Sabbath or Sunday which one is for the true followers of Chirst?

[SeaBass]

Hmmm, schoolmaster. Hebrews 10 is devoted to explaining the schoolmaster...

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

Animal sacrifices were the shadow, the schoolmaster, the tutor (as the NKJV has it)...

Gal 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

So the purpose of not stealing is to lead us to Christ and once Christ came we do away with the Law about not stealing?

Peter explains about Paul...

2Pe 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

And how one must read ALL of Paul's writings and reconcile them together. Then one looks at them in the light of Christ's clear teachings.

It never ceases to amaze me that people claim to be followers of Christ but believe that Paul overrides and does away with Christ's plain teachings.

So once again I am asking which version of the Law this is? 1.2, 5.4 or 13.8? And has it changed today? Seeing as how, according to you, it is extremely mercurial.

Where are we today? Which version?

Gal 3:24,25 Paul simply says the law was a schoolmaster and we are no longer under that schoolmaster/law.

How can simple words get so misunderstood/twisted?

Even though the OT law was taken away that does not mean stealing becomes alright to do for Christ's NT law that replaced the OT law condemns stealing itself.

 

[john832]

Please show us from Lk 16:17 where Christ said "follow the Law until heaven and earth passed away".

That is wresting of scripture. Again, His point is it would be easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for the purpose (jot and tittles) of the OT law to fail.

OK, then has heaven and earth passed away? By the way, quoting Jesus Christ is wresting scripture? and I did notice that you added the words "for the purpose". You wanna quote that from scripture?

 

[john832]

Gal 3:24,25 Paul simply says the law was a schoolmaster and we are no longer under that schoolmaster/law.

How can simple words get so misunderstood/twisted?

Even though the OT law was taken away that does not mean stealing becomes alright to do for Christ's NT law that replaced the OT law condemns stealing.

Please tell me which Law that is? I showed you it was the Law concerning animal sacrifices.

OK, now tell me which version of Christ's Law we are under now? 1.2? 6.4? 13.8? And why does He keep changing it?

 

[KohenMatt]

Bass,

If this is true, then why did Jesus tell His disciples to follow the Law until heaven and earth passed away?

Christ did not ever say that.

Matthew 5:18-19

New American Standard Bible (NASB)


18" For truly I say to you,until heaven and earth pass away, not [a]the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches [b]others to do the same, shall be called leastin the kingdom of heaven; but whoever [c]keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."


Matthew 5:18-19

New International Version (NIV)


18 "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."


Matthew 5:18-19

King James Version (KJV)


18"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

 

[john832]

Matthew 5:18-19

New American Standard Bible (NASB)


18" For truly I say to you,until heaven and earth pass away, not [a]the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches [b]others to do the same, shall be called leastin the kingdom of heaven; but whoever [c]keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."


Matthew 5:18-19

New International Version (NIV)


18 "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."


Matthew 5:18-19

King James Version (KJV)


18"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Same with Paul's writings, certain verses are taken out of context and out of the overall context of Paul's writings (which are hard to be understood) and used to try to overrule plain scripture.

 

[KohenMatt]

Col 2:14; Eph 2:15; Hebs 9 and 10 show the temporary purpose of the OT law.

Matt 5:18

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."


Hold on a sec, let me go look outside........

 

[KohenMatt]

OK, I'm back.

Yep.

Heaven and earth are still there.

 

[john832]

Matt 5:18

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."


Hold on a sec, let me go look outside........

I just did. Yep, they are still in effect.

 

[SeaBass]

OK, Christ said to keep the Commandments and He said they would be here after heaven and earth passed away. Is there a question about this?

He did not say the law would be in effect after heaven and earth pass away. He said it would be EASIER for heaven and earth to pass away than for the law to fail its intended purpose, bring us to Christ, Gal 3:24,25. And that law/schoolmaster did fuflill its purpose in bringing us to Christ therefore we are no longer under that schoolmaster/law, it was fulfilled, ceased, brought to and end by Christ, Mt 5:17,18

Lk 16:17 Christ is using something of hyperbole, an exaggeration in saying it is easier for heaven and earth would pass away before God's word would fail..ie..using hyperbole in showing the impossibility of God's word failing to accomplish its purpose.

 

[john832]

Hey Bass,

How about telling me what is wrong with the Law given by Christ on Mt. Sinai? I just don't see what is wrong with obeying the Ten Commandments. Maybe you can explain why they are terrible?

 

[SeaBass]

Ah, the handwriting of ordinances? Are the Ten Commandments the handwriting of ordinances?

Exo 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

Let's let Dr. Robert Thiel weigh in on handwriting of ordinances...

What Does Colossians 2:14 Really Say?

It is of interest to note that the expression "the handwriting of requirements" is a Greek legal term that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay--through Jesus the penalty was wiped out ("the handwriting of requirements"), not the law! "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them" (Heb 10:16).

Even Protestant commentators realize this. Notice what Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible states about Colossians 2:14:

Whatever was in force against us is taken out of the way. He has obtained for us a legal discharge from the hand-writing of ordinances, which was against us (v. 14), which may be understood,

1. Of that obligation to punishment in which consists the guilt of sin. The curse of the law is the hand-writing against us, like the hand-writing on Belshazzar's wall. Cursed is every one who continues not in every thing. This was a hand-writing which was against us, and contrary to us; for it threatened our eternal ruin. This was removed when he redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us, Gal 3:13. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.).

Some will argue that you still cannot keep the ten commandments (for "all have sinned"), even if they are all mentioned as being in effect after the crucifixion. Does this mean one should not try?

Furthermore, let's look at another translation:

14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross (Colossians 2:14, NASB)

The handwriting of requirements (often also called the hand-writing of ordinances) or certificate of debt was wiped away and nailed to the cross.

Which requirements were wiped out?

Please understand that the expression "the handwriting of requirements" (cheirógrafon toís dógmasin) is a Greek legal expression that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay--it does not signify the laws that are to be obeyed--only the penalty. It is only through the acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that the penalty was wiped out ("the handwriting of requirements"). But only the penalty, not the law!

CONTEXT!!

The context Paul is saying the Colossians do not need to keep Jewish diets or Jewish days or be fleshly circumcised to be saved [as the false Judaizing teachers were teaching] for the OT law (handwriting of ordinances that required circumcision, special diets and keeping certain days) had been permanently took away.

 

[john832]

He did not say the law would be in effect after heaven and earth pass away. He said it would be EASIER for heaven and earth to pass away than for the law to fail its intended purpose, bring us to Christ, Gal 3:24,25. And that law/schoolmaster did fuflill its purpose in bringing us to Christ therefore we are no longer under that schoolmaster/law, it was fulfilled, ceased, brought to and end by Christ, Mt 5:17,18

Lk 16:17 Christ is using something of hyperbole, an exaggeration in saying it is easier for heaven and earth would pass away before God's word would fail..ie..using hyperbole in showing the impossibility of God's word failing to accomplish its purpose.

Oh, but He did say that they would be in effect past heaven and earth...

Mat 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

So Christ was using hperbole and Paul had to come and straighten out the mess Christ made of it?

 

[john832]

CONTEXT!!

The context Paul is saying the Colossians do not need to be fleshly circumcised to be saved [as the false Judaizing teachers were teaching] for the OT law (handwriting of ordinances) had been permanently took away.

so, the handwriting of ordinances, which is the note of debt we carry for sin, really doesn't mean that. It means the Law? OK, please explain to me which version we are now on? And explain why Christ keeps changing it.

 

[john832]

Hey Bass,

How about telling me what is wrong with the Law given by Christ on Mt. Sinai? I just don't see what is wrong with obeying the Ten Commandments. Maybe you can explain why they are terrible?

Just asking...

 

[SeaBass]

Oh, but He did say that they would be in effect past heaven and earth...

Mat 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

So Christ was using hperbole and Paul had to come and straighten out the mess Christ made of it?

Lk 16:17 does not say the OT law would be in effect as long as heaven and earth exists. That is rewriting the verse.

Mt 24:35; Mk 13:31 do NOT say "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but the OT law shall not pass away"

 

[KohenMatt]

Bass,

Please take some time and look at some of the Scriptures where Jesus talks about the Law. You've quoted Paul, and that's all well and good, but please take a look at the verses where Jesus talks about the Law.

You can't understand Paul until you've understood Jesus.

 

[SeaBass]

Hey Bass,

How about telling me what is wrong with the Law given by Christ on Mt. Sinai? I just don't see what is wrong with obeying the Ten Commandments. Maybe you can explain why they are terrible?

I never said they were terrible. But there were to be temporary in nature to bring us to Christ.

Again, the OT law was only given to the Jews to keep, Deut 5, not to anyone else. So why keep a law that was never given to you to keep?

The OT law cannot make one a Christian, cannot remit sins completely, is not the standard of worship the NT church follows.

Gal 2:21 if the OT law can make one righteous, then Christ is dead in vain for there would been no reason for Christ to take it out of the way if it could make one righteous before God. But there was nothing but the blood of bulls and goats under the O law that could not completely remit sins so no one under OT laws could be justified before God, as Paul notes in Rom chapters 1,2,3 those Gentiles under the law that existed prior to the law of Moses and the Jews that the law of Moses was given had NO JUSTIFICATION (all under sin) being without the blood of Christ that cleanses away all sins.

 

[SeaBass]

Bass,

Please take some time and look at some of the Scriptures where Jesus talks about the Law. You've quoted Paul, and that's all well and good, but please take a look at the verses where Jesus talks about the Law.

You can't understand Paul until you've understood Jesus.

I understand what Jesus and Paul are saying. Those trying to maintain the OT law is still in effect do not.

 

[KohenMatt]

I understand what Jesus and Paul are saying. Those trying to maintain the OT law is still in effect do not.

Then how do you interpret Jesus's words to follow the Law and teach others to do so?

 

[john832]

I never said they were terrible. But there were to be temporary in nature to bring us to Christ.

Again, the OT law was only given to the Jews to keep, Deut 5, not to anyone else. So why keep a law that was never given to you to keep?

The OT law cannot make one a Christian, cannot remit sins completely, is not the standard of worship the NT church follows.

Gal 2:21 if the OT law can make one righteous, then Christ is dead in vain for there would been no reason for Christ to take it out of the way if it could make one righteous before God. But there was nothing but the blood of bulls and goats under the O law that could not completely remit sins so no one under OT laws could be justified before God, as Paul notes in Rom chapters 1,2,3 those Gentiles under the law that existed prior to the law of Moses and the Jews that the law of Moses was given had NO JUSTIFICATION (all under sin) being without the blood of Christ that cleanses away all sins.

Which of these supposed new laws you propound can make a person a Christian?

And you still haven't told me which version we are on, 1.2? 3.7? 15.9?

And why does Christ keep changing them?