Salvation, Works, The Spirit, and The Bible.

[dcontroversal]

not saying you did, just asking you a question. say someone, say they are even a spiritual mentor to you turns from the faith and rejects Christ, does that mean they were never saved? if so how could they have ever given any spiritual advice? this happens all the time in churches.

At the end of the day I can only chunk it up to the two ideas given.....People who are genuinely saved by faith may fall away due to circumstance such as the death of a loved one, disease, questioning God as to why etc.....people who fall under this grouping fit the first aspect given below and then some who were never saved go out from us because they never were of us.....I will use a personal friend of mine as an example....His name is Darryl and I went to the seminary with him...He was raised in church, saved, immersed, called to preach, educated and without a doubt has given ample proof to his salvation....married, 2 kids, pastored churches faithfully......his wife cheated on him, left him and in bitterness he quit preaching, going to church and as far as I know is still out of church......regardless of his failure and walking away in bitterness JESUS cannot deny himself and remains faithful to his word, his promises and his power to keep Darryl as a saved child of God because the righteousness of Christ has been imputed unto Darryl's account by faith and he has been born of incorruptable seed.....the flip side of the coin....I have known people who came to church with the mindset of "what can you do for me".....they have never shown except for Easter, Christmas and pot lucks, they never witness, they never understand the word, and when the rubber meets the road they fade off to never be heard from again......NO ROOT.......at the end of the day the only one who can 100% know if they are or are not is GOD........

If we believe not (after belief) he abides faithful because he cannot deny himself.......<--written to believers

 

[wanderer6059]

At the end of the day I can only chunk it up to the two ideas given.....People who are genuinely saved by faith may fall away due to circumstance such as the death of a loved one, disease, questioning God as to why etc.....people who fall under this grouping fit the first aspect given below and then some who were never saved go out from us because they never were of us.....I will use a personal friend of mine as an example....His name is Darryl and I went to the seminary with him...He was raised in church, saved, immersed, called to preach, educated and without a doubt has given ample proof to his salvation....married, 2 kids, pastored churches faithfully......his wife cheated on him, left him and in bitterness he quit preaching, going to church and as far as I know is still out of church......regardless of his failure and walking away in bitterness JESUS cannot deny himself and remains faithful to his word, his promises and his power to keep Darryl as a saved child of God because the righteousness of Christ has been imputed unto Darryl's account by faith and he has been born of incorruptable seed.....the flip side of the coin....I have known people who came to church with the mindset of "what can you do for me".....they have never shown except for Easter, Christmas and pot lucks, they never witness, they never understand the word, and when the rubber meets the road they fade off to never be heard from again......NO ROOT.......at the end of the day the only one who can 100% know if they are or are not is GOD........

If we believe not (after belief) he abides faithful because he cannot deny himself.......<--written to believers

lets look at this from the parable of the sower, the last people you talked about would be the ones picked away by the crows and burnt up by their shallow roots. But, your friend Darryl, could he not be represented by the one choked by sin(unforgiveness)

my question would be were any people in the sowers parable saved?

 

[dcontroversal]

lets look at this from the parable of the sower, the last people you talked about would be the ones picked away by the crows and burnt up by their shallow roots. But, your friend Darryl, could he not be represented by the one choked by sin(unforgiveness)

my question would be were any people in the sowers parable saved?

My view on the sower is a little different than most......I believe it accurately describes the following truth as I can think of verses to support this view....4 different possible responses to the word of God

a. Most the word leads to no conversion (Satan taking the word before conversion) <--broad and wide and most go this route
b. Saved no deep root (immature in the word) easily offended falls away yet saved
c. Saved yet no real transformation as described in Romans 12 (worldly) chokes out the possible growth and fruit yet saved
d. Saved, growth and maturity due to the word and transformation, produces great fruit saved

The bible speaks to all 4 above, there were immature believers, believers that were worldly, believers that were on fire, fake believers like JUDAS who was never saved, churches that were doing a plethora of works yet had lost their first love, churches that were luke warm and not refreshing, churches that were poor yet faithful, and the difference is that the lost will be judged by the books of the law, found guilty and cast....believers of every gambit will be rewarded for service or a lack thereof....we know the bible teaches crowns to be won, places of rulership, the ruled, gold, silver and precious stones, works of wood, hay and stubble being burnt yet the believers are still saved etc......

The above is my stance on the parable of the sower.......

 

[wanderer6059]

My view on the sower is a little different than most......I believe it accurately describes the following truth as I can think of verses to support this view....4 different possible responses to the word of God

a. Most the word leads to no conversion (Satan taking the word before conversion) <--broad and wide and most go this route
b. Saved no deep root (immature in the word) easily offended falls away yet saved
c. Saved yet no real transformation as described in Romans 12 (worldly) chokes out the possible growth and fruit yet saved
d. Saved, growth and maturity due to the word and transformation, produces great fruit saved

The bible speaks to all 4 above, there were immature believers, believers that were worldly, believers that were on fire, fake believers like JUDAS who was never saved, churches that were doing a plethora of works yet had lost their first love, churches that were luke warm and not refreshing, churches that were poor yet faithful, and the difference is that the lost will be judged by the books of the law, found guilty and cast....believers of every gambit will be rewarded for service or a lack thereof....we know the bible teaches crowns to be won, places of rulership, the ruled, gold, silver and precious stones, works of wood, hay and stubble being burnt yet the believers are still saved etc......

The above is my stance on the parable of the sower.......

would i be right in assuming you believe romans 6:23 is talking about one caught in the sin nature or someone who is a true sinner not saved, and not a saint that is just carnal?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Can you explain how the Galatians can go back to the law for justification and continue to be heirs of the promises no matter what, despite the fact that Paul said they would not?

In my opinion the kind of justifying you are talking about the same thing as
Romans 12:1-2
King James Version(KJV)

1.)I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2.)And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Can you explain how the Galatians can go back to the law for justification and continue to be heirs of the promises no matter what, despite the fact that Paul said they would not?

Whether It’s salvation or conditional sanctification It’s still grace through faith.

If a person were to receive grace during their walk they will receive grace through faith and If they are trying to walk without faith they have fallen from grace and back to the merit system.

But once the person receives salvation they are saved and SEALED but If they go back to the merit system as for as conditional sanctification they will not receive any rewards yet their soul Is saved.

 

[dcontroversal]

would i be right in assuming you believe romans 6:23 is talking about one caught in the sin nature or someone who is a true sinner not saved, and not a saint that is just carnal?

The context right before 6:23 sets forth the contradiction.....this accurately describes the difference between a lost sinner and a saved child of God......

SIN pays wages---->death/seperation

Eternal life is given as a gift and not earned or paid for in wages earned

 

[wanderer6059]

The context right before 6:23 sets forth the contradiction.....this accurately describes the difference between a lost sinner and a saved child of God......

SIN pays wages---->death/seperation

Eternal life is given as a gift and not earned or paid for in wages earned

you should check out some videos of Micheal Todd, his grace like a flood sermons are something else right now. lot like what we are talking about.

what do you think of this understanding though.

sin brings about physical death in both believer and sinner alike, the only difference is that the believer is save from that true death by the imputed righteousness of Christ.

 

[dcontroversal]

you should check out some videos of Micheal Todd, his grace like a flood sermons are something else right now. lot like what we are talking about.

what do you think of this understanding though.

sin brings about physical death in both believer and sinner alike, the only difference is that the believer is save from that true death by the imputed righteousness of Christ.

Sin brought forth both spiritual death and physical death (ADAM)

but there is a wrench in the physical death aspect, which tells me it is more spiritual in scope....NOT all will die physically, but we will ALL be changed....

Then which which are alive and remain unto the body presence of Christ.........

Enoch, Elijah.....etc......

It is appointed unto men ONCE to die and then face judgment <---notice the one word that is missing that most add.....the word ALL.........

and for sure I agree with the bolded....

Blessed is he that hath part in the 1st resurrection upon which the 2nd death shall have no power.

 

[wanderer6059]

Sin brought forth both spiritual death and physical death (ADAM)

but there is a wrench in the physical death aspect, which tells me it is more spiritual in scope....NOT all will die physically, but we will ALL be changed....

Then which which are alive and remain unto the body presence of Christ.........

Enoch, Elijah.....etc......

It is appointed unto men ONCE to die and then face judgment <---notice the one word that is missing that most add.....the word ALL.........

and for sure I agree with the bolded....

Blessed is he that hath part in the 1st resurrection upon which the 2nd death shall have no power.

i never thought of it like that...

i always though that every man would taste the first death. (the two in bold being the two witnesses in revelation)

my question on the though of how one can have confidence in God to sanctify them when they don't have confidence in their salvation. honestly i see it as a trap of the devil himself to keep believes in fear instead of conquering of His kingdom.

honestly i think most believers are cowering afraid that the gates of hell are going to open up and swallow them, when in reality Christ said don't worry, i want you to kick those gates down and raise hell.

 

[dcontroversal]

i never thought of it like that...

i always though that every man would taste the first death. (the two in bold being the two witnesses in revelation)

my question on the though of how one can have confidence in God to sanctify them when they don't have confidence in their salvation. honestly i see it as a trap of the devil himself to keep believes in fear instead of conquering of His kingdom.

honestly i think most believers are cowering afraid that the gates of hell are going to open up and swallow them, when in reality Christ said don't worry, i want you to kick those gates down and raise hell.

My view is based upon the fact that most do not understand that sanctification is dual in usage and application....

1st application is positionally in Christ eternally <---this is based upon being saved, justified (rendered innocent from a legal standpoint) and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise unto the day of redemption (when the body is resurrected or changed at the last day)

2nd application which many conflate with the 1st application is the aspect of being sanctified in our daily life which is based upon growth, maturity and the transformation which takes place as described in Romans 12....the word transformed comes from the same Greek word that metamorphosis I.E> we change outwardly because of the change inwardly by the word of God applied in our life.....this process is subject to successes, failures and set backs based upon the level of word and teaching one receives, faithfulness, intent etc......

MANY start their walk, fail and then due to immaturity and doubt because of said failure begin to doubt their salvation or their position in Christ which is actually secure based upon Christ, his power and his word/promises....

 

[wanderer6059]

My view is based upon the fact that most do not understand that sanctification is dual in usage and application....

1st application is positionally in Christ eternally <---this is based upon being saved, justified (rendered innocent from a legal standpoint) and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise unto the day of redemption (when the body is resurrected or changed at the last day)

2nd application which many conflate with the 1st application is the aspect of being sanctified in our daily life which is based upon growth, maturity and the transformation which takes place as described in Romans 12....the word transformed comes from the same Greek word that metamorphosis I.E> we change outwardly because of the change inwardly by the word of God applied in our life.....this process is subject to successes, failures and set backs based upon the level of word and teaching one receives, faithfulness, intent etc......

MANY start their walk, fail and then due to immaturity and doubt because of said failure begin to doubt their salvation or their position in Christ which is actually secure based upon Christ, his power and his word/promises....

thats always what i have pulled from scripture. actually i think that is a perfect breakdown.

what would you think of this the first application applys to the human spirit at new birth, the second application is though life in Christ and is focused on the mind(or soul) and one could say that in the resurrection one goes through bodily sanctification.

 

[dcontroversal]

thats always what i have pulled from scripture. actually i think that is a perfect breakdown.

what would you think of this the first application applys to the human spirit at new birth, the second application is though life in Christ and is focused on the mind(or soul) and one could say that in the resurrection one goes through bodily sanctification.

I would break it down the following way.....

a. Agree with first point...it is the spirit that has been born again of incorruptable seed by the word of God and Spirit of God, it does not sin, always seeks to do right and like Jesus said is indeed willing.

b. 2nd point....it is obviously applied unto the mind (transforming the mind by the word of God where we make decisions) This is also identified as a renewed mind as well....and this in turn allows for a greater control of the body....I.E. One who is saved and being transformed sins less (willingly and not without sin perse, but less sin) and they will walk more faithfully before the Lord and become more sanctified as they mature in Christ.

c. The Body can be sanctified to the point that God can use us as a living sacrifice, yet is still dead in sin and needs to be changed at the last day in the resurrection/change

Interesting concept...do a word study on the comparison between this body of flesh and the resurrected or changed body from the Greek.....reveals awesome truth <---a body of power, celestial, ethereal, astral, heavenly as opposed to weak and fleshly......

 

[carl11]

So Peter was not a true believer?

How about David surely he wasn't a true believer just look at what he did with Bathsheba I mean lets just look at how he broke the ten commandments. The point is that yes a true believer can fall into sin there is no doubt in that because we still live in a fleshly body that will lust after sin. [Rom. 7:18]

But the moment God has saved us we are a new creature in Christ as depicted in 2Cor. 5:17. As far as person that has truly become saved by God they will not revert back to their old ways, they will not depart from the Lord, their thoughts and everything is on the Lord. [Ps. 1:2]

Think about the wheat and tares how a tare is almost identical to the wheat and yet God says let them be, let them be, let them grow together and on Judgment day and I will destroy them. Think about how Satan minions are they come with a Gospel that is almost identical to the Gospel of the Bible and yet it is not. These people who are tares who are minions of Satan can have a outward appearance of a believer and yet they can revert back in their own ways or as some would say they can lose their salvation. [Mt. 23:27]

 

[Ralph-]

b. Saved no deep root (immature in the word) easily offended falls away yet saved

The word does not continue to abide in them. Therefore, they do not abide in the Father and the Son. They are lost.


23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father."-1 John 2:23-24


The condition for abiding in the Son and the Father is that the word you heard abides in you. The 2nd type of soil represents the person who does not continue in the word.

c. Saved yet no real transformation as described in Romans 12 (worldly) chokes out the possible growth and fruit yet saved

They are saved because the word of God continues to abide in them, it just gets choked out by the cares and loves of this world. They struggle with sin but they continue to believe.

Your struggle with sin doesn't cause you to lose your salvation. Abandoning your trust in the word of God does. The 3rd type of soil retained the word and, therefore, remained saved despite it's struggle with the thorns of this life.

 

[Ralph-]

If we believe not (after belief) he abides faithful because he cannot deny himself.......<--written to believers

The person who does not continue to believe after salvation is no longer a part of 'himself' (Christ):


"If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father."-1 John 2:24


They did not continue in the word, therefore, they do not continue in Christ, and so Christ is under no obligation to not deny them--they do not belong to him anymore. He can, and will deny them. The person he will not deny is the person who does not deny him. They may struggle in sin but as long as they don't deny Christ they will not be denied by him.

 

[Ralph-]

Why are you equating inheritance with salvation? Inheritance is not salvation. We labor for inheritance and rewards. We do not labor for salvation.

Because the Bible does:


"14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."-Galatians 3:13-14

"29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise."-Galatians 3:29

"25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life."-1 John 2:25


The promise we receive is the promise of the inheritance. You have to belong to Christ to be in line for the promise of the inheritance. If you stop trusting in the word of the gospel and go back to the law for justification, or just stop trusting in Christ and go back to the world, the word stops being in you and you stop being in Christ (1 John 2:23-24) and you are no longer in line for the inheritance, eternal life. Only those who belong to Christ are in line for the inheritance of eternal life and all the benefits that go with that.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are saved by grace through faith, this happens by believing with the heart and confessing the Lord Christ Jesus.

Works are simple the evidence of living faith, and are not something you can produce on your own, you need the Spirit of God because you can't produce the works without Him.

There is the person in the trinity called the Holy Spirit, He is still active like in the book of acts today, He never stopped.

90% of bible translations today are all well and good, and saying one translation alone is the only way is kinda ignorant.

that is what i believe... what do you think lol

I agree with everything except your last statement, You can not lose something you could never earn to begin with If it was possible, (to lose it) it means you had to earn it to begin with.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Blasphemy Against the Holy Spirit, that is the only way to loss it. basically you have to completely renounce Christ and then actively persecute His church till the day you die.

If you did this, you would be termed an antichrist, And john makes it clear in his epistle. These people were never saved, In fact, they left to reveal the fact they were never saved to begin with (were never of us)

God knows us from birth to death before we are born, He is not going to make a mistake and save someone he knows will turn against him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ok, simple question.

if a believer come to the point were they genuinely no longer believe in Christ, and confess He is not God, but just man or even to go as far as call Him a con are they still saved?

Simple answer...

1 John 2:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[SUP][d][/SUP] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. [SUP]19 [/SUP]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[SUP][e][/SUP] know all things. [SUP]21 [/SUP]I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Can you explain how the Galatians can go back to the law for justification and continue to be heirs of the promises no matter what, despite the fact that Paul said they would not?

They were never saved, Their faith always was in law. thats why they returned, as a dog, they returned to their vomit. Why were they still like dogs? Because they were never made into a new creation,