Rome's challenge.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Why spend so much time observing a debate between to false religions..
May as well cover a debate between muslims and hindus...
Simple conclusion is they are both wrong..
 
  • Heart
Reactions: GRACE_ambassador
Why spend so much time observing a debate between to false religions..
May as well cover a debate between muslims and hindus...
Simple conclusion is they are both wrong..
Please give the biblical texts that show it is wrong to keep the 10 commandments.
 
Glad I've been made free
Are you made free from sin or made free to sin?

Because sin is present today.

I'm free from sin when I repent and ask for forgiveness.

Repentance is the acknowledgement of sin and the turning away from it.

No law = no sin = no need to repent = freedom..

A law = defines sin = shows me my need for a saviour = Repentance = freedom.
 
Why spend so much time observing a debate between to false religions..
May as well cover a debate between muslims and hindus...
Simple conclusion is they are both wrong..
Why
what is Wrong with them... ?
Did you even read it.?
The challenge from the Catholic church is to all Sunday keeping Protestant churches.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Davidstarr
Why spend so much time observing a debate between to false religions..
May as well cover a debate between muslims and hindus...
Simple conclusion is they are both wrong..
Both can't be wrong..
The Bible does or does not say we should keep Sunday.

If the bible does not say anything about Sunday keeping then Romes challenge is valid.

Every true Protestant that follows the Bible (Sola Scriptura) only, should keep the seventh day Sabbath. They should Remember to keep it holy.
 
Since the Catholic Church maintains that they have the authority to create doctrine - based at least in part on Matthew 16:19 - I wonder why that don't add their current non-scrpitural doctrines to the New Testament?
 
Since the Catholic Church maintains that they have the authority to create doctrine - based at least in part on Matthew 16:19 - I wonder why that don't add their current non-scrpitural doctrines to the New Testament?
Ever hear of the Ethiopian Bible?
It aligns more with Catholicism than with scripture.
But why rewrite the whole bible anyway? Most people don't even bother to read it.
Much easier to "discover" supposed ancient manuscripts that go against what the bible teaches...

BTW Catholics already have their own bible with many discrepancies between it the REAL McCoy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TMS
Ever hear of the Ethiopian Bible?
It aligns more with Catholicism than with scripture.
But why rewrite the whole bible anyway? Most people don't even bother to read it.
Much easier to "discover" supposed ancient manuscripts that go against what the bible teaches...

BTW Catholics already have their own bible with many discrepancies between it the REAL McCoy.
What are a couple of doctrines in the Catholic New Testament that are not in the "REAL McCoy"?
 
Indulgences, Purgatory, Immortal soul after the body dies, confession booth. that the bread and wine of the Eucharist is the actual REAL flesh and blood of Jesus, praying to Mary and/or the saints.

Shall I go on?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Life4Christ and TMS
Indulgences, Purgatory, Immortal soul after the body dies, confession booth. that the bread and wine of the Eucharist is the actual REAL flesh and blood of Jesus, praying to Mary and/or the saints.

Shall I go on?
No, those should be sufficent.

So, which translation of the Catholic New Testament includes those doctrines?
 
No, those should be sufficent.

So, which translation of the Catholic New Testament includes those doctrines?
Which translations? All of them have something wrong with them.
But also Catholic practices, obeying what Papa and his priests tell you.
Not to mention the Ethiopian bible.

It would take months to go through just the Ethiopian bible comparing it to actual cannon.
 
Which translations? All of them have something wrong with them.
But also Catholic practices, obeying what Papa and his priests tell you.
Not to mention the Ethiopian bible.

It would take months to go through just the Ethiopian bible comparing it to actual cannon.
I agree ...
They have truth mixes with error.
The tactic of the devil.
Mix a little poison in and hope people don't notice.

The so called new translations are supporting catholic doctrine in places, but in such a way it decieves many.

God's truth is perfect, it does not change.. and is sure.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Isa 8:20 KJV To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

The Ethiopian bible contradicts the bible so it has no light in it.
 
Since the Catholic Church maintains that they have the authority to create doctrine - based at least in part on Matthew 16:19 - I wonder why that don't add their current non-scrpitural doctrines to the New Testament?
They don't say the bible is there only teacher.

They claim to be above the scriptures.
 
Quote.....
[From the Catholic Mirror of Sept. 2, 1893]

"Our attention has been called to the above subject in the past week by the receipt of a brochure of twenty-one pages, published by the International Religious Liberty Association, entitled, "Appeal and Remonstrance," embodying resolutions adopted the General Conference of the Seventh-day Adventists (Feb. 24, 1893). The resolutions criticize and censure, with much acerbity, the action of the United States Congress, and of the Supreme Court, for the invading the rights of the people by closing the World's Fair on Sunday.

The Adventists are the only body of Christians with the Bible as their teacher, who can find no warrant in its pages for the change of the day from the seventh to the first. Hence their appellation, "Seventh-day Adventists." Their cardinal principle consists in setting apart Saturday for the exclusive worship of God, in conformity with the positive command of God himself, repeatedly reiterated in the sacred books of the Old and New Testaments, literally obeyed by the children of Israel for thousands of years to this day, and endorsed by the teaching and practice of the Son of God whilst on earth.

Per contra, the Protestants of the world, the Adventists excepted, with the same Bible as their cherished and sole infallible teacher, by their practice, since their appearance in the sixteenth century, with the time-honored practice of the Jewish people before their eyes, have rejected the day named for His worship by God, and assumed, in apparent contradiction of His command, a day for His worship never once referred to for that purpose, in the pages of that Sacred Volume."
The New Testament does not seem to designate any particular day of the week for “worship”.
 
The New Testament does not seem to designate any particular day of the week for “worship”
The New Testament does not designate any particular day of the week for worship — and that is intentional.
Not because worship is optional.
Not because gathering is optional.
But because the New Covenant does not operate on calendar‑law.
 
  • Heart
Reactions: PaulThomson
Who made the sabbath? Well God did of course. So who alone can change it? Only God can.
Where in the bible does it say God made such a change? Nowhere
So the 7th day sabbath still stands as part of the 10 commandments.

BTW the Greek word for "man" in Mark 2:27 is "anthrōpos". It means "all of mankind". Not just the Jews.
Man was made on day 6 of creation week, the sabbath was made (for man) on day 7. Can anyone go back in time and change creation?
The Hebrew word for "man" in the creation story is "adam". It's where he gets his name. It means the 1st man by implication all of his descendants, all of mankind. The sabbath was made for Adam and the entire human race.

Another BTW the 10 commandments, given by God at Mt. Sinai, includes the word "remember" in the 4th commandment. The word means "to remind", "put in remembrance" something from the past. God was telling His people to remember the sabbath days from times past. What's the point in that first word in that commandment if the sabbath had not been observed between Adam and Moses?
The following verse nullifies the idea that Gentiles are under the law as Christians.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
 
Who made the sabbath? Well God did of course. So who alone can change it? Only God can.
Where in the bible does it say God made such a change? Nowhere
So the 7th day sabbath still stands as part of the 10 commandments.

BTW the Greek word for "man" in Mark 2:27 is "anthrōpos". It means "all of mankind". Not just the Jews.
Man was made on day 6 of creation week, the sabbath was made (for man) on day 7. Can anyone go back in time and change creation?
The Hebrew word for "man" in the creation story is "adam". It's where he gets his name. It means the 1st man by implication all of his descendants, all of mankind. The sabbath was made for Adam and the entire human race.

Another BTW the 10 commandments, given by God at Mt. Sinai, includes the word "remember" in the 4th commandment. The word means "to remind", "put in remembrance" something from the past. God was telling His people to remember the sabbath days from times past. What's the point in that first word in that commandment if the sabbath had not been observed between Adam and Moses?
Your claims are false:

The Sabbath was not given to Adam.
“Remember” does not prove pre‑Sinai observance.
Mark 2:27 does not universalize the Sabbath.
The Sabbath is the sign of the Sinai covenant.
The Sinai covenant is obsolete (Heb 8:13).
Therefore the sign is obsolete.
The New Covenant does not legislate a weekly holy day.
Paul explicitly removes Sabbath obligation.
The Sabbath was for Israel under Moses, not for the Church under Christ.
I encourage your reply.
 
Your claims are false:

The Sabbath was not given to Adam.
“Remember” does not prove pre‑Sinai observance.
Mark 2:27 does not universalize the Sabbath.
The Sabbath is the sign of the Sinai covenant.
The Sinai covenant is obsolete (Heb 8:13).
Therefore the sign is obsolete.
The New Covenant does not legislate a weekly holy day.
Paul explicitly removes Sabbath obligation.
The Sabbath was for Israel under Moses, not for the Church under Christ.
I encourage your reply.
Mark 2:27 does NOT say "The Sabbath was made for the Jews". It says "mankind". So, yes, that's all inclusive.
Adam was made on day 6. The sabbath on day 7 for "mankind".
Do you remember what you had for breakfast yesterday? This implies you DID have breakfast yesterday. Remember means "to remind", "to call into remembrance", something from the past.
"Remember the sabbath day" God said to the Hebrews at Mt. Sinai. This alone implies a pre-Sinai existence of the 7th day sabbath.
It is not the sabbath of the Jews. "The seventh is the sabbath of the Lord thy God" Exo 20:10
It is His "holy day" Isa 58:13

No, Paul actually commands observance of the 7th day sabbath in commemoration of God creating the world in 6 days and resting on the 7th day (Heb 4:1-11 esp verses 4, 10 & 11)

Heb 8:13 - You should really read the verses before it too. The new covenant is the law written in our hearts. No longer from tablets of stone or written on parchments. No need to teach others to know the Lord. All will know Him. The same 10 commandment law just written in new places.
 
Mark 2:27 does NOT say "The Sabbath was made for the Jews". It says "mankind". So, yes, that's all inclusive.
Adam was made on day 6. The sabbath on day 7 for "mankind".
Do you remember what you had for breakfast yesterday? This implies you DID have breakfast yesterday. Remember means "to remind", "to call into remembrance", something from the past.
"Remember the sabbath day" God said to the Hebrews at Mt. Sinai. This alone implies a pre-Sinai existence of the 7th day sabbath.
It is not the sabbath of the Jews. "The seventh is the sabbath of the Lord thy God" Exo 20:10
It is His "holy day" Isa 58:13

No, Paul actually commands observance of the 7th day sabbath in commemoration of God creating the world in 6 days and resting on the 7th day (Heb 4:1-11 esp verses 4, 10 & 11)

Heb 8:13 - You should really read the verses before it too. The new covenant is the law written in our hearts. No longer from tablets of stone or written on parchments. No need to teach others to know the Lord. All will know Him. The same 10 commandment law just written in new places
I am unwilling to let anyone smuggle the Sinai covenant back into the New Covenant by appealing to creation, Hebrew word studies, or English assumptions about the word remember.

“Mark 2:27 says mankind, not Jews — therefore the Sabbath is universal.”

False — because Jesus is not giving a creation ordinance. He is correcting Pharisees.**

Mark 2:27: “The Sabbath was made for man…”
Yes, anthrōpos means “humanity.”

But Jesus is not:
universalizing the Sabbath,
legislating a creation command,
re‑imposing Sinai on Gentiles,
giving Adam a Sabbath,
giving the nations a Sabbath.
He is correcting Pharisaic abuse of the Sabbath.

He is saying: “The Sabbath was made to benefit Israel, not to burden Israel.”
Context determines meaning — not lexicons.

If anthrōpos meant “all humanity must keep Sabbath,” then:
Paul could not say “one person esteems one day, another every day alike.”
Paul could not say “let no one judge you regarding Sabbaths.”
The apostles would have commanded Gentiles to keep Sabbath.
The Jerusalem council would have required Sabbath observance.
But none of that happens.

“Adam was made on day 6, Sabbath on day 7 — therefore Adam kept Sabbath.”

False — Genesis never says Adam kept the Sabbath.**

Not once.

There is:
no command to Adam,
no mention of Adam resting,
no mention of Adam sanctifying the seventh day,
no mention of Adam observing a Sabbath,
no mention of any human keeping Sabbath before Moses.
Genesis 2:3 says God rested. It does not say man rested.

The first time the Sabbath is commanded is Exodus 16 — to Israel alone.

Deuteronomy 5:2–3: “The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us.”
The Sabbath was not given to Adam.
It was given to Israel.

“Remember the Sabbath day implies pre‑Sinai observance.”

False — ‘remember’ means ‘do not forget what I am commanding you now.’**

The Hebrew zākar (“remember”) is used constantly for new commands:

“Remember what Amalek did…” (Deut 25:17)
“Remember you were slaves…” (Deut 5:15)
“Remember the LORD your God…” (Deut 8:18)
None of these existed before Sinai.

“Remember” does not mean “this command existed before.” It means: “Do not forget this command I am giving you.”
Your argument is based on English sentiment, not Hebrew grammar.

“The Sabbath is the Sabbath of the LORD, not of the Jews.”

Correct — but irrelevant.**

Yes, the Sabbath belongs to God.
But God gave it to Israel, not to the nations.

Exodus 31:13–17: “It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever.”
Not:
Adam
Noah
Gentiles
the Church
mankind

Israel.

The Sabbath is the sign of the Sinai covenant.
When the covenant ends, the sign ends.

“Hebrews 4 commands Sabbath observance.”
False — Hebrews 4 is about salvation rest, not Saturday rest.**

Hebrews 4:
never mentions Saturday,
never mentions the seventh day command,
never tells Christians to keep Sabbath,
never ties the Sabbath to the New Covenant.

Hebrews 4 uses:
God’s rest (Gen 2:2)
Joshua’s rest
David’s rest
Christ’s rest

to show that the true Sabbath is salvation, not a day.

Hebrews 4:10: “He who has entered His rest has ceased from his works.”
That is conversion, not calendar.

Hebrews 4:11: “Let us labor to enter that rest.”
That is faith, not Saturday.

Your reading forces Hebrews to contradict Paul, who explicitly says: “Let no one judge you regarding Sabbaths.” (Col 2:16)
“One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike.” (Rom 14:5)
Hebrews 4 is not a Sabbath command.
It is a gospel sermon.

“The New Covenant is the same law written in our hearts.”
False — Hebrews says the opposite.**

Hebrews 8:13: “By calling this covenant ‘new,’ He has made the first obsolete.”
The Ten Commandments were:
the tablets of the covenant (Deut 9:9)
the foundation of Sinai (Ex 34:28)
When the covenant ends, its legal structure ends.

The New Covenant is:
not Sinai,
not tablets,
not the Ten Commandments,
not the Sabbath,
not the Mosaic law.

It is:

Christ’s blood,
Christ’s priesthood,
Christ’s Spirit,
Christ’s law of love.
The law written on the heart is Christ’s law, not Moses’ law.

Every claim in that argument is false:

  • Mark 2:27 does not universalize the Sabbath.
  • Adam never kept Sabbath.
  • “Remember” does not imply pre‑Sinai observance.
  • The Sabbath is the sign of the Sinai covenant, not creation.
  • Hebrews 4 does not command Sabbath keeping.
  • The New Covenant is not the Ten Commandments written on hearts.
  • The Sinai covenant is obsolete (Heb 8:13).
  • Therefore its sign — the Sabbath — is obsolete.
The Sabbath was for Israel under Moses, not for the Church under Christ.
 
The New Testament does not seem to designate any particular day of the week for “worship”.
If you want to be blind you will fail to see the truth.

Mar 2:27-28
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Jesus said He was Lord of the Sabbath and that it was made for Man, (all mankind).

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

There are 2 application to the above verse. Both are after the death and resurrection of Jesus. Jesus was referring to a the holy sabbath in the future.

Heb 4:9 KJV There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Rest = sabbath
There remains a sabbath rest for God's people.

The sabbath is in the NT in many places
The sabbath was clearly given to us at creation. And clearly given in the 10 commandments.

Logic would say that God would clearly express a change or a removal of the sabbath.

Presumption changes things when there is no clear reason.