Salvation Lost? Really?
- Thread starter Musicmaster
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Again, I must ask for clarification of your highly general statements. How do you judge that believing in what Paul preached as the Gospel for salvation somehow equates to a lack of "Fear of God"? You've given to us nothing of substance as to why anyone should believe anything you have said along this line of your thinking. It appears to be a holier-than-thou declaration on your part to judge others to this extent, but I'm giving to you the benefit of the doubt.
Please clarify.
MM
Please clarify.
MM
There are two types of people in that camp. Proponents of replacement theology have done famously to mask that hellish doctrine within the unsuspecting minds of many. Those who fully are sold out to that hellish theology think that they can skirt the appearance of support for that devilish theology through spiritualizing identity rather than to outright claim replacement. The others who are not aware of what they're actually supporting by way of various expressions of anti-Semitism that hide themselves under the guise of a spiritual identity, they are among the victims of the machinations of the anti-Semites.
MM
MM
(sigh) Ok, so you're not willing to solidify why or how you arrived at that conclusion that you applied with broad brush strokes to say that all "grace" followers lack fear of God. If you don't have anything of substance to back what you stated, then we are left with no other conclusion than to ascertain that your comment was utterly meaningless and out of place.
Ok, well, at least we now know.
Thanks for clarifying that...unless, again, you have something of substance to back it. I'm giving to you that benefit of doubt.
MM
Ok, well, at least we now know.
Thanks for clarifying that...unless, again, you have something of substance to back it. I'm giving to you that benefit of doubt.
MM
You want tell me that the Holy Spirit told you that the body of the church of Christ is the spiritual Israel?
According my understanding, which maby is wrong, God has a separate plan with Israel the descendes of Jacob, then with the body of Christ.
Christ is God, he is not spiritual Israel. I would say.
That the believers out of the jews are graftet into the olive tree. Is a fact. But not a reason for to be arrogant according Romans 11
According my understanding, which maby is wrong, God has a separate plan with Israel the descendes of Jacob, then with the body of Christ.
Christ is God, he is not spiritual Israel. I would say.
That the believers out of the jews are graftet into the olive tree. Is a fact. But not a reason for to be arrogant according Romans 11
I took posts at face value and maybe I errored doing so.
But if we took Grace as a license to sin for example. This clearly doesn't exemplify someone having the Biblical form of fear of God. It looks more so like arbitration and they're convinced they're smarter than the Word of God.
But if we took Grace as a license to sin for example. This clearly doesn't exemplify someone having the Biblical form of fear of God. It looks more so like arbitration and they're convinced they're smarter than the Word of God.
-
1
- Show all
There is some merit to that consideration, but my experience with all this has not shown to me one person on the side of the Gospel of Grace who ever even hinted at the idea of license for sin. All that I have ever heard is the voices of legalists who stand on the side of the Kingdom Gospel still being in effect today allegedly being their out from the accusation of equally practicing license for sin.
What I'm saying is that the legalism of required water baptism doesn't have some magical force that keeps them from equally living out license for sin. We all still sin...every day; the difference being that sin in our lives has become the exception rather than the rule. Does that make sense?
So, when legalists claim we under grace believe we now have license to sin because of our always being saved and not required to do works for salvation and to retain salvation, that only drives home to me the depravity on the side of all the legalists who stand under the legalisms of the Kingdom Gospel.
No thanks. We do works to store up treasure in heaven and because of our love for the Lord, and are fully aware of the horrors that will be experienced by all those who have no treasures of reward in Heaven awaiting them.
So, by all means, try to obtain and retain salvation by works all you want, but I will not gamble that system as still being valid because I know that it is not since it was not spoken nor written TO us.
Carry on, my friend. Carry on as best you can in your efforts. I defend your right to believe as you wish.
MM
What I'm saying is that the legalism of required water baptism doesn't have some magical force that keeps them from equally living out license for sin. We all still sin...every day; the difference being that sin in our lives has become the exception rather than the rule. Does that make sense?
So, when legalists claim we under grace believe we now have license to sin because of our always being saved and not required to do works for salvation and to retain salvation, that only drives home to me the depravity on the side of all the legalists who stand under the legalisms of the Kingdom Gospel.
No thanks. We do works to store up treasure in heaven and because of our love for the Lord, and are fully aware of the horrors that will be experienced by all those who have no treasures of reward in Heaven awaiting them.
So, by all means, try to obtain and retain salvation by works all you want, but I will not gamble that system as still being valid because I know that it is not since it was not spoken nor written TO us.
Carry on, my friend. Carry on as best you can in your efforts. I defend your right to believe as you wish.
MM
-
2
- Show all
lrs68 brought up a good point, for which I am thankful:
The mental crisis that takes place in the minds of legalists, those who believe that one must do works for salvation and/or do works to maintain salvation, leads them to the conclusion that Gospel of Grace defenders believe in license to sin since salvation, as we read about in scripture, cannot be lost.
So, here's the breakdown:
1) Supposing that one can only bring about salvation by something like water baptism unto the remission of sins, and/or
2) Must maintain salvation by works as a proof for their faith...
This introduces the tragedy of legalism. Why? How?
Here's why and how:
1) To say that one must be water baptized is introduction to others what is "another gospel."
Galatians 1:8-9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Notice that Paul did not say that that other gospel had to be a false gospel, but that ANY OTHER gospel preached to the body of Christ, that person is to be accursed. We can clearly see that the Kingdom Gospel is ANOTHER gospel not intended for those who are under the Gospel of Grace that was preached by Paul.
So the prerequisite for water baptism unto the remission of sins, which was true under ANOTHER gospel, though true for them and not true for us today, was still a true gospel, and yet still ANOTHER gospel.
2) Maintaining one's salvation is yet another element of the Kingdom Gospel that was not ever verbalized nor written about by Paul to the body of Christ. James wrote the twelve tribes of Israel that they had to do works as the evidence of their faith. Paul never wrote any such thing to us under his gospel of Christ given to him directly from Christ Jesus. Again, that is ANOTHER gospel as characterized by the necessity for WORKS.
Retaining one's salvation, then, and thus not losing it, requires WORKS under that other gospel, which was true TO those to whom it was written and spoken.
So, the massive confusions that have arisen when intermixing ANOTHER gospel with the Gospel of Grace, we can see how that mixture has caused much divisional destruction of unity, and that's sad. I hate to see it. The taint of legalism is indeed a tool of Satan, used like a wedge, with the legalists leveling false accusations such as "license to sin" against those who believe in the absolute power and completion of the sacrifice that Christ suffered and declared, "It is finished." He didn't say, "It has begun..." It is a finished work for which we do not have to work to obtain nor to retain.
What manner of effort on our part could possibly supplement what Christ did on the cross where He declared, "It is finished"?
Sadly, Satan has those he uses as his battering rams to level false accusations against the weaker in the faith, driving them to the same legalisms as what they see as being requirements upon us all today, stoically planting their feet in the grounding or legalistic falsehoods that simply were not written TO us.
MM
The mental crisis that takes place in the minds of legalists, those who believe that one must do works for salvation and/or do works to maintain salvation, leads them to the conclusion that Gospel of Grace defenders believe in license to sin since salvation, as we read about in scripture, cannot be lost.
So, here's the breakdown:
1) Supposing that one can only bring about salvation by something like water baptism unto the remission of sins, and/or
2) Must maintain salvation by works as a proof for their faith...
This introduces the tragedy of legalism. Why? How?
Here's why and how:
1) To say that one must be water baptized is introduction to others what is "another gospel."
Galatians 1:8-9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Notice that Paul did not say that that other gospel had to be a false gospel, but that ANY OTHER gospel preached to the body of Christ, that person is to be accursed. We can clearly see that the Kingdom Gospel is ANOTHER gospel not intended for those who are under the Gospel of Grace that was preached by Paul.
So the prerequisite for water baptism unto the remission of sins, which was true under ANOTHER gospel, though true for them and not true for us today, was still a true gospel, and yet still ANOTHER gospel.
2) Maintaining one's salvation is yet another element of the Kingdom Gospel that was not ever verbalized nor written about by Paul to the body of Christ. James wrote the twelve tribes of Israel that they had to do works as the evidence of their faith. Paul never wrote any such thing to us under his gospel of Christ given to him directly from Christ Jesus. Again, that is ANOTHER gospel as characterized by the necessity for WORKS.
Retaining one's salvation, then, and thus not losing it, requires WORKS under that other gospel, which was true TO those to whom it was written and spoken.
So, the massive confusions that have arisen when intermixing ANOTHER gospel with the Gospel of Grace, we can see how that mixture has caused much divisional destruction of unity, and that's sad. I hate to see it. The taint of legalism is indeed a tool of Satan, used like a wedge, with the legalists leveling false accusations such as "license to sin" against those who believe in the absolute power and completion of the sacrifice that Christ suffered and declared, "It is finished." He didn't say, "It has begun..." It is a finished work for which we do not have to work to obtain nor to retain.
What manner of effort on our part could possibly supplement what Christ did on the cross where He declared, "It is finished"?
Sadly, Satan has those he uses as his battering rams to level false accusations against the weaker in the faith, driving them to the same legalisms as what they see as being requirements upon us all today, stoically planting their feet in the grounding or legalistic falsehoods that simply were not written TO us.
MM
-
1
- Show all