Satan the Scapegoat

[Tintin]

Good gravy! What a mess.

JWs read an altered (corrupted) Bible and even then they generally don't read it for themselves. They're told what to believe and think. Mormons seem to hold the Book of Mormon at the same level as the Bible and where the latter disagrees, the choose to follow the BoM. They believe all kinds of non-Christian crap, so they're not a good example either.

And yes. We're told to love our enemies, but how about some context? We're to love our (human) enemies. We're to love them because they're oppressed/possessed/influenced by ungodly spirits and are blinded to God's truth. Our human enemies aren't our enemies. Satan and his ilk, who work in the background, are our enemies.

 

[Willie-T]

God told us to love fellow human beings who might be against us. I think you will find that Satan is not a human being.... WHATEVER he/it actually is.

 

[shotgunner]

I've never seen God as using Satan to do his will. It often seems to me that some Christians treat God as if he and the devil are in cahoots to bring man to salvation, or at least to the idea that he needs salvation.

Look at The story of Adam and Eve in this manner. God made man and placed him in a near replica of Heaven. Sort of like if I had a son and built him a house just as nice as mine, only better suited to his needs.

The question is did God use Satan to lead man to salvation. I say that without the interference of Satan man wouldn't need salvation. Then the question is didn't God know man would sin. I say yes but he had a plan all along to fix it. After all Jesus is the lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world.


Think of it like this. When we have children, don't we know that they will make mistakes and experience grief and sorrow? Yes, of coarse we do. Is it our will that they experience grief and sorrow, even though we know that they will. No, we don't want them to experience any hardships. I see God in this manner. God knew man would sin and had a plan to fix it before he ever created man, but it wasn't ever his will for man to sin. God didn't use Satan to bring about his will, He was just so far ahead that Satan didn't matter.

God had to know that a man created with free will would sin. In fact, the only way to make a man with free will is to give him a choice. Love and obedience can't exist without the ability to rebel and hate. Maybe that's the reason God didn't destroy Satan, man needed a choice, but God always wanted man to make the right choice, to choose him.

 

[Tintin]

I've never seen God as using Satan to do his will. It often seems to me that some Christians treat God as if he and the devil are in cahoots to bring man to salvation, or at least to the idea that he needs salvation.

Look at The story of Adam and Eve in this manner. God made man and placed him in a near replica of Heaven. Sort of like if I had a son and built him a house just as nice as mine, only better suited to his needs.

The question is did God use Satan to lead man to salvation. I say that without the interference of Satan man wouldn't need salvation. Then the question is didn't God know man would sin. I say yes but he had a plan all along to fix it. After all Jesus is the lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world.


Think of it like this. When we have children, don't we know that they will make mistakes and experience grief and sorrow? Yes, of coarse we do. Is it our will that they experience grief and sorrow, even though we know that they will. No, we don't want them to experience any hardships. I see God in this manner. God knew man would sin and had a plan to fix it before he ever created man, but it wasn't ever his will for man to sin. God didn't use Satan to bring about his will, He was just so far ahead that Satan didn't matter.

God had to know that a man created with free will would sin. In fact, the only way to make a man with free will is to give him a choice. Love and obedience can't exist without the ability to rebel and hate. Maybe that's the reason God didn't destroy Satan, man needed a choice, but God always wanted man to make the right choice, to choose him.

Have you ever read the Book of Job? As for the rest of your post, most of it is very good and I would agree with. Still, there's something of a mystery to God and how He operates in His Creation.

 

[shotgunner]

Have you ever read the Book of Job? As for the rest of your post, most of it is very good and I would agree with. Still, there's something of a mystery to God and how He operates in His Creation.

Yes, I've read Job.
First you must remember that God didn't afflict Job, Satan did. Now most will say that God allowed it, yes that's true but I say only because Job allowed it.

I many not change your mind but possibly I'll give you some things to think about. I'm going by memory here so take that into consideration but I'll try to capture the high points.

point 1
God called Job upright and perfect. Does that mean that Job never sinned and allowed a way for Satan to destroy him, not at all. To be upright and perfect before God simply means that he upheld the covenant. Think about Abraham and all he did that we would consider wrong, yet God considered him upright and perfect(justified). Job simply kept his covenant with God. We don't know all that covenant contained but it must have preserved his life since God told Satan not to kill him.

Point 2
Satan came to God and God asked him if he was considering his servant Job. Satan asked God to remove the hedge of protection from around Job. Now most read this to say that God removed that hedge and gave Job to Satan. That may not have been the case at all. All God said to Satan is behold, he is in your hand. Behold doesn't mean I'm giving him to you, all it means is look and see. Let's just suppose that Job had done something to open a door himself. Wouldn't God tell even Satan the truth when asked? He did just that when he said look and see, he is in your hand.

point 3
What did Job do to open the door to Satan. He made sacrifices for his children because he was in fear that they had sinned. The key here is the phrase, "thus did Job continually". In other words Job never had any faith that the sacrifices worked, he continued in fear making the same sacrifices for the same sin over and over. We know he was in fear because he later says" the thing I greatly feared has come upon me".

I submit that Job opened the door to Satan by being in fear and God simply told Satan the truth about the situation when asked . It's just another and perhaps interesting way to look at the story of Job.

 

[shotgunner]

Concerning God allowing what we allow, do you remember Jesus saying "whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven, and whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven." God has given us free will and he will allow into our lives what we allow. However when we decide that we won't allow some evil in our lives all of Heaven is standing with us in the battle.

 

[Tintin]

Yes, I've read Job.
First you must remember that God didn't afflict Job, Satan did. Now most will say that God allowed it, yes that's true but I say only because Job allowed it.

I many not change your mind but possibly I'll give you some things to think about. I'm going by memory here so take that into consideration but I'll try to capture the high points.

point 1
God called Job upright and perfect. Does that mean that Job never sinned and allowed a way for Satan to destroy him, not at all. To be upright and perfect before God simply means that he upheld the covenant. Think about Abraham and all he did that we would consider wrong, yet God considered him upright and perfect(justified). Job simply kept his covenant with God. We don't know all that covenant contained but it must have preserved his life since God told Satan not to kill him.

Point 2
Satan came to God and God asked him if he was considering his servant Job. Satan asked God to remove the hedge of protection from around Job. Now most read this to say that God removed that hedge and gave Job to Satan. That may not have been the case at all. All God said to Satan is behold, he is in your hand. Behold doesn't mean I'm giving him to you, all it means is look and see. Let's just suppose that Job had done something to open a door himself. Wouldn't God tell even Satan the truth when asked? He did just that when he said look and see, he is in your hand.

point 3
What did Job do to open the door to Satan. He made sacrifices for his children because he was in fear that they had sinned. The key here is the phrase, "thus did Job continually". In other words Job never had any faith that the sacrifices worked, he continued in fear making the same sacrifices for the same sin over and over. We know he was in fear because he later says" the thing I greatly feared has come upon me".

I submit that Job opened the door to Satan by being in fear and God simply told Satan the truth about the situation when asked . It's just another and perhaps interesting way to look at the story of Job.

Very good. I'm glad you've read the Book of Job. God allowed Satan to use Job, but Job didn't allow it. The Bible doesn't say Job did anything to deserve what happened to him (anything more than anyone else). Job offered sacrifices on behalf of his children because he was the priest/head of the family. Not because he lived in fear that they had sinned against God. It was a regular practice, around the time of Abraham, to offer animal sacrifices for the remission of sins etc. But animal sacrifices had to be practiced regularly, only Jesus, the Lamb of God could be the ultimate sacrifice for once and for all time. I believe you're reading things into the Book of Job that just aren't there.

 

[shotgunner]

Very good. I'm glad you've read the Book of Job. God allowed Satan to use Job, but Job didn't allow it. The Bible doesn't say Job did anything to deserve what happened to him (anything more than anyone else). Job offered sacrifices on behalf of his children because he was the priest/head of the family. Not because he lived in fear that they had sinned against God. It was a regular practice, around the time of Abraham, to offer animal sacrifices for the remission of sins etc. But animal sacrifices had to be practiced regularly, only Jesus, the Lamb of God could be the ultimate sacrifice for once and for all time. I believe you're reading things into the Book of Job that just aren't there.

I'm not saying that Job deserved what happened to him any more than anyone who lives in a fallen world deserves an attack by Satan. Just take note that Job made the same sacrifices continually without even knowing for sure that his children had sinned. Notice he said they may have sinned. That doesn't follow the OT example of sacrifice.

Now when we say God allowed it remember, God doesn't say that he's handing Job over to Satan. God just says behold, or look and see, he is in your hand.

I suppose it's a different way of looking at things from some Christians. I personally don't believe that God ever wants the bad things that happen to us to happen. Yes, God allows it, but he allows free will. We see many atrocities today that I don't believe are God's will, but he allows it because he allows free will. If everything that happens to us were God's will, then Jesus wouldn't have told us to pray that God's will be done on earth, as it is in Heaven. In Heaven God's will is perfectly carried out but he has given the Earth to man until it's time to take complete control over it again.

 

[atwhatcost]

What do we really know about Satan? During a bible discussion at church, the topic was on bad spirits, demons and such. Teacher said that the Devil was an enemy of God. I asked if Satan was our enemy also. Teacher said, yes.
My response was that God tells us to love our enemies. The room got very quite. As I see it, God used Satan. The plan of salvation requires Satan to play his part beginning with the Garden of Eden.
Who is this Satan. Satan knows everything. Why would he rebel knowing there is a Hell to go to.
Was hell invented already when he rebelled.
Adam sinned without the devil guiding him. Which means we can not blame the devil for all our sins.
Some sins we cause upon ourselves.
Our life is merely a theater with all the right characters in place.
Satan is going to hell and we are suppose to hate a condemned man ( or whatever he is). Besides, the devil can not harm you if you are wearing the armor of Christ.
They say to be in God's presence is the glory of heaven. Well Satan was there and he did not think so.
I guess when you are that far up the latter, you see things different.
What's wrong with this picture?

This is kind of like someone giving a lesson on E = MC^2 to a physics class, and the person giving the lesson is talking about "Energy equals Mass times 10000 years, since a century squared is 10000 years." While the lecturer is quite proud of himself for figuring out what Einstein is explaining with this theory of relativity, the students in the class are completely baffled at how he got 10000 years out of that theory.

What's missing is you don't know the basics but you're proudly showing people who do that you don't and thinking you're doing well. Learn the basics before trying to pull it apart, because you should be embarrassed, not proud of this. I'd explain, line by line, exactly where you got it wrong, but you are so far away from reality, you wouldn't understand that either.

 

[atwhatcost]

Your questions display a complete lack of knowledge regarding who Satan is, his history as found in the Bible, who God is, and what "rebellion" really means. We can't begin to set your perceptions aright where you're at right now.

Suffice to say, we know a lot about Satan, and I'd say the reason your class got "very quiet" with your statement that we "are to love our enemies" in referencing Satan is because you don't know anything about him. It is dangerous to speak from little knowledge.

Satan rebelled because he thought he was "more fair" -- beautiful, intelligent, etc. -- than God. He wanted the power of God without the responsibility of giving His creation unquestioned, unconditional love. And you are wrong about Adam sinning without Satan guiding him. Satan (the serpent) deceived Eve, but Adam willing followed. So our sins are the direct result of Satan's rebellion, Eve's deception, and Adam's sin.

No, hell wasn't created before Satan rebelled. It was created because of the rebellion. Some of what you have said is correct, but you have a great deal to learn before you can adequately participate in the discussion you want to have.

VW,

Are you a little frightened you only hit some of this boondoggle? Because, woo doggie, if I went line by line on all he got wrong, I wouldn't have time to go to bed tonight. lol

 

[resurrection33]

What do we really know about Satan? During a bible discussion at church, the topic was on bad spirits, demons and such. Teacher said that the Devil was an enemy of God. I asked if Satan was our enemy also. Teacher said, yes.
My response was that God tells us to love our enemies. The room got very quite. As I see it, God used Satan. The plan of salvation requires Satan to play his part beginning with the Garden of Eden.
Who is this Satan. Satan knows everything. Why would he rebel knowing there is a Hell to go to.
Was hell invented already when he rebelled.
Adam sinned without the devil guiding him. Which means we can not blame the devil for all our sins.
Some sins we cause upon ourselves.
Our life is merely a theater with all the right characters in place.
Satan is going to hell and we are suppose to hate a condemned man ( or whatever he is). Besides, the devil can not harm you if you are wearing the armor of Christ.
They say to be in God's presence is the glory of heaven. Well Satan was there and he did not think so.
I guess when you are that far up the latter, you see things different.
What's wrong with this picture?

I think that Satan is a tempter, not a scapegoat.

 

[JoelG]

What verse states that Satan knows everything? He was the sum of all wisdom and perfect (complete) in the day he was created...NOTICE the word DAY he was created....no where does it say or imply that Satan knows everything......

What I meant by Satan knowing everything: Satan was in God's presence. And, humans musts rely on faith bases on our understanding of what he scriptures reveal. And, that is all I meant. I was not implying that Satan is anywhere as good as God.