Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[just-me]

Works of merit do not save, but good works, EPh 2:10, Matt 25; 1 Jn 3:17; 1 Jn 1:7 maintains one's salvation.

You post "Obedient works" don't maintain your salvation."

Which implies a Christian can become a disobedient, unrighteous sinner yet still be saved, which is not biblically possible for the unrighteous will be lost, 1 Cor 6:9.

As Paul tells me in Rom 6:16, one is either serving 1) sin unto death or 2 ) OBEDIENCE unto righteousness. I serve #2, obedience unto righteousness. Which do you serve?


Abraham had an obedient faith. Not a single verse saysAbrham was justified or reckoned righteous by "faith only"

Scriptures added to you comments.
Hebrews 6:1-3 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And this will we do, if God permit.

 

[notuptome]

Works of merit do not save, but good works, EPh 2:10, Matt 25; 1 Jn 3:17; 1 Jn 1:7 maintains one's salvation.

Totally false conclusion. How does one merit retaining a gift?

You post "Obedient works" don't maintain your salvation."

Which implies a Christian can become a disobedient, unrighteous sinner yet still be saved, which is not biblically possible for the unrighteous will be lost, 1 Cor 6:9.

How does one undo what God alone has done? Salvation is by the determinate will of God not of man.

As Paul tells me in Rom 6:16, one is either serving 1) sin unto death or 2 ) OBEDIENCE unto righteousness. I serve #2, obedience unto righteousness. Which do you serve?

You are serving you own self righteousness not submitting yourself to Gods righteousness.

Abraham had an obedient faith. Not a single verse saysAbrham was justified or reckoned righteous by "faith only"

You are not comprehending Abraham at all. Abraham was obedient because he believed God. Abraham never trusted in what he did but in what God said.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

True, and I am sure most all here will agree that it is obedient faith which the Lord delights in. One can only imagine what would had happened if Abraham was not obedient in His faith when he was commanded to sacrifice his son. We Christians are indeed blessed by his hearkening, as much as we are extremely blessed by the obedience of the Son.

As far back as Gen 12:1-5 cf Heb 8:11 if Abraham had disobeyed by not leaving his house, land, kindred he would have never received those promises of God.

God did not randomly choose Abraham then hope Abraham would then obey Him....."For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him." Gen 18:19.


God had foreknowledge that Abraham would obey and the last line of the verse I underlined shows that God foreknew Abraham would have a faithful obedience. Was Abraham's obedience perfect? No, Abraham was not a worker trying to merit his salvation, Rom 4:4, by perfectly keeping God's law but his faithful obedience (Rom 4:5) was sufficient enough God could accomplish His will and "bring upon Abraham that which He (God) hath spoken of him".

 

[Jabberjaw]

I see Just-Me liked this.

Yet another proof he believes one must work the commands of God to be saved.

Keep it up just-me. You claim you do not believe in works for salvation. But you just LIKED something which claims we must work for salvation. Why do you keep contradicting yourself?

Because you cannot understand the difference between righteous works, and works of merit gives you no right to attack another member, keep your argument with me, we are not done yet...

Paul never said righteous works are not required to be saved, he said to the Jews who were keeping the Law of Moses that works of merit (which WAS the Law of Moses) would not save you, but Grace through faith.

He said once faith has come there were no longer need for works:

Galatians 3:25 (NKJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

See here where the "door was opened to the Gentiles" :

Acts 14:27 (NKJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Now when they had come and gathered the church together, they reported all that God had done with them, and that He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles.

what good is a door opened to the Gentiles "if they don't go through the door"

You are clueless to what righteous work is and I feel sorry for you thinking God will save you for doing absolutely nothing to accept what is given to you.

 

[SeaBass]

You totally ignore faith.

You totally ignore the Work of Christ.

It's all about you.

And it's morbidly entertaining to watch the hoops you have to jump through to complicate an uncomplicated Gospel.

-JGIG

You do not seem to understand that salvation takes two: God and yourself. God's grace provided a pathway for you to be saved though Christ, it is up to you to take that pathway, Heb 5:9. This is why Peter told his hearers in Acts 2 to "save yourselves" and Paul told Timothy to "save thyself" for you have a role in your own salvation.

 

[SeaBass]

Nope. Trying to help grow you to maturity so that you will be able to tell the Lost about Jesus instead of tell Christians how they're not really saved.

-JGIG

Cotending for the faith is NOT sitting and doing nothing. It requires faithful diligent WORK.


You post "...so that you will be able to tell the Lost about Jesus instead of tell Christians how they're not really saved."

I posted earlier in thes thread that in the great commission Christ commmanded His disciples to go into all the world and teach the gospel to every nation, every creature. That going and teaching is a WORK. Can a Christian blantantly disobey this command and still be saved? No. Faith only says a Christian does not have to do any works to maintain his salvation else he is trying to merit his salvation. Are you trying to merit your savlation by teaching the lost? IF faith only were true, no one would be doing the WORK of an evangelist/missionary in taking the gospel to the lost and Christianity would have died out centuries ago.

 

[Jabberjaw]

lol..

is everything funny to you?

No. MsLimpits interpretation of the words have to be that way. There is no other way it could be said. by her interpretation.

So your denying that is in a nutshell what she is saying? You must agree with me then.

No, I am saying you fail to understand what she is saying, this is easily concluded by the simple fact I agree with her, and you disagree with me, therefore it is your miss understanding that is the problem, and not her interpretation of anything.

um.

Not by works of righteousness (good deeds) which we have done, But by his mercy.

Can you explain how mercy can be given when one does a work to EARN IT? Is that really showing mercy to someone?

Your not worth saving, but by his Grace he has offered it to you, all you need to do is obey the righteous commands of his son and God will give it to you.

It is still free, you cannot earn it, but you must go through the set conditions of receiving the gift...

I have no doubt a 3rd grader, if you told him I will give you a free piece of candy, all you have to do is go to the desk and take one out of the jar, and he would not feel as though he worked for that piece of candy,

It takes a twisted educated reject to come to that conclusion.

 

[SeaBass]

SeaBass, we're not 'faith only proponents'. We're 'Christ only proponents'. We believe that the forgiving, the gifting of Righteousness, and the giving of New Life ALL come from what God in Christ has done without any help from us whatsoever.

By faith, we enter into what He has already accomplished on our behalf.

Then because He lives in us, He produces His Fruit in and through us - LIVING works.

When reading the Gospel accounts, the Epistles, and the Revelation, you need to take your eyes off of YOU and put them on JESUS. The perspective change would do you good.

-JGIG

No, you all are proponents of the man-made teaching of faith only for you do not believe verses as Heb 5:9 that says Christ "... became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

As you can plainly see by reading this thread, faith only proponents accuse those who "obey Christ" as trying to merit their salvation.

 

[SeaBass]

Do you know any baptized people who aren't saved?

[rhetorical question]

-JGIG

THis reminds me, I have a thread that I have used on other forums entitled "Where are the UNbaptized Christians at in the NT?" When the church began at Acts 2 and verse 38 came into effect, there is no such thing as "unbaptized Christians" to be found.


I know of those who have been baptized in the past but since have fallen away due to their unfaithfulness to Christ.

 

[notuptome]

Has anyone ever seen a new born baby do any work?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Jabberjaw]

Now, SInce as usual. No one seems to want to comment on things I say, But only on what they want to sayl

[SUP]5 [/SUP]not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us,

1. he saved us, Past tense. It was a work which was already completed in us. So how can anyone say this is a COMMAND to do something (like mslimpit said?)

again you twist context not only of the bible but what people say, who was verse 5 written to? who was Paul talking to? it was Titus, Paul and Titus were saved (past tense), according to you, everyone is already saved (past tense)

2. It says BY HIS MERCY. Can someone show me how mercy can be earned? Is not mercy something that is done for you when you CAN NOT EARN IT?

You don't deserve to be saved, it is by Gods grace you have an opportunity (through His Son) to have mercy, your reconciliation to God comes through obedience (righteous works) to His Son, if you don't do as His Son commands you don't get Gods free gift...

 

[SeaBass]

On one hand, Your right,

But not the way you think.

It is not biblically possible that one can be born of God. Made a child of his. Given his power and his Holy Spirit. and not do work.

I rest my case. Work of some kind and at some time MUST be performed BEFORE one can enter heaven.

Where your mistake comes in is that they are saved BECAUSE of these works. This is not true. They do these works because of the aforementioned things they were given. By the power of God.

I can look at verses like Acts 2:38; Mk 16:16; Rom 10:9,10; and others where the ORDER of these verses put obedient works BEFORE salvation, not after. In Acts 2:38 for example, repent and be baptized is BEFORE remission of sins (saved). When Peter's hearers asked him what shall we do, Peter did NOT tell them "since you are now saved, repent and be baptized".

Mk 16:16 has recently been discussed and that vere has belief and baptism BEFORE 'saved' not AFTER. It's not a recognizable verse as spoken by Christ after faith only proponents get their hands on it.

lol..

Nice try.

We are saved when we call out on the name of God and ASK his forgiveness. because we trust in the work of his son.

Out of this salvation. Comes the works he CREATED us to do (eph 2: 10)

If you think you work will cause God to look highly on you and forgive you based on your work. You do not know God whatsoever

Calling upon the name of the Lord and asking for forgiveness are works, obedient works. Is one trying to merit his salvation when he does these work?


Can a Christain NOT do those good works God before ordained Christians are to walk in? No.


God forgives those that obey Him by repenting of their sins.


Lk 15:7 "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."

 

[Jabberjaw]

Has anyone ever seen a new born baby do any work?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Put a bottle to his mouth, and watch him go to work LoL.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Works of merit do not save, but good works, EPh 2:10, Matt 25; 1 Jn 3:17; 1 Jn 1:7 maintains one's salvation.

You just contradicted yourself.

On the one hand you said they do nto save.

On the other hand, You say they do save (maintain)

which is it?? You can;t have it both ways

Thats like saying I gave you this precious gift which is more precious than fine gold (as scripture calls our salvation) as a downpayment for yuo to do what I tell yuo to do. If you do not. I will take it away.

That was never a gift to begin with. It still had to be EARNED as a reward for good work which you have done.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Totally false conclusion. How does one merit retaining a gift?

How does one undo what God alone has done? Salvation is by the determinate will of God not of man.

You are serving you own self righteousness not submitting yourself to Gods righteousness.

You are not comprehending Abraham at all. Abraham was obedient because he believed God. Abraham never trusted in what he did but in what God said.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Ah yes,

Why did Noah build the ark?

He trusted God and believed him.

Why did Abraham try to sacrifice his son?

He trusted God could raise him from the dead

Why did David kill goliath?

He trusted God would have the victory, and had no trust in himself.

All these people had faith, it was their faith which saved them. If they did not have faith. THEY WOULD NOT HAVE DONE THE WORK.

Noah would never have built the ark

Abraham would never have even taken his son up the mountain

David would have ran from Goliath.

True faith produces work. But it is not the work which saved, it is the FAITH

 

[SeaBass]

Yes he does, It is the work of God we believe in the one he sent (john 6) thus you call God a liar

God does not do the work of believing. Believing is a work that God has given men to do. Those that do this work will be saved those that do not will be lost. In verses like Mk 1:15 and Acts 16:31 the verb "believe" is in the imperative mood. THis command implies that there is ability and responsiblity upon the individual to obey this command to believe. It is not a command God has to obey or is responsible for.

IF it is God's work to cause/make/force one to believe, then whose fault is it if I was an unbeliever? God's fault for failing to do this work for me.

WHo is it who brought us to repentance? Our sinful hatefull self focused selves? If you do not think this is God you have not repented. You are still focused on yourself and Not God

Each person must repent of his own sins. Again, if this is a work God forces upon men, that means if I am imepenitnet that is God's fault for failing to do this work for me.

Who gave us the law, which led us to confession? Did you do this? Did you do the convicting of yourself and cause you to admit you have sinned? Again, Your still to focused on self. Your still carnal if you think you did this work of your own power

Again, men choose to publicly confess Christ, it is nt something God forces men to do.

By you trying to avoid the fact that the works of believing, repenting and confesses have been given to men to do, you a try and say God does these works for men, when He does not.

This implies that all the unbelievers, impenitent, deniers of Christ in the world are that way due to a fault, failure upon God to do the works of belieivng repenting and confessing for them.

Actually yes he did.

No man can baptize you into the death of Christ. That was 2000 years ago. Only God has the power to take us back 2000 years and place us into his death, Again, Your still to focused on self. You prove you have not repented. And your giving the credit to man for doing the work of God. Jesus calls this blasphemy against his spirit

The Romans in chapter 6 were baptized into Christ's death a good while after Christ died.

Baptism is a literal immersion into a watery grave where God then cuts away the body of sin. Then one rises up from that watery grave to walk in newness of life. Baptism is also symbolic of Christ's death, burial and resurrection therefore one is baptized into Christ's death at baptism.

 

[notuptome]

Put a bottle to his mouth, and watch him go to work LoL.

Point being that he/she cannot get a bottle on his/her own but totally reliant upon a parent/adult for mercy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Even believing comes from God.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God.

How shall they hear except they be sent?

God by His word and by His Holy Spirit draws a man to Christ and saves that soul who is willing to submit all to Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

well I guess I will have to stop discussing with you also. It is obvious yuo have no desire to listen to trtuh.

they asked. what work musr WE DO.

Jesus answerd, IT IS THE WORK OF GOD.

You totally ignore that part of Jesus answer. thus you ignore God.

Have a nice day, And good luck with your works.

If you ever want to discuss things with an open heart and not ignoring words. let me know

You do not have the truth for me to read. All you are posting are man-made doctrines.

I posted:

Yes, they asked Jesus what work THEY do, not what work GOD will do for them.

And when they asked what work THEY are to do, Jesus did not tell them "do no works else you will be trying to earn your salvation" By your posts here, that is how you would haveanswered their question.


You had no response to this so you run away. It refutes your false notion that God does the work of believing for man.


Jesus said "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Jesus said YOU believe, YOU do the work of believing on Him.

Jn 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Jn 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

It is man's choice to believe on Him or not believe on Him. Again, if God does the work of belieivng for man thenit is God's fault and failure for all the unbelievers inthe world lfor failing to dotis ork for them.

If someone said to you "this is the work of your employer, that YOU assemble cars."

Is it the employer that assembles the cars for you or is it YOU the employee that does the work of assembling cars?

If the employer does the actual work of asembling the cars, then what does he need you for?

 

[Jabberjaw]

Point being that he/she cannot get a bottle on his/her own but totally reliant upon a parent/adult for mercy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

but what if the baby rejects the gift of the bottle, the baby must to the work of accepting the bottle given by the parent.