Romans 13 and submitting to a corrupt government

[JohnB]

I found this article about Romans 13.

Romans 13 and Christian Submission to Civil Authority, by Michael Morrison

https://learn.gcs.edu/mod/page/view...n 13:5, Paul summarizes,be of concern in Rome.

I've always found it hard when Paul said we are to submit to the government. Hard to do when the whole government is corrupt and yet GOD did put it in place.

 

[Artios1]

I found this article about Romans 13.

Romans 13 and Christian Submission to Civil Authority, by Michael Morrison

https://learn.gcs.edu/mod/page/view.php?id=4267#:~:text=In 13:5, Paul summarizes,be of concern in Rome.

I've always found it hard when Paul said we are to submit to the government. Hard to do when the whole government is corrupt and yet GOD did put it in place.

We must always keep in mind….. Paul wrote what was given him by revelation of/from Jesus Christ…. So, these are not Paul’s renderings..... but rather what was given to him.
With that in mind ….the following may alleviate your concerns regarding these scripture.

Most everyone reads Rom _13:1-7 as “governmental authorities”. Probably in part because of the way the JKV had it translated and how we associate certain words with other scripture [pay tribute….etc] and then we read with that mindset… which I used to do also until I took a closer look at it.

That suggestion of government authorities would not stand in the context since not all government authorities are of God, nor do they execute His will as suggested in verses 2 through 5. The context referred to here is excelling authorities (leadership with gift ministries) commissioned by God for the purpose of administering his service and justice to the church (called of God)

The following is a more literal translation of verses 1-7

1.) Let every soul be in subjection to the excelling authorities. In fact there is no real authority except from God, and those that exist have been appointed by God (to the church)

2.) Therefore those who oppose that authority, resist the disposition of God, and those who resist it will receive judgment against themselves.

3.) Moreover, these leaders are not a source of fear to the good work but to the evil work. Do you want to not be afraid of the authority? Then do that which is good and you will have praise from the same.

4.) Certainly a minister of God is for your good. However, if you do that which is evil, then be afraid, for he does not wear the sword without reason. Certainly a minister of God is an avenger for wrath to him who practices that which is evil.

5.) Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection not only because of the rath but also because of the conscience.

6.)For this reason, pay tribute [respect, honor] also, for they are servants of God giving persistent attention to this same thing.

7.) Render to all what is owed to them: the tribute [respect, honor] to whom the tribute [respect, honor] is owed; the fear [reverence] to whom fear [reverence] is owed; the honor to whom honor is owed.

 

[montana123]

I found this article about Romans 13.

Romans 13 and Christian Submission to Civil Authority, by Michael Morrison

https://learn.gcs.edu/mod/page/view.php?id=4267#:~:text=In 13:5, Paul summarizes,be of concern in Rome.

I've always found it hard when Paul said we are to submit to the government. Hard to do when the whole government is corrupt and yet GOD did put it in place.

God said no power can rule unless He allows it, so if you are going against a government then He said you are going against Him, for who are you to go against what He allows.

We are to obey the government unless they want us to comply to something that is against the goodness, and ways of God then we are not to obey them but do the will of God.

We cannot go against a government by being physical with them, but we can verbally point out what they are doing wrong not in accordance with God's ways, which Paul did that, but he did not bring a group together to try to physically overthrow the government.

Jud 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

The evil people despise authority wanting to exalt themselves, which is what they did at the 1960's counter culture movement which was rebellion against authority, parents, government, police, and the such.

Which the movement was terrible because it was immoral, selfish with do your own thing, and also violated the scripture that children honoring, and obeying their parents, is the first commandment with promise, for if they humble themselves before their parents they will more likely humble themselves before God, and society, not wanting to exalt themselves.

And we see from the 1960's onward that the age of children being defiant against parents got lower and lower.

 

[FollowingtheWay]

Context of Roman’s 13 helps.

 

[FollowingtheWay]

Context of Roman’s 13 helps.

View attachment 255739

 

[FollowingtheWay]

View attachment 255741

 

[Seeker47]

We were warned….1 Samuel 8:

10 Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights:

He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your male and female servants and the best of your cattle[c] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.”

 

[seekingthemindofChrist]

Dear Lord, help us to use our God-given brains.

Here is the text:

Romans 13:1-7

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour."

The types of "higher powers", or "rulers", or "ministers of God" that Paul was talking about are:

1. Those who are not a terror to good works, but to the evil.
2. Those who praise those who do good works.
3. Those who revenge or execute wrath upon those who do evil.

Got it?

This portion of scripture in no way, shape, or form was intended to even suggest that Christians ought to obey evil rulers.

Did this same Paul, who wrote the epistle to the Romans, "subject himself unto the higher powers" here?

2 Corinthians 11:30-33

"If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities. The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not. In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me: And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands."

Of course, he did not.

And what about this accusation against Paul which led to him being beaten and imprisoned?

Acts 16:19-22

"And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers, and brought them to the magistrates, saying, These men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city, and teach customs, which are not lawful for us to receive, neither to observe, being Romans. And the multitude rose up together against them: and the magistrates rent off their clothes, and commanded to beat them."

Paul's entire ministry was against Roman law in that he was proclaiming another King, Jesus, and that was an act of treason. In fact, that act of treason is part of what led to Christ's own crucifixion at the hands of the Roman procurator, Pontius Pilate.

John 19:12-13

"And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar. When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha."

Let's use our God-given brains, okay?

 

[JohnB]

We must always keep in mind….. Paul wrote what was given him by revelation of/from Jesus Christ…. So, these are not Paul’s renderings..... but rather what was given to him.
With that in mind ….the following may alleviate your concerns regarding these scripture.

Most everyone reads Rom _13:1-7 as “governmental authorities”. Probably in part because of the way the JKV had it translated and how we associate certain words with other scripture [pay tribute….etc] and then we read with that mindset… which I used to do also until I took a closer look at it.

That suggestion of government authorities would not stand in the context since not all government authorities are of God, nor do they execute His will as suggested in verses 2 through 5. The context referred to here is excelling authorities (leadership with gift ministries) commissioned by God for the purpose of administering his service and justice to the church (called of God)

The following is a more literal translation of verses 1-7

1.) Let every soul be in subjection to the excelling authorities. In fact there is no real authority except from God, and those that exist have been appointed by God (to the church)

2.) Therefore those who oppose that authority, resist the disposition of God, and those who resist it will receive judgment against themselves.

3.) Moreover, these leaders are not a source of fear to the good work but to the evil work. Do you want to not be afraid of the authority? Then do that which is good and you will have praise from the same.

4.) Certainly a minister of God is for your good. However, if you do that which is evil, then be afraid, for he does not wear the sword without reason. Certainly a minister of God is an avenger for wrath to him who practices that which is evil.

5.) Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection not only because of the rath but also because of the conscience.

6.)For this reason, pay tribute [respect, honor] also, for they are servants of God giving persistent attention to this same thing.

7.) Render to all what is owed to them: the tribute [respect, honor] to whom the tribute [respect, honor] is owed; the fear [reverence] to whom fear [reverence] is owed; the honor to whom honor is owed.

It's when a nation is blessed by GOD (like America) with prosperity and that government keeps those blessings for a few, while the rest struggle to get by, how do you answer that?

 

[NightTwister]

When this was written, the government in Rome actively sought out Christians to kill. Some were made into torches. There's likely never been a more evil and corrupt government, yet Paul said we are to submit to their authority. The only exception would be the government demanding that we do something sinful. Yes, God appointed each existing ruler to be there. Sometimes we get the ruler we want. Sometimes, we get the ruler we deserve.

 

[Aaron56]

Much of the church fails to recognize the ruling authorities within the Body of Christ: they won’t be ruled over by anybody and will decide for themselves what to do by their own understanding. Therefore, they believe this verse has to do with earthly governments.

(I blame the Roman church for perverting this order to the point where it should be rejected and the Protestant church for throwing the baby out with the bath water, so to speak.)

Yet in the New Testament we have record of councils of church rulers creating decrees for all believers, apostles directing the giving of provisions, saints telling others to “imitate what I do”, sending believers to areas and commanding others to receive the traveling saint, etc. This is because the church is part of a kingdom or order, rule, and authority. Not everyone is given the same measure of authority. We are to obey those who are over us in the Lord, for they watch over our souls and must give an account to God for their work.

 

[seekingthemindofChrist]

Sometimes we get the ruler we want. Sometimes, we get the ruler we deserve.

...and, sometimes, you can purchase a six-pack of rulers for only $2.98 on TEMU:

https://www.temu.com/ul/kuiper/un9....MIpvii_d-dgQMV-EdHAR3RqApnEAQYAiABEgJi-fD_BwE

On a more serious note, did the Hebrew midwives "submit" to the king of Egypt's or Pharaoh's command in relation to killing all Hebrew males?

Exodus 1:15-22

"And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah: And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live. But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive. And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive? And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them. Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty. And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses. And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive."

No, they did not because they feared God more than they feared the possible wrath of Pharaoh.

What was God's response?

Did he condemn the midwives for their act of civil disobedience?

No, he did not.

Instead, he dealt well with them, and made them houses.

And what about Moses' parents?

Exodus 2:1-2

"And there went a man of the house of Levi, and took to wife a daughter of Levi. And the woman conceived, and bare a son: and when she saw him that he was a goodly child, she hid him three months."

Here is what the New Testament has to say about this act of civil disobedience:

Hebrews 11:23

"By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment."

Wait, what?

"They were not afraid of the king's commandment?"

I thought (not really...I am being sarcastic) that we were supposed to be afraid of violating the ordinances of governing powers because they are God's ministers who execute wrath upon the disobedient.

Again, Paul was talking about good rulers in Romans chapter 13, and not about wicked rulers like Pharaoh whom God himself greatly opposed, judged, and ultimately killed.

How about the Magi?

Matthew 2:7-8

"Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also."

Did the Magi obey what Herod told them to do?

Matthew 2:12

"And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way."

No, they did not, and God himself told them to disobey what Herod had instructed them to do.

I could go on and on.

Again, let's use our God-given brains.

 

[FollowingtheWay]

When this was written, the government in Rome actively sought out Christians to kill. Some were made into torches. There's likely never been a more evil and corrupt government, yet Paul said we are to submit to their authority. The only exception would be the government demanding that we do something sinful. Yes, God appointed each existing ruler to be there. Sometimes we get the ruler we want. Sometimes, we get the ruler we deserve.

That was their government, Roman Government was built to be brutal and tyrannical from its inception. It did not (derive its just powers from consent of the governed) as American government does. application of this is different for an American Christian versus a North Korean Christian “we the people” Per the US Constitution are the rulers (representative self rule) . If the representatives we elect aren’t representative of our will we can take action and push for change weather petition, ballot box , or protest. Especially if the government is passing legislation that encourages sin (like it is currently) and restricts Christians from practicing faith. In USA we the citizens are the government and non compliance to unjust rule becomes obedience to God.

 

[Seeker47]

When this was written, the government in Rome actively sought out Christians to kill. Some were made into torches. There's likely never been a more evil and corrupt government, yet Paul said we are to submit to their authority. The only exception would be the government demanding that we do something sinful. Yes, God appointed each existing ruler to be there. Sometimes we get the ruler we want. Sometimes, we get the ruler we deserve.

I do not deny Rome was evil, but Rome did not kill millions of it's citizens for the benefit and profit of a few. Who is really evil?

 

[Webers.Home]

.
Difficult days are ahead for Americans, and in fact are now here, as powerful
heads of government begin utilizing law enforcing agencies more and more
for political purposes.
_

 

[FollowingtheWay]

.
Difficult days are ahead for Americans, and in fact are now here, as powerful
heads of government begin utilizing law enforcing agencies more and more
for political purposes.
_

What’s fun is when Law enforcement refuses to enforce said political laws as it violates their oath of office . Illinois Sheriffs are a big one doing this right now. Refusal by dozens of County Sheriffs to enforce unjust and unconstitutional decrees made by the State.

 

[Webers.Home]

.
● Rom 13:7 . . Give everyone what you owe him . . if respect, then respect;
if honor, then honor.

Christians don't have to particularly like the folks in government, but we do
have to allow them the dignity that their positions deserve in compliance
with Rom 13:1-5.

For example: tearing up a US President's state of the union address, banning
him from social media platforms, censoring his comments, falsely accusing
him of colluding with the Russians, revising laws with which to prosecute him
ex post facto, and/or impeaching him contrary to Constitutional law, is not
the Christian way; so don't let Christ catch you participating in those kinds of
impious behaviors.

NOTE: It was just one lone Jew's refusal to give a federal official the respect
their position deserved that almost caused the total annihilation of Moses'
people in the book of Esther. Her uncle Mordecai is often portrayed as a
hero, but in reality he's an extremely poor role model for Christians to
follow.
_

 

[posthuman]

I found this article about Romans 13.

Romans 13 and Christian Submission to Civil Authority, by Michael Morrison

https://learn.gcs.edu/mod/page/view.php?id=4267#:~:text=In 13:5, Paul summarizes,be of concern in Rome.

I've always found it hard when Paul said we are to submit to the government. Hard to do when the whole government is corrupt and yet GOD did put it in place.

Paul, speaking by the Holy Spirit, wrote Romans 13 while Nero was caeser.

we do not have any justification whatsoever as Christians to reject the authority of our earthly governments on the grounds that we consider it corrupt.

 

[posthuman]

Sometimes we get the ruler we want. Sometimes, we get the ruler we deserve.

always we get the secular government we deserve.
sometimes we want it and sometimes we don't.

 

[Cameron143]

Paul, speaking by the Holy Spirit, wrote Romans 13 while Nero was caeser.

we do not have any justification whatsoever as Christians to reject the authority of our earthly governments on the grounds that we consider it corrupt.

Sure we do. The people in the US have a constitutional duty to throw off such a government. The rights of the people are guaranteed in the constitution, not the government.