Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[Pumicestone]

How sad that Christians cannot even agree on the means of salvation.

What a pity the message could not have been made clear and unambiguous.

 

[notuptome]

How sad that Christians cannot even agree on the means of salvation.

What a pity the message could not have been made clear and unambiguous.

The message muddied by those who profess what they do not possess. That has been a mainstay of the devils plan from day one.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

Their "own thing" was the law, whereas righteousness is from God (Ro 1:17) not from law keeping.

Your religious persuasion is a serious truncation of the gospel of Jesus Christ.


God's righteousness (Ro 1:17) is a gift, (Ro 5:17), not a matter of "doing". . .but only a matter of receiving.

Whereas my wages are a matter of doing, they are not a matter of receiving a gift (Ro 5:17).

It's not complicated. . .

Those Jews in Rom 10 were lost for they would not obey the commands of God (not submit to the righteousness of God, instead they substituted doing God's for doing their OWN traditions.


God's righteousness is a gift that comes with CONDITIONS and working to meet those conditions do not, cannot earn the gift for those conditions are part of the free gift.

Acts 10:35 those that "worketh righteousness" are accepted with God and that working does not earn them God's free gift for that working is a condition attached to the free gift.

 

[SeaBass]

Don't forget Hezekiah 6:9:

For by grace you have been saved through faith,
but don't forget that you also gots a bunch of hoops to jump through,
& that you must square that hippopotamus rightly.

One can be saved WITHOUT "jumping through the hoops" of believing? The hoop of repenting? The hoop of confessing? The hoop of submitting to baptism for remission of sins?

 

[SeaBass]

STILL previously addressed. . .

The bible still says 'save yourselves' save thyself cleanse ourselves proving man has a role in his own salvation and he must conditionally meet that role if he expects to be saved.

 

[SeaBass]

Thats wrong and proves you know nothinng of the law.

The law gave you Gods standard of how to earn salvation. perfection. Anyone who falls short of that law is a sinner (rom 3:23) and can never do enough so called righteous deeds to get back into right standing with God.

Your problem is your suckered into legalism. right and wrong. When God said ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT. there is not enough good you can do to make up for one wrong you ever did.

No Where?

Moses declared it, And paul reiterated it.

cursed is EVERYONE who does not confirm and OBEY all the words of this law (perfection)

Nice try, but no cigar.

One cannot be saved by keeping the OT law of Moses (Gal 2:21). One is saved by obeying the gospel of Christ, Heb 5:9 and those that obey not the gospel of Christ, then God will have vengeance upon them, 2 Thess 1:8.

Obeying Christ's gospel is not called "legalism" but obeying Christ's gospel is called R-I-G-H-T-E-O-U-S-N-E-S-S

 

[notuptome]

Those Jews in Rom 10 were lost for they would not obey the commands of God (not submit to the righteousness of God, instead they substituted doing God's for doing their OWN traditions.


God's righteousness is a gift that comes with CONDITIONS and working to meet those conditions do not, cannot earn the gift for those conditions are part of the free gift.

Acts 10:35 those that "worketh righteousness" are accepted with God and that working does not earn them God's free gift for that working is a condition attached to the free gift.

A gift with conditions is not free. You do not know Gods grace so you speak from a position of utter ignorance. Shameful really when you have been admonished so many times.

Try as you may you cannot make God a liar. Gods great grace and unfathomed love makes salvation a gift to whosoever wills to receive it. Salvation and eternal life without any merit or debt to be repaid. Given as only God can give. The perfect gift if only you could understand.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

Nope. it says he is the author of salvation. Who are those who obey him? Those who are saved.

It says nothing about who is not saved, nice try again, but your off. And you did not prove me wrong.

You reverse the bible in trying to have one saved BEFORE he obeys. Thereby you try and have one saved BEFORE he OBEYS Christ in believing, repenting, confessing and being baptized...which is not biblically possible.

 

[SeaBass]

You should stop speaking, You just placed your foot in your mouth, here I will prove it




There is no difference in saying a condition of salvation. or earning salvation. both mean the same.



Noah was saved the moment he believed God. His work proceed from that faith.

You still refuse to understand that free gifts can come with conditions and meeting those conditions do not earn the free gift.

Out of my good grace I can give someone a new car. They did nothing to deserve it, I am just giving it to them. Yet to get this free car they must do the work in going to the car dealer to get the car, title and keys. Does that work earn them the car? Not in any shape,form or fashion for that work was PART of the free gift. If they accept the free gift then they must accept doing the work in going to the dealer. If they do not want to go to the dealer then that is the same as rejecting the free gift for going to the dealer is a PART of the free gift. One must accept the gift as is or he rejects it. A simple concept that the man-made faith only theology forces some to have to purposely NOT understand.

 

[SeaBass]

it is a strawman over and over again saying your not trying to earn salvation. then saying work is a condition.

It is a strawman saying one does not have a valid argument, when he has not only a valid, but scriptural argument. yet he can not prove the person wrong .

the strawman is the argument minus proof. or saying one thing, when you believe another.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/94634-free-gifts-come-conditions.html

Above is the thread I started with BIBLE examples of free gifts coming WITH conditions and men working to meet those conditions DID NOT earn the free gift. You will not find any 'straw man' in these bible examples.

 

[SeaBass]

here is your strawman.

Show one person who said God will save someone why denys him. Show me with proof. quote the post.

Any post on here that says one can be saved by "belief only", that is, saved BEFORE and WITHOUT doing the work of confession is claiming one can be saved while denying Christ.

 

[SeaBass]

The Thief on the cross is an example of Salvation in the New Testament SeaBass. Just because his receiving Salvation and entering into Heaven is not how you want it to be does not mean its not a N.T Salvation.

When Jesus Christ was born Grace entered into the picture.

John 1:17
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

John 1:14
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Grace entered into the World long before the Thief died on the cross SeaBass. Therefore he did receive Salvation just by Faith and Grace.

You can try to Work for your Salvation SeaBass and you can try to deceive others into following you but doing so is not doing the Will of the Father. Deceiving people is not the Will of the Father SeaBass. Be careful SeaBass for you might not be allowed to enter into Heaven if you keep on the road you are on.

Galatians 2:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP] knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

If we are Justified by Faith SeaBass and not by Works, why are you trying to be Justified by your Works? The Works we are to do has nothing to do with receiving or keeping our Salvation. The Works we do are to show the World we belong to Jesus Christ!

Some will lose their Salvation by the falling away of their Faith. But you do not receive faith by works, you receive Faith by listening to what the Holy Spirit says.

Works cannot keep your Faith. Faith is a belief that Jesus Christ IS God. When you stop believing then you lose your Faith and Salvation. An example of this is Judas. Judas lost his Faith that Jesus Christ was God and look what happened to him.

The thief was promised salvation while both he and Christ were under the OT law, (Heb 9:16,17). The thoef lived and died before Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38 came into effect.

Rom 10:9 ".... and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised (past tense) him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

The thief could not have the type of belief the NT requires for Christ had not yet died mush less had been raised from the dead.

Rom 6:3,4 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

NT baptism is a baptism into the death of Christ, Again, Christ had not yet even died so it was not possible for the thief to be baptized with the NT baptism.

Therefore the thief is NOT an example of NT salvation but Peter's hearers in Acts 2, the eunuch, Simon and Samaritans are examples of NT salvation........all of which were baptized.

 

[SeaBass]

One needs to rightly divide the word of truth, not pervert or twist it into something it isn't saying.
Just because the bible says that Jesus loved Lazarus, doesn't mean He was gay.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Joh 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Joh 6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
Joh 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
Joh 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Joh 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

The word, verily means, truly. Which means, that it can stand alone.
If Jesus said these statements are truth, then they don't need help from other verses to make it the whole council of God.
If they did need help to make it the whole council of God, then Jesus couldn't say what He said was a true statement.
So which is it, cherry picking for these verses or do they need the help of other verses to make them true statements?
I prefer to believe them to be true statements as they are.

Pulling Rom 10:9,10 out of the bible while ignoring all other salvic verses is NOT taking into consideration the 'whole counsel of God' but is cherry picking two verses out of God's works while ignoring all others.

Jesus said any man ''heareth his word' and 'keep his sayings' and Jesus sayings includes believing Jn 8:24; repentance, Lk 13:3.5, confession Mt 10:32,33 and baptism Mk 16:16 and not just belief and confession.

 

[SeaBass]

Those works were not done out of faith. These people are not believers.

John 6:40 - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Mt 7:21 those that DOETH the will of the Father enter the kingdom meaning those that DOETH NOT the will of the Father will not enter the kingdom...no doing=not entering the kingdom.

Jn 6:40 does not say the Father's will is to 'believe only". Adding the phrase "believe only" to the verse would contradict the verses where Jesus made repentance, confession and baptism of equal importance and necessity to salvation.

Secondly, belief is a work per Jesus own words in Jn 6:27-29.

 

[SeaBass]

A gift with conditions is not free. You do not know Gods grace so you speak from a position of utter ignorance. Shameful really when you have been admonished so many times.

Try as you may you cannot make God a liar. Gods great grace and unfathomed love makes salvation a gift to whosoever wills to receive it. Salvation and eternal life without any merit or debt to be repaid. Given as only God can give. The perfect gift if only you could understand.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Free gifts come with conditions all the time.

 

[notuptome]

You still refuse to understand that free gifts can come with conditions and meeting those conditions do not earn the free gift.

You do not know the person and nature of God. God does not give gifts like men give gifts. God loves with a love that is far greater than any love we know. Further there is nothing you can give to God. All things already are Gods things. Even you are Gods creation to do with as pleases Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

the promise was given to Abraham before he was circumcised and before he had any children - what then, the promise was null and void until "sometime later" ? Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness long before his faith caused him to do any tangible work.

you're "floundering" mr. bass.

Luke 24:47 and Acts 2:38 say exactly nothing as to when forgiveness, reconciliation with God and redemption into righteousness came to earth. Christ forgave sin on earth, long before He took up the cross, and without requiring even repentance (see: Mark 2:1-12 -- When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” ) -- this is not forgiveness of sin through or under the law of Moses and it was granted when He saw their faith - not their baptism, not their repentance, not their good deeds - the paralyzed man didn't even bring himself to Christ but was brought.



the context is that everyone has sinned and there is no distinction between the circumcised followers of law and the uncircumcised who have never so much as helped a little old lady across the agora (Romans chapter 3). the context is that Abraham was declared righteous before he had done any "work" or performed any sign that separated himself from other peoples - but exactly when he believed God (Romans chapter 4) so that the children of God are not those who are children by doing the works of any law or performing the rituals of a religion, but by faith (Romans chapter 3-4). this is clearly and explicitly spelled out for us. in order that the ungodly might be justified by His blood. in order that those who believe on Him and His redemption might be declared clean by their faith, brought into His household as free men rather than slaves, and made able to then take part in the good works He has beforehand prepared.

you have either not read Romans, or you have been blinded and your ears made dull when you did. the promise is by faith. the reward is by faith. the adoption is by faith. the inheritance is by faith. the gift is by faith. salvation is worked by God, and given according to faith. those who are redeemed are not justified by further actions of the flesh; they are justified and receive the seal of their redemption when they hear the Word and believe. (Ephesians 1)




you're not even making sense anymore.
this is darkness. God has promised that if you believe and put your trust in Him - not in yourself, and not in your works - He will take you out of darkness and into light.

we have been placed into the light because we believe and hold to this promise - that He will do this work in us - and so we remain in the light. salvation is into and unto light, into and unto good works, by the work of God - not by bringing yourself into light, but by being brought into it. not by doing works, but by believing - and so being transformed and renewed into a new creature that in fact does do works.

in Romans 4 Paul specifically and emphatically declares that the ungodly are redeemed apart from works, solely by trusting in the mercy and promise of God.
if it were any way otherwise, post could say "i do righteous works and you do not, therefore i am saved and you are not" -- and it would no longer be God who gives mercy to whom He will, but post who judges and salvation an earned paycheck having nothing to do with the kindness of God, and post would be the one who is to be praised, for all the good things that post did.
that is evil and vanity and blasphemy against the Lord, who died for mr. fish and for post while we were ungodly in order to reconcile us to peace with God, if we would just believe and place our trust in HIM and not in ourselves.

perfect love casts out fear; but this dark teaching in you would have us terrified that we are not good enough. this is a thing you should lay at His feet, so that you look for His mercy - so that you might receive it.

Gen 18:19 "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him."

God FOREKNEW Abraham would be obedient in commanding his children and household after him thereby God MAY bring upon Abraham those promises. Without obedience to God those promises would not have come about. In Gen 12 if AAbrha had disobeyed God in leaving his house land and kindred to go to a land God would show him those promies would never have happened unto Abraham.

Rom 4:17 "(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were."

God hath made (past tense) Abraham a father of many nations even though Isaac was not yet born. God's foreknowledge and promises are certain that some times they are spoken of having already occurred, that is, God some times "calleth those things which be not as though they were". Again, if Abraham had not obeyed back in Gen 12 none of this would have happened to Abraham.



No verse declares Abraham righteous BEFORE he did any righteous works. You are trying to make one a slave to righteousness when he has NEVER done any righteousness.


Are you saying God is "making no sense" when he "before ordained" that Christian are to walk in good works?????

The problem the faith only advocates have here is that one who becomes a Christian MUST do good works else be lost meaning those good works maintains the Christians salvation which flies in the face of the man-made doctrine that "faith only" is what saves and "faith only" maintains one's salvation.


(Lk 24:47 as the thief are NOT examples of NT salvation. The OT law of Moses was still in effect when these events occurred.)

 

[notuptome]

Free gifts come with conditions all the time.

Not the ones that God gives and especially the one that only He can give. Grace is about a love that is greater than all your sins.

Your earthly philosophy is corrupted by sin and is unable to know Gods pure and holy gift of eternal life given without expectation of repayment.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

You do not know the person and nature of God. God does not give gifts like men give gifts. God loves with a love that is far greater than any love we know. Further there is nothing you can give to God. All things already are Gods things. Even you are Gods creation to do with as pleases Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Those that refuse to understand that God's free gift of salvation comes with conditions are the one's lacking knowledge of God and His free gift of salvation. Who will UNconditionally be saved, that is, who will saved WITHOUT CONDITIONALLY believing, repenting, confessing and submitting to baptism? No one, for one must meet each of these condtions to be saved and working to meet those conditions DO NOT, CANNOT earn the free gift but they are PART OF the offer of the free gift.

 

[SeaBass]

Believe only in Christ for salvation (not believe only in the sense that we never repented) which we won't do unless we first repent. No contradiction at all. Just you continuing to misunderstand.

Why do you continue to reverse the scriptural order of repent and believe? Mere "mental assent" belief followed by self moral reformation does not equate to repent and believe the gospel.

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Belief only in that sense is not saving belief in Christ. The demons "believe" that "there is one God" but they don't repent and believe the gospel. By the time that you reverse the scriptural order of repent and believe to be saved, you have the belief of demons joined to self moral reformation, which is not what it means to repent and believe the gospel in order to be saved.

Jesus did not say what you are saying. Jesus did not give us a 4 step check list in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26. Those who believe have already repented and belief and confession are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10). Water baptism FOLLOWS repent and believe the gospel/believes unto righteousness/confession made unto salvation (Acts 10:43-47).

I NEVER said that repentance is not necessary for salvation BUT I don't place repent after believe in Christ for salvation. We are not saved by belief only in the sense that you are talking about, believe but never repented, which is an oxymoron. We believe only in Christ for salvation. We believe/trust in CHRIST ALONE for salvation. If we believe/trust in works to save us, then we never repented and we don't believe the gospel.

Believes unto righteousness/confession is made unto salvation - chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10) and this is BEFORE water baptism, even in your 4 step check list.

The word of faith is in our mouth AND in our heart and not just one or the other. Not in our heart only, so it's not belief only in that sense. I already explained John 12:42. According to your interpretation of John 12:42, Peter denied Christ three times so he will be denied by the Father. So then Peter is not in heaven?

For those who truly believe and are saved, they repented and the word of faith is in their mouth and in their heart - TOGETHER and they do not deny the facts of the gospel. You make this soooo complicated.

Who confesses Jesus? - BELIEVERS. Who denies Jesus? - UNBELIEVERS. That is the whole point of what is said in Matthew 10:32-33. Also, the word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. You continue to overlook this.

No, Jesus did not "patch together" these 4 steps in that order with the same meaning and interpretation that you give them. Your 4 step plan of salvation is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics.

No He did not. Those who confess Christ throughout their lifetime are already saved. Those who deny Christ throughout their lifetime are lost. There is a difference between believes unto righteousness/confession made unto salvation upon conversion and confessing Christ throughout our lifetime because we are already saved. Those who believe and are saved have already repented and have already received remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18). You just can't accept that Christ is the all sufficient means of our salvation so you add supplements to the gospel in order to make salvation based on your works. You want credit for salvation.

Again, keep in mind that "faith only" - per James - that you continue to allude to is not genuine faith, but an empty profession of faith, a dead faith and is not what I'm teaching saves. Those who believe and are saved have already repented. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart together, so it's not one or the other. Those who believe and are saved afterwards get water baptized. Your "add 3 additional steps to becoming saved after one believes" plan of salvation rips the words of Jesus apart in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6;29,40,47; 11:25,26. A saved believer is not an impenitent, denier of Christ. You still just DON'T GET IT.

The devils believe "mental assent" that there is "one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation which demonstrates that they never repented and the word of faith is not in their mouth or in there heart. Of course they won't submit to baptism because they reject Christ as their Savior. Baptism is in regards to the remission of sins received upon repentance/belief (Acts 3:19; 10:43). Faith is implied in genuine repentance, two sides to the same coin.

Saving belief, which is "trust and reliance" (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ for salvation that refuses to ever do what Christ said is an OXYMORON. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced/substantiated/confirmed by good works (James 2:14-24). You have a terrible time understanding this balance. Those who trust in works for salvation and not in Christ alone still need to repent and believe the gospel.

Very simple question: can one be saved who does not repent?
(A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice.)