's no longer all iron, but iron mixed with clay.

The stone descends from heaven, strikes and destroys the 10 toes (10 mixed mini kingdoms) and then grows into a great mountain. From Revelation I guess it would be the events including the burning of the beast & false prophet, the slaying of their army, and then the 1000 year reign of the saints with Christ, ruling over the people who remain of those nations.

Here is how I see it.

The statue represents the nations that rule over Israel until they are restored to Jerusalem. Babylon, etc.

The legs of iron are the Roman Empire.

The iron begins when Rome invades Israel.

The legs divide when Rome splits into East and West, 234 ad approx.

When Rome falls in 476 ad, is when the period of the 10 toes begins, 10 being symbolic of complete division.

We are at the end of the statue just before the stone strikes.

==

If the iron is Rome, doesn't the iron last until the stone strikes?

There is clay with the toes, but the iron is still one piece, legs, feet, toes, one piece, one nation.

The iron nation is the same through time, Rome.

Where is this iron today?