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Salvation Not Possible Without Works
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Who said I make doctrine on one verse besides you?
There are many verses :
Hear: John 20:30-31, Rom 10:17
Believe: Rom 1:16, Acts 18:8, Heb 11:6
Repent: Luke 13:3, Luke 24:47, Acts 3:19, Acts 17:30
Confess Faith in Christ: Rom 10:9-10, Acts 8:37
Be Baptized: Mat. 28:19, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:47-48, Acts 22:16
Just to name a few, all of these are righteous works.
MsLicentiousness (kidding), grace does not empower people to sin, its frees from the power of sin. Sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but grace. When people object to grace preaching on the grounds of licentiousness, they need to realize two things. First, people don't need a license to sin, they already are sinning. Secondly, more law preaching isn't going to make them stop sinning. Did people under law stop sinning or did the law just reveal the state of their sinfulness? It is holy, just, and good(the law) but it never was made to make a person such. It is a school master leading to Christ. Once in Christ, you are no longer under a tutor.
Grace, as I heard in an article, has a crux, or pivotal point. I will post what the article said:
This vital, pivotal point the Lord was showing me in His word was that He fulfilled the complete law, that God has put away the law in His finished work and our flesh was crucified with Him on the cross. That His fullness, His grace only speaks to our born again spirit. That His pure grace cannot lead anybody to sin as it does not speak to our flesh/carnal mind. This was the crux of grace that nobody can come against.
Galatians 5:16-18
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
You can't blame grace for sin. Those, rare, examples of people sinning and using grace to justify it, indeed do not understand grace, and may not even have it. As I said, "Sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but grace." I'm sure the same people using grace as an excuse to indulge in sin, would do the same in the OT times by sacrificing animals and using the blood of bulls and goats. They would sin and then sacrifice, and continue to do it, so as to live in their sinful indulgence. Licentiousness is not something you can attribute to grace, in so much as purposely having sin dominate your life. That is not what grace teaches, but indeed if you do sin, grace abounds.
[h=3]Titus 2:11-13[/h]New International Version (NIV)
11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
Grace, as I heard in an article, has a crux, or pivotal point. I will post what the article said:
This vital, pivotal point the Lord was showing me in His word was that He fulfilled the complete law, that God has put away the law in His finished work and our flesh was crucified with Him on the cross. That His fullness, His grace only speaks to our born again spirit. That His pure grace cannot lead anybody to sin as it does not speak to our flesh/carnal mind. This was the crux of grace that nobody can come against.
Galatians 5:16-18
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
You can't blame grace for sin. Those, rare, examples of people sinning and using grace to justify it, indeed do not understand grace, and may not even have it. As I said, "Sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but grace." I'm sure the same people using grace as an excuse to indulge in sin, would do the same in the OT times by sacrificing animals and using the blood of bulls and goats. They would sin and then sacrifice, and continue to do it, so as to live in their sinful indulgence. Licentiousness is not something you can attribute to grace, in so much as purposely having sin dominate your life. That is not what grace teaches, but indeed if you do sin, grace abounds.
[h=3]Titus 2:11-13[/h]New International Version (NIV)
11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
You confuse the Law of Moses with the Law of Christ, Gal 5:18 is talking about the law of Moses, but you can see in Romans 8 we are under the Law of Christ,
Romans 8:2 (NKJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Again, we see we are under the Law of Christ in James,
James 1:25 (NKJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. (notice the doer part)
James 2:12 (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
why, do you think it will change my mind?
Read my last posts which show that your post had some major errors.
did you even read the one which proved grace and works do not mix?? yet you want them to mix?? WHy?
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Yet none of those passages show one MUST be baptized in water to be saved
Again, If you want a baptism of men, Have it, I chose to be baptized by God with a perfect baptism.
the rest are not righteous works, they are works of God. WHo without his work. I could do none of them
I didn't confuse anything... you must've misread what I wrote. I know that we are under the Law of Love and not the mosaic law. Might I also add, about the "doing" part, this is in reference to our reward at the judgment seat of Christ (Bema). Hence why you read, in what you wrote, says "But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty...this one will be blessed in what he does." As I've said in earlier posts, salvation isn't at risk, our rewards are.
That verse I quoted was for the purpose of showing that we are led by the Spirit and not the law, and in being led, we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Hence, mosaic law preaching to a congregation that is sinning is not the solution. Grace is, telling them about walking in the Spirit and being led by the Spirit.
Mark 16:16 says you MUST be baptized in water to be saved, because you reject the word of God does not make you correct.
All of those scriptures are commands, that means you must "do" them to be righteous, if you think you can be righteous without obeying God, you have had a very bad teacher.
Hey, Jabberjaw, I thought that you would like this exert from an article.
Those who try to useMark 16:16to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation commit a common but serious mistake that is sometimes called the Negative Inference Fallacy. This is the rule to follow: “If a statement is true, we cannot assume that all negations (or opposites) of that statement are also true." For example, the statement “a dog with brown spots is an animal” is true; however, the negative, “if a dog does not have brown spots, it is not an animal” is false. In the same way, “he who believes and is baptized will be saved” is true; however, the statement “he who believes but is not baptized will not be saved” is an unwarranted assumption. Yet this is exactly the assumption made by those who support baptismal regeneration
It goes on to make another good point:
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16). This verse is composed of two basic statements. 1—He who believes and is baptized will be saved. 2—He who does not believe will be condemned.
While this verse tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they are saved), it does not say anything about believers who havenotbeen baptized. In order for this verse to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation, a third statement would be necessary, viz., “He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned” or “He who is not baptized will be condemned.” But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse.
and:
Consider this example: "Whoever believes and lives in Kansas will be saved, but those that do not believe are condemned." This statement is strictly true; Kansans who believe in Jesus will be saved. However, to say that only those believers who live in Kansas are saved is an illogical and false assumption. The statement does not say a believer must live in Kansas in order to go to heaven. Similarly,Mark 16:16 does not say a believer must be baptized. The verse states a fact about baptized believers (they will be saved), but it says exactly nothing about believers who have not been baptized. There may be believers who do not dwell in Kansas, yet they are still saved; and there may be believers who have not been baptized, yet they, too, are still saved.
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I didn't confuse anything... you must've misread what I wrote. I know that we are under the Law of Love and not the mosaic law. Might I also add, about the "doing" part, this is in reference to our reward at the judgment seat of Christ (Bema). Hence why you read, in what you wrote, says "But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty...this one will be blessed in what he does." As I've said in earlier posts, salvation isn't at risk, our rewards are.
Lets step back a couple verses, Ill include all 3 :
James 1:23-25 (NKJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; [SUP]24 [/SUP]for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
One must be a "doer" not just a "hearer" therefore one that is a doer, it can be said he is a worker doing the righteous works of the law of liberty
To this I can agree, but waking in the Spirit is a righteous work of obedience, without obedience to the word of God how can one walk in the Spirit, this is where everyone needs to see the difference in "works of merit" which will not save you (it was the law of Moses), but righteous works by being obedient the same as Abraham when he was willing to offer up his son, and Naaman when he was told to dip 7 times, 6 would not do it, 9 would not do it, another body of water would not do it, but dip 7 times in the Jordan, it was "obedient works of faith" that justifies us.
Simple Logic that man made doctrine makes complicated to fit their man made theology:
Mark 16:16 (NKJV)
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]Believe = True[/TD]
[TD]Baptized = True[/TD]
[TD]Saved = True[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Believe = False[/TD]
[TD]Baptized = True[/TD]
[TD]Saved = False[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Believe = True[/TD]
[TD]Baptized = False[/TD]
[TD]Saved = False[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Believe = False[/TD]
[TD]Baptized = False[/TD]
[TD]Saved = False[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Why? if one does not believe they would not be baptized, and why would one be baptized if they did not believe?, there is no third statement required. it is clear enough, as the truth table above shows.
The good thief did technically have a good work: an act of humility "Remember me when Thou comest in Thy Kingdom"
The works in themselves DO NOT save but it is both taken together (Works proving our Faith) that saves us For St. James says "Faith without works is dead." However Works without Faith is a contradiction. For Christ preformed many works, and to be followers of Christ, we must strive to be like Him by works also.
Mark 16:15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 .) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
He that believeth................................and is baptized......................BUT HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT...................
how in the world can people not understand this? (sigh)
Believe = true, baptize = false, saved = False is a false assumption. I would say "saved = true". Again, re-read what the exert said. Plus, you can't back it up with scripture. Far too many verses that out-weigh your baptism for salvation doctrine, that speak of Faith Only.
It is 34 pages of....
1. Some who believe their works will save them or help keep them saved as opposed to...
2. Several who believe that salvation is by grace through faith and the works testify to biblical salvation...
and then you have numerous pages of..??
You cant twist logic like you can scripture, see the logical "and" and the word "is" making baptized true? :
Mark 16:16 (NKJV)
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Jabberjaw, heres something to read.
From a site: However, there are scriptural examples of people being born again before they were baptized in water. Cornelius and his friends were filled with the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues before they were baptized in water (Ac 10:44-48). Joh 14:17 records Jesus as saying that unbelievers cannot receive the Holy Ghost (see note 27 at Joh 14:17), so Cornelius and his friends must have been born again before their water baptism.
[h=3]John 14:16-17[/h]New International Version (NIV)
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[a] in you.
A non-believer does not have the Holy Spirit in and with them simultaneously, as did Cornelius and his friends.
They were saved, before they were baptized in water. I am not saying we shouldn't be baptized in water, not at all. But, being baptized in water for salvation is by no means scriptural. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, period.
To add baptism on top of that, is to add works upon the grace of God (for salvation).
From a site: However, there are scriptural examples of people being born again before they were baptized in water. Cornelius and his friends were filled with the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues before they were baptized in water (Ac 10:44-48). Joh 14:17 records Jesus as saying that unbelievers cannot receive the Holy Ghost (see note 27 at Joh 14:17), so Cornelius and his friends must have been born again before their water baptism.
[h=3]John 14:16-17[/h]New International Version (NIV)
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[a] in you.
A non-believer does not have the Holy Spirit in and with them simultaneously, as did Cornelius and his friends.
They were saved, before they were baptized in water. I am not saying we shouldn't be baptized in water, not at all. But, being baptized in water for salvation is by no means scriptural. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, period.
To add baptism on top of that, is to add works upon the grace of God (for salvation).
Paul must have been ignorant of your baptism for salvation theory, and I guess all the people that he won to the Lord by faith are cooking. Can you imagine God inspiring Paul and letting his statements make the bible if baptism is so necessary for salvation?
I THANK GOD I BAPTIZED NONE OF YOU EXCEPT........
and I WAS NOT SENT TO BAPTIZE.....
Thanks for the insult, but regardless the points of the exert still stand. Even more so, do the points on Cornelius and his friends being filled with the Holy Spirit before water baptism. A non-believer believes in Christ and is baptized into the body of Christ upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. (see 1 Corinthians 12:13)