Romans 9:21

[Cameron143]

That is part of the problem. GOD asks you to do something, you do it, but than your situation get worse.

This is where the teaching in the book of Habakkuk is invaluable. It is possible to live well before the Lord in a life of joy and Thanksgiving in even the most trying of times.

 

[Evmur]

Jesus could have Peter pull a gold coin from a fish to pay taxes, he could turn water into wine. Jesus wasn't struggling to make ends meet. He didn't even have to work.

We have the same faith available to us.

 

[CorrectiveLens]

"Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?" Romans 9:21. While I was handing out a coke and chips to a homeless man, I got to thinking. I've always wanted a nice house, new car and financial independent. I don't need to be rich, but would like more than enough to get by. I want to retire. I started thinking, if I had these things would I be out handing drinks and food to the homeless on the corners? I wonder if I'm not in the place I desire to be because GOD wanted me doing this?

If you had those things, you would still be handing out food and drinks to the homeless because you are still you. Are you saying that your worldly success would afford you such a comfort that you might not be able to empathize with a homeless man? How many of us would be able to sell all we have, except bare necessities, and give to the poor. The heart of man is not inclined to do what is righteous except when it is changed by the Holy Spirit who fills it with the divine love necessary to have every thought and action motivated by such love. It is then that we walk in the Spirit and are born again with a new heart. This can happen to anyone and is not dependant on status, age, upbringing, wealth, etc. More importantly, our priority should be to spread truth despite all the negative feedback and treat everyone with love and compassion.

 

[JohnB]

From your perspective this seems true but not from theirs. Our perceptions of others lives is seldom accurate. And even when it is, it doesn't reflect the desires and struggles in their lives. We all need to come to the same place--where we desire God above all things and as others have said are content with God's choices and even rejoicing in them entrusting ourselves to Him.
I was helped immensely by Matthew 11:6 which one preacher referred to as the 11th beatitude...

And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me...

John the Baptist has sent a couple disciples to enquire of Jesus if He is indeed the Messiah. Things were not going as John had expected. But Jesus assures him things are proceeding exactly as they should and as were foretold. And blessed are those who who come to understand and rejoice in this.

The shock John the Baptist must have had when he realized his head was going to be cut off. There is no hint he had any idea of what was about to happen.

 

[JohnB]

If you had those things, you would still be handing out food and drinks to the homeless because you are still you. Are you saying that your worldly success would afford you such a comfort that you might not be able to empathize with a homeless man? How many of us would be able to sell all we have, except bare necessities, and give to the poor. The heart of man is not inclined to do what is righteous except when it is changed by the Holy Spirit who fills it with the divine love necessary to have every thought and action motivated by such love. It is then that we walk in the Spirit and are born again with a new heart. This can happen to anyone and is not dependant on status, age, upbringing, wealth, etc. More importantly, our priority should be to spread truth despite all the negative feedback and treat everyone with love and compassion.

I would not be doing mystery shopping, where I am driving all around and seeing the homeless on freeway ramps. I would be home donating by internet to groups.

 

[Cameron143]

The shock John the Baptist must have had when he realized his head was going to be cut off. There is no hint he had any idea of what was about to happen.

Perhaps...or perhaps he did see it coming and never foresaw this as the eventual outcome. Either way, you are right, it probably was surprising.

 

[listenyoumustAll]

well Actually Paul is aware that Jesus Christ is the only judge and is explaining it well

“Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭4:1-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Even Paul wasn’t trying to judge himself justified and he was an apostle . he even explains why he’s telling them this

do you get what he’s saying and why ? Consider why he wrote the Corinthians letter and the issues they were having

As far as your works th idk is why they are important

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-10‬ ‭

that’s why Gods true grace teaches us this

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We need to let that happen . because we need to stop serving the evil and doing bad works and start serving Gods Will and doing the works Jesus taught us to do because we’re going to have to answer for everything we do and say and fail to repent of

“I’m already saved no matter what I do “ is why it’s hard to hear this

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬
A

We need to let God change our Will and start acting in the right ways

Or this

“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭6:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Or this

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Or this

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

or this

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭

Paul’s trying to persuade the faith of the hearer because he understands the coming judgement and it’s terrifying for the rebellious


We aren’t going to change if we reject the things that change what we believe like changing from “ I have no accountability nothing I do counts I’m already saved I don’t need to do anything saved by grace “

what the scripture says in order to convince and change the mind to repentance and right living and a willingness and zeal to go do good in his name

we need to change from this

“if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;



and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; ( that’s what scripture is for )

and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:21-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul’s trying to save people’s souls by warning them and speaking truth to those who thought otherwise he reveals amazing things but often hypergracers won’t have it e

Jesus has justified on cross and is justifying daily life today of the believer and will justify on the day of justification . Jesus said remember ,John 8:10-11 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever . Paul is saying all the glory is the Lord working through him

 

[CorrectiveLens]

I would not be doing mystery shopping, where I am driving all around and seeing the homeless on freeway ramps. I would be home donating by internet to groups.

I'm not saying that you are wrong, but donating personally to someone in need results in immediate help for them as well as knowing where your money is going. You would have a good opportunity just to let them know that God is watching and loves him and your gift is not from you but from God through you. Sounds corney, but real.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Jesus has justified on cross and is justifying daily life today of the believer and will justify on the day of justification . Jesus said remember ,John 8:10-11 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever . Paul is saying all the glory is the Lord working through him

Yeah I think I agree with you if I’m understanding you correctly

“She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a that’s a good summary of the gospel your forgiven I’m not holding your sin against you , I’ve waged it away , now your part , your instruction is go repent and stop sinning.

i agree completely that’s how Paul’s letters also are constructed

aim the first parts he’s saying “ Jesus does for your sins your forgiven and now you belong to him “

sand in the latter parts of his letters he’s saying “ now you need to go and stop living in sin and start living for Gods Will

Like this is Paul saying the latter part after he’s established “ by grace Jesus came and died for your sins so your forgiven “

Then he’s saying go and change your sinful ways whatever they are

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s really consistent in his letters he’s never saying “ what you do good or bad doesn’t matter your saved anyways “ he’s saying “ Jesus forgave l your sins by his blood and gave his life for you , now go and repent and live for him “

Here’s one more example of what I’m saying

“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; and walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.


For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬


so yes God is saying “ I’ve forgiven all your sins , now you go and repent and start living upright lives because you were bought at the highest price being jesus suffering and bloodshed

a it’s not “ your forgiven now or no longer matters what you do “ ots forgiveness with instructions of where to go from there don’t go back to sin saying God no longer has the right to condemn me if I continue sinning against him , because thats not true the stop sinning part is as important as the I don’t condemn you part

 

[listenyoumustAll]

Yeah I think I agree with you if I’m understanding you correctly

“She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a that’s a good summary of the gospel your forgiven I’m not holding your sin against you , I’ve waged it away , now your part , your instruction is go repent and stop sinning.

i agree completely that’s how Paul’s letters also are constructed

aim the first parts he’s saying “ Jesus does for your sins your forgiven and now you belong to him “

sand in the latter parts of his letters he’s saying “ now you need to go and stop living in sin and start living for Gods Will

Like this is Paul saying the latter part after he’s established “ by grace Jesus came and died for your sins so your forgiven “

Then he’s saying go and change your sinful ways whatever they are

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s really consistent in his letters he’s never saying “ what you do good or bad doesn’t matter your saved anyways “ he’s saying “ Jesus forgave l your sins by his blood and gave his life for you , now go and repent and live for him “

Here’s one more example of what I’m saying

“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; and walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.


For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬


so yes God is saying “ I’ve forgiven all your sins , now you go and repent and start living upright lives because you were bought at the highest price being jesus suffering and bloodshed

a it’s not “ your forgiven now or no longer matters what you do “ ots forgiveness with instructions of where to go from there don’t go back to sin saying God no longer has the right to condemn me if I continue sinning against him , because thats not true the stop sinning part is as important as the I don’t condemn you part

but I didn't say doing good or bad doesn't matter. I said having to do good or bad does not guarantee the kingdom of God. But in believing surely one should have works onto good fruits.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

but I didn't say doing good or bad doesn't matter. I said having to do good or bad does not guarantee the kingdom of God. But in believing surely one should have works onto good fruits.

yeah the scripture says it was my point

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬

Do you see the warning to repent and live right or else ? Why is that pet not legitimate ? Or why is this not true

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

surely the resurrection of damnation isn’t saying your saved is it ? And surely it’s simple enough for us to agree they are judged eternally by what’s they did good or bad according to the word of Jesus right ? Does Paul agree with this that our deeds will be what we’re judged by ?

“Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

surely Paul agrees that what a person does whether this group that chooses this

“Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:”

or this group

“but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile”

this group noted again

“but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:”

how do we remove what we do from the equation ? It’s throughout every book of the Bible it’s always been the same whether here

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

or here when we learn how he’s going to do that

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you know what I mean ? Why would i not be willing to just accept that my deeds matter when it comes to where I’m going to spend eternity ?

aid im a believer that’s going to press me to repent and live a better life , learn from my savior and lord and give my whole heart to him and follow the path he set before me to walk by faith ?


I think we have this issue here in the forum sometimes and I don’t mean this towards you or anyone in particular but I think we forget about milk and meat and who can eat solid food

“For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5:12-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so Maybe some people aren’t ready to hear certain things because they just aren’t there yet they still have t had a change of heart to be able to know sin is the Will of Satan trying to destroy us , and righteousness is Gods Will to save us

Babes belong to God as well but eventually a grown up can’t sit in mamas lap and drink the bottle eventually we need the meat and potatoes for growth

 

[Pilgrimshope]

but I didn't say doing good or bad doesn't matter. I said having to do good or bad does not guarantee the kingdom of God. But in believing surely one should have works onto good fruits.

maybe this will explain what i believe and where the fruits come from

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth,

some an hundredfold,

some sixty,

some thirty.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:19-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

At here isn’t a checklist or anything is certain works we need to do that’s not at all what I’m saying , im saying we become fruitful when we allow the gospel ( the word of the kingdom ) to change our heart and mind to believe what he’s teaching in the gospel

some will produce a lot of fruits of the spirit will do a lot of good through life , others will not produce as much , others even less but my point is hearing the word and abiding in it not rejecting it or dismissing what he’s teaching us because it’s the lord who knows all about salvation into his everlasting kingdom beyond death and sorrow

all we really need to do is hear what he’s teaching us and accept it as the truth and the word will do this

“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a that’s where the repentance and good works is going to become part of what we do the fruits I’ll come from those who abide in and believe and follow after what they are learning it’s a progressive thing requiring us to seek and learn from and believe in Jesus and his gospel of salvation

were eventually going to get to hear this type of thing which if we believe is going to compel us

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

At his os going to make us understand we need to act in faith we’re receiving from the word of Jesus Christ that’s promising us salvation as we grow we’re going to have to deal with things like that and let it compel us through faith we know a little and it’s enough but then we learn more nd this progressively changes us and our deeds and works follow