Salvation Lost? Really?

[Musicmaster]

I put forth a poorly formatted (lost the original formatting when pasting and didn't notice before editing ability lapsed), [too] lengthy thoughts post earlier. Rather than starting from the loss of salvation OP like so many others that end up in the typical mass of repeated disagreement, although not unique, I turned it back to a question of who truly believes and is true belief determined by God rather than just viewed loosely as it seems is normally the case.

I'm not aware of any one verse that specifically breaks down a Deific definition for belief/faith that would be a departure from what was normally understood by the ancients. To them, it was works-based from the perspective of Israel and from paganism. However, the body of Christ is not comprised only of Israel, but mostly Gentiles who did not come from the works-based system of the Mosaic Law, which carried over into the Kingdom Gospel, but from their pagan grounding that had variations of works not holistically defined for all as was the case with the Mosaic Law.

In answer to your question here re: the Sealing, in light of what I just said, I'd answer in the same track, who truly gets sealed?

In further answer and more globally, I think the whole works salvation argument is overdone and many remain on the outward ranges of the pendulum swings both ways. Most errors are met with counterarguments that also end up being erroneous.

Then, yes, salvation in its full scope involves good works we were created to do under grace in Christ in Spirit meaning apart from God we can do nothing but in Christ we can do all things including work with God to accomplish our salvation that is first and foremost His salvation that He gifts to men.

The only caution I would cast into that is the Calvinistic bent that many now throw into the pot that is a strong tendency for so many...so much so that it has regained popularity moreso than rightly dividing the word of truth. The blend of their theology is, as before, a mixed mish-mash of gospels and theological mind and word games to try and make it palatable to more people. It tends toward removing responsibility from the individual believer for their faith, claiming that it's ALL the Lord's doing, which is the reason they are told by others that their theology begs the question: Why should any of us engage sharing the confused mixture of their gospel if none can even possess faith in the first place.

I'm not sure if you've kept your fingers in the pulse of popular doctrines and dogmas out there, but much of evangelicalism has gravitated over to the side of Calvinism, which has tainted a number of unbelievers I have encountered who want nothing to do with the Bible because of the hypocrisies inherent within the various inclusions of Calvinistic warps and twists. That's not to say that everything he taught was wrong, but you know what just a little leaven does to the whole loaf...

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I wasn't judging you. I was speaking for myself.

Understood, but what you stated is something I have also heard from some others, so you're not alone in those thoughts. That was my aim in conveying...if not explicitly stated.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

There actually is a power that can combine works and grace: that power is Jesus Christ. And then the works we do are from the grace of God working in us.

I am not afraid of "works". I am glad that works are very part of what saves me from a miserable life of following the flesh and the Devil.

Agreed. It's not some fear of works, it's that works play no part in the grace of God extended to us through our faith.

MM

 

[studier]

I'm not aware of any one verse that specifically breaks down a Deific definition for belief/faith that would be a departure from what was normally understood by the ancients. To them, it was works-based from the perspective of Israel and from paganism. However, the body of Christ is not comprised only of Israel, but mostly Gentiles who did not come from the works-based system of the Mosaic Law, which carried over into the Kingdom Gospel, but from their pagan grounding that had variations of works not holistically defined for all as was the case with the Mosaic Law.

I'm not entirely certain what all your meaning is here, and some of it re: faith depends on what you mean by "the ancients". I can see how the NT writers speak of Biblical Faith and that's where I base my thinking. I also am comfortable I sufficiently understand what faith vs. works of law mean.

he only caution I would cast into that is the Calvinistic bent that many now throw into the pot that is a strong tendency for so many...so much so that it has regained popularity moreso than rightly dividing the word of truth. The blend of their theology is, as before, a mixed mish-mash of gospels and theological mind and word games to try and make it palatable to more people. It tends toward removing responsibility from the individual believer for their faith, claiming that it's ALL the Lord's doing, which is the reason they are told by others that their theology begs the question: Why should any of us engage sharing the confused mixture of their gospel if none can even possess faith in the first place.

I'm not sure if you've kept your fingers in the pulse of popular doctrines and dogmas out there, but much of evangelicalism has gravitated over to the side of Calvinism, which has tainted a number of unbelievers I have encountered who want nothing to do with the Bible because of the hypocrisies inherent within the various inclusions of Calvinistic warps and twists. That's not to say that everything he taught was wrong, but you know what just a little leaven does to the whole loaf...

No caution necessary while no problem with your giving it. I've been trained on different traditions, then learned Greek and some Hebrew (which (Heb) I've pretty much lost but can slowly work in it to some degree), then came to disagree with the tradition I was involved in, then moved to an island and studied pretty much full time for about 15 years in the Greek with a lot of tools and resources.

On other threads here and other forums and for many years I have interacted with Calvinists and disagree with them on pretty much all things TULIP. I'm trying to stay out of such discussions as they are never-ending, frequently get hostile with fallacious argumentation, and never resolve anything. So goes with traditions and I understand experientially, personally, and in dealing closely with some, how difficult it can be to leave them after so much commitment and indoctrination. The thought of doing so actually seems to cause what seems to be a sense of fear.

 

[ServantofMostHigh]

Philosophy, in relation to the Bible, or philosophy in relation to secular constructs from established writers such as Kant, et al? Biblical philosophy is a constellation of arguments that are not so plastic and pliable as is secular, so what I recommend is that you start a new thread, which will have to be reviewed by the moderators before it is made available to the rest of the membership to see, and fire away.

This thread is for the stated topic of salvation and its alleged loss. There are those who do little more than to hyjack other people's threads, which is seen as bad etiquette by many. Just letting you know how things generally work in these threads.

Now, when it comes to topical constraints, there is a reasonable range of items that can be discussed that still are associated with the original post (OP) topic, and is not seen as hijacking. So long as the other topics brought forth are relatable to the OP in some way, it's a free range.

So, if you want an open range of philosophical topics for a thread, be prepared for potential chaos if enough people are interested, but you have to understand that not many people here are trained in the field of philosophical methodologies, such as logic, logical fallacies and reason. There are quite a number of people here whose only weapons in their arsenal is ad hominem. There is a growing list populating my IGNORE on this board, in this software so that I don't see any of their posts nor their comments that others are addressing.

If you are easily offended by violations of common courtesy and decency, be prepared for violations galore. The wolf packs out there who seem to have nothing better to do than to wreck other people's threads with ad hominem and innuendos from their lack in abilities for civility, they will give you a good going over in ways that makes rationality look like an impossibility to be addressed with them. The stoic, "This is what I believe, and so to Sheol with what the Bible says...," is a powerful force when you realize you are confronted with group-think, with the bandwagon riders throwing their garbage in all directions hoping to hit someone not of their ilk.

Does that help?

Welcome to the jungle...

MM

I would like to have a debate about 72

I've watched and was actually close to some who were working very hard to exegetically prove Faith is an absolutely passive function in order to defend against works doctrine. Much of that was based at least part in the "persuasion" concepts I was discussing earlier on another thread.

I agree with your assessment.

so much organised Christianity say so much about The Holy Spirit but when 1 comes Speaking from That Spirit he gets denied and drowned out, I speak like an

 

[Edify]

Read Hebrews 11. Tell me of someone in there who did no righteous works.

 

[Musicmaster]

Read Hebrews 11. Tell me of someone in there who did no righteous works.

I'm curious, if you don't mind my asking: Given that Hebrews was written to Israel, and that no good works led to salvation itself, what do you see in that chapter? I'm asking from the basis of a systematic study on this topic rather than a few verses in one place.

MM

 

[Chester]

Agreed. It's not some fear of works, it's that works play no part in the grace of God extended to us through our faith.

MM

Ephesians 2:8-10

For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God . . . but we are his workmanship . . .

The grace, the faith, and the works are all a part of God's gift of salvation to all who are thirsty and come to drink.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I'm curious, if you don't mind my asking: Given that Hebrews was written to Israel, and that no good works led to salvation itself, what do you see in that chapter? I'm asking from the basis of a systematic study on this topic rather than a few verses in one place.

It may have been written to Jewish believers, but it wasn't written exclusively for Jewish believers. It was written for all believers just like the Old Testament was written to Israel, but was written for all believer's admonition.

Now all these things happened to them for examples, and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the end of the age has come. 1 Corinthians 10:11​

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All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16-17​

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[Chester]

Agreed. It's not some fear of works, it's that works play no part in the grace of God extended to us through our faith.

MM

I am not sure I understand. Do we not need the grace of God in order to do good works?

 

[Musicmaster]

I am not sure I understand. Do we not need the grace of God in order to do good works?

Good question. For clarification: Going in the order that scripture presents to us that so many others get so wrong is that first, initially, when a person, in their heart and mind, concerning their need for salvation, deliverance from their sin once aware of their sinful and lost state, turns their faith upon Christ Jesus in what He accomplished for all mankind in His death, burial and resurrection on the third day, that is the point the Lord gives His grace to that individual because of their true faith. Works comes in as a result of the grace from the Lord.

So, yes, we are in agreement based upon what you stated in post 228. The warped idea that one can initially do works pleasing to the Lord for the bestowment of His grace, that is a work-based salvation that so many believe exists, and it is false. Paul made that so clear throughout his epistles, and many remain confused because they fail to rightly divide the word of truth in this regard.

They rightly divide from us the Law of Moses, but they fail to rightly divide the Kingdom Gospel from the Gospel of Grace.

Does that better explain my statements? Their putting the cart before the horse only causes them mass confusion and legalism in their salvational message they preach to others and congregations of followers within churchianity. We can still love Peter, James, et al, without accepting their gospel of works as applying to us today since that was not spoken TO us nor written TO us. (James 1:1)

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

If one believes he or she can lose their salvation, then how does that one recognize where that line is allegedly drawn, over which they would allegedly have to pass in order to lose their salvation?

The fact is, if retaining salvation by avoidance in crossing over that imaginary line, which exists only within the mind of the individual, that is a self-effort.

Others may say that it is the Lord who keeps us from crossing over that line. If this latter point were remotely true, then how could one then lose salvation without making the Lord out to be the guilty culprit for having failed in keeping that one from crossing over that line?

Loss of salvation, then, is a self-defeating concept. Some like to throw into this the idea of intellectually declaring the non-existence of God after having truly been saved. To that we must ask how that one could ever have truly been saved? Anyone who has been saved receives a renewing of their minds, and is a new creation in Christ. How, then, can that one deny what they once knew to be true? Again, this is self-defeating.

Others yet may come along and the hypothetical of life that sometimes throws in such horrid hardships of experience that some have been driven to despair so great that they turned their heart against God on that basis. Is the feeling of despair, then, the contrived culprit? Does despair and depression from life's situations steal one's salvation, or is it the alleged reaction of denial of Christ?

The fluidity of hypotheticals without keeping our feet on the grounds of reality are all far too easy from one to try and argue with smug indifference to dealing with each person individually, here in the real world. Who have you ever known who sank to that extreme, knew with the knowledge of Deity that the person was truly saved in the first place, and also having the knowledge of Deity that they lose their salvation on the basis of reaction to hardships and depression?

The loss of salvation is far too convenient an argument to try and foist upon others without any real understanding of the ripple effects of such a philosophy. Consider the shadows that attempts to cast upon Holy Spirit and the ability of the Spirit of God to hold a genuine seal of the Spirit upon each individual who is truly saved by grace through faith. Is God so weak that NOW a soul can be snatched from the Hand of Christ Jesus?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Romans 7:14-25
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This is a powerful argument against one facet of this discussion, which is the nature of the saved. Please consider this in your meditation time, reading it over and over, letting it sink in and align your understanding to that of the Lord's thinking.

MM

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

If one believes he or she can lose their salvation, then how does that one recognize where that line is allegedly drawn, over which they would allegedly have to pass in order to lose their salvation?

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 2 Timothy 2:12-13​

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Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus 1:15-16​

 

[Chester]

Good question. For clarification: Going in the order that scripture presents to us that so many others get so wrong is that first, initially, when a person, in their heart and mind, concerning their need for salvation, deliverance from their sin once aware of their sinful and lost state, turns their faith upon Christ Jesus in what He accomplished for all mankind in His death, burial and resurrection on the third day, that is the point the Lord gives His grace to that individual because of their true faith. Works comes in as a result of the grace from the Lord.

So, yes, we are in agreement based upon what you stated in post 228. The warped idea that one can initially do works pleasing to the Lord for the bestowment of His grace, that is a work-based salvation that so many believe exists, and it is false. Paul made that so clear throughout his epistles, and many remain confused because they fail to rightly divide the word of truth in this regard.

They rightly divide from us the Law of Moses, but they fail to rightly divide the Kingdom Gospel from the Gospel of Grace.

Does that better explain my statements? Their putting the cart before the horse only causes them mass confusion and legalism in their salvational message they preach to others and congregations of followers within churchianity. We can still love Peter, James, et al, without accepting their gospel of works as applying to us today since that was not spoken TO us nor written TO us. (James 1:1)

MM

So do you, then, believe that Peter and James and their writings are not part of God's message to Gentile believers in America today?

And are you saying that their message is different than the message of Paul?

 

[Chester]

If one believes he or she can lose their salvation, then how does that one recognize where that line is allegedly drawn, over which they would allegedly have to pass in order to lose their salvation?
MM

Why would one even need to worry about an alleged line to cross, etc. What matters is what Scripture says about what it takes to be saved. For myself, I just read the Scriptures themselves to see what they say about salvation and how to retain it.

 

[Musicmaster]

So do you, then, believe that Peter and James and their writings are not part of God's message to Gentile believers in America today?

And are you saying that their message is different than the message of Paul?

Good question. Rather than to suggest in the minds of some others reading this some sort of sinister belief on my part, let me quote these statements from Paul:

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

1 Timothy 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

2 Timothy 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

Now, who was James speaking to?

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

And to whom was Peter speaking?

Acts 2:14, 22, 29, 37-38
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: ...
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: ...
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. ...
37 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Now, compare that with Paul's Gospel:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Notice the absence of the requirement for baptism for the remission (forgiveness) of sins, as was required of Israel in the Kingdom Gospel, and yet there are those out there who continue to parrot the claim that it's all the same gospel. One cannot arrive at that conclusion without applying intellectual dishonesty through injections into some of the text what clearly is not there.

What James and Peter preached was true and absolutely applicable to Israel at that time. I am not at all even implying that they taught falsehoods. The strange idea that the Lord does not and cannot change how He deals with mankind is the absurdity to which some will go in order to defend their pet doctrines. That is the fodder of those who don't know the scriptures, or have an axe to grind against the Lord of Glory. Jesus commanded a man to offer up sacrifices, according to the Law of Moses, and the vast majority of us will say that such is not required of us today, nor would we lay blame at the Feet of the Lord that He is inconsistent.

That what Peter and James spoke to those who were under the Kingdom Gospel, that means what they wrote is FOR us all, but not all is TO us today. See the difference? The one word that some hate is "dispensation" that they will ignorantly claim was an invention of Darby, which is a favorite go-to claim by the ignorant who collectively ride that band wagon without regard for what scripture actually teaches. I encourage you to read all that I quoted from scripture in context, and let it speak for itself without the colored lenses of works-based religion and denominational dogmas that are contrary to the clear language of God's word.

To believe that any of us can supplement the shed Blood of Christ for our redemption, and/or that we must maintain our salvation by the works of our efforts, that is "another gospel" that the preachers and teachers of which should be accursed.

Does that help?

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Why would one even need to worry about an alleged line to cross, etc. What matters is what Scripture says about what it takes to be saved. For myself, I just read the Scriptures themselves to see what they say about salvation and how to retain it.

You do not have to "retain" it. That is works-based salvation, which is not what scripture teaches. If you read the scriptures themselves above all else, then you should also understand the necessity for rightly dividing the word of truth. When it comes to scripture, we do not apply that division in a manner whereby we are dividing truth from falsehood. No. We are commanded to divide truth from truth, for not all truth in scripture was written TO us, just as in my example of the Lord telling one of the men He healed to go and offer up the required sacrifices in accordance with the Mosaic Law. Jesus spoke it, it was written, but it was not spoken nor written TO us. It is FOR us, but not TO us, for ALL the word of God is good for instruction, correction, rebuke, etc., but not all of it was written TO us today as applying to the Lord's dealings with us.

I am an Israeli, but I am not under the Kingdom Gospel, and neither are you. We are all under the Gospel of Grace today:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

How can anyone earn a gift, and how does one retain that gift? To say otherwise runs aground of this:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

To claim that one can also retain their salvation, that is boasting.

There are other verses that some would bring up that demonstrate a lack of understanding on their part, such as working out one's salvation in fear and trembling. They will misapply the meaning as it being a matter if retention, even in the face of Christ's own words:

John 10:28-29
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

If that doesn't give those people the intended sense of security for their salvation, then they believe in a god of their own making who is incapable of assuring this as being true in its absolute sense:

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise...

Are you sealed by faith, or do you think you are sealed by faith and works of effort on you part? Those out there who think they are strong enough to have earned their salvation and have the strength to hold onto it, they have reason to boast, but not in Christ Jesus. They boast in some other creature to whom we have not been called by Christ to serve and follow.

MM

 

[BillyBob]

The loss of salvation is far too convenient an argument to try and foist upon others without any real understanding of the ripple effects of such a philosophy. Consider the shadows that attempts to cast upon Holy Spirit and the ability of the Spirit of God to hold a genuine seal of the Spirit upon each individual who is truly saved by grace through faith. Is God so weak that NOW a soul can be snatched from the Hand of Christ Jesus?

According to the above post, you have come to terms with the “P” in tulip. Just four more letters and you will be known as reformed in your understanding of scripture!

 

[Musicmaster]

According to the above post, you have come to terms with the “P” in tulip. Just four more letters and you will be known as reformed in your understanding of scripture!

Nope. Perseverance is what the Lord preached to Israel for their salvation. That does not apply to the body of Christ given that we are sealed by Holy Spirit, as is stated in scripture:

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Ephsians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

I'm sure there are nay-sayers out there who will try to argue their armchair expertise in Greek language, claiming that these verses do not say what they "seem" to say, etc., etc., etc., but having researched this enough to know that the English in these verses reflect very well the Greek from which they were translated, this gives to us ample indication of their consistency with Paul's meaning when he penned the words.

MM