Saved by faith alone?

[mailmandan]

You keep on contradicting yourself. You say that we are saved by faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not by a profession of faith that is barren of works.
But you also say "we are saved by grace through faith, not works." And infer or assert that I believe we are saved by faith AND works, when I actually said we are saved by a faith that works.

What is wrong with the following statement? "We are saved by grace through a faith in Jesus Christ that works righteousness in us so that we do righteousness. And a claim to have faith in Jesus Christ that does not work righteousness in us, so that we don't do righteousness, is dead because it remains alone and has not produced godly works."

Semantics? It may simply sound like a contradiction to you. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ alone and not by works/God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Faith that saves results in producing works (James 2;14-24) because it's alive in Christ. (Ephesians 2:5-10) When you say we are saved by faith that works, do you believe we are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, or not until later, after works are produced? We are not saved by works of righteousness (literally, works done in righteousness) which we have done (Titus 3:5), yet works of righteousness in connection with salvation are the fruit of, but not the means of obtaining salvation. (Acts 10:34-35)

 

[rogerg]

Does the phrase, "saved by faith" equivalent to the term, "saved by faith alone"?

I would suggest that our faith does not/cannot save us. The faith that saves is Christ's faith. He was perfectly faithful to the Father in His mission as the Savior - by perfect faith residing within Him. One of Christ's names is Faithful and True. If our faith were a requirement for our salvation and should we not produce it then we wouldn't become saved, thereby making the requirement to produce faith into a law, yet no one can be saved by their keeping of law (and the requirement to satisfy the law would also make it a work that we must undertake to be saved).
No, faith comes as a gift to those God had chosen for salvation, from, and as a byproduct of, His faith - but as an effect, not a cause, from/by which, we come to true belief/trust in Christ as Savior. With the faith being His, no contradiction exists between grace and faith both as the requirements for salvation - as one completes, and is a necessity for the other, yet neither of which coming from us. Thereby, is salvation a gift from God as we are so informed in the gospels - and that which makes Christ Savior not man.

 

[Magenta]

Jesus' words in John 6 verse 45b and John 6 verse 39b

 

[PaulThomson]

Semantics? It may simply sound like a contradiction to you. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ alone and not by works/God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Faith that saves results in producing works (James 2;14-24) because it's alive in Christ. (Ephesians 2:5-10) When you say we are saved by faith that works, do you believe we are saved the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, or not until later, after works are produced? We are not saved by works of righteousness (literally, works done in righteousness) which we have done (Titus 3:5), yet works of righteousness in connection with salvation are the fruit of, but not the means of obtaining salvation. (Acts 10:34-35)

I don't think of salvation (sOtEria) and being saved (sOzO) as a signature on a document that bestows uninterrupted, unending privileges to the person named in the document as benefactor. I think of salvation as being saved from present dangers. When someone saves me from danger, I am not thereafter immune from falling into further danger. Being save never means into a permanent safety, except when people read the word in the Bible. There, they imbue it with a unique permanence that they would not ascribe to it used anywhere else.

So, yes, I agree we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ before we do any works in Christ. I agree we are not saved because of our past works, but by the faith we have in Jesus. And I believe that there are times where we simply believe God without necessarily doing a specific work, and God credits that workless faith in Him to our record as righteousness. But the faith in Jesus that saves must evidence works of righteousness performed out of that faith. And scripture says that a faith that does not have the works one would expect from faith, is a dead faith.

You say that we are not saved by works but by faith alone, and you also say that saving faith must have works following it to be genuine saving faith. These two assertions contradict. If saving faith must be followed by works, then it must be a faith that works, and you cannot completely divorce works from the process of salvation. If someone becomes washed r=through faith but later returns to works that are unclean, they have returned to the mire they were rescued from. A man rescued from quicksand has been saved. But if he falls back into the quicksand, it would be equally foolish to argue -

1. He was saved, so he'll be OK now.

Or 2. He never was really saved the first time.

 

[GWH]

I would suggest that our faith does not/cannot save us. The faith that saves is Christ's faith. He was perfectly faithful to the Father in His mission as the Savior - by perfect faith residing within Him. One of Christ's names is Faithful and True. If our faith were a requirement for our salvation and should we not produce it then we wouldn't become saved, thereby making the requirement to produce faith into a law, yet no one can be saved by their keeping of law (and the requirement to satisfy the law would also make it a work that we must undertake to be saved).
No, faith comes as a gift to those God had chosen for salvation, from, and as a byproduct of, His faith - but as an effect, not a cause, from/by which, we come to true belief/trust in Christ as Savior. With the faith being His, no contradiction exists between grace and faith both as the requirements for salvation - as one completes, and is a necessity for the other, yet neither of which coming from us. Thereby, is salvation a gift from God as we are so informed in the gospels - and that which makes Christ Savior not man.

God saves sinners who repent (1Tim. 2:3-4, Matt. 4:17). Repentance means accepting Jesus as Messiah and Lord (Acts 16:30-31, Col. 2:6). God enables all sinners to repent, seek salvation and find the LJC (1Tim. 2:3-5, Heb. 11:6). God's enabling is resistible so souls may choose instead to serve Satan (Matt. 13:14-15, John 8:42-44). God's enabling of volition (Deut. 30:19) may be called seeking grace (Eph. 2:8). Souls who choose to reject God/Christ are justly condemned (Rom. 1:20, 2:5-11). Accepting God's grace by faith is not a meritorious work (Rom. 3:21-28, Eph. 2:8-9). Even loving works motivated by God's HS manifest faith rather than merit (Eph. 2:10), because there is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (John 6:29, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes. The only contradiction comes from those who are spiritually blind (Matt. 13:15, 2Cor. 4:4, John 9:41).

 

[TMS]

Only Jesus Christ has met that standard. (2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 2:22)

Mankind has failed. (Ecclesiastes 7:20; James 2:10; Romans 3:10-12, 23; 1 John 1:8-10)

Agree that only Jesus is good enough.

But do you keep using this as an excuse?

We have failed. And it is impossible to save ourselves.

But Jesus walked on water, which is a miracle,

We can believe that it is impossible for us to walk on water, OR, we can by faith believe and walk on water with Jesus.

All glory to God, but we need to have faith.

Peter walked on the water. And when he failed Jesus lifted him up.

STOP making excuses to not overcome and stop making excuses to not step out of the boat to come closer to Jesus.

Stop saying you can't, or we can't, it's impossible.
By faith we can overcome, it is lack of faith, doubt, that causes us to fall.

Mat 14:29-31
29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. 31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

 

[mailmandan]

So, yes, I agree we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ before we do any works in Christ. I agree we are not saved because of our past works, but by the faith we have in Jesus.

Amen!

And I believe that there are times where we simply believe God without necessarily doing a specific work, and God credits that workless faith in Him to our record as righteousness. But the faith in Jesus that saves must evidence works of righteousness performed out of that faith. And scripture says that a faith that does not have the works one would expect from faith, is a dead faith.

Faith in Jesus that saves will evidence works of righteousness performed out of that faith. (Acts 10:34-35) Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

You say that we are not saved by works but by faith alone, and you also say that saving faith must have works following it to be genuine saving faith. These two assertions contradict.

You just basically said the same thing. We are not saved by works but by faith in Jesus Christ alone. Jesus Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28) Saving faith must have works following it in order to demonstrate it to be genuine saving faith. (James 2:14-24) I thought we were in agreement here and you basically said the same thing yet now you are saying that I am contradicting myself.

If saving faith must be followed by works, then it must be a faith that works, and you cannot completely divorce works from the process of salvation. If someone becomes washed r=through faith but later returns to works that are unclean, they have returned to the mire they were rescued from. A man rescued from quicksand has been saved. But if he falls back into the quicksand, it would be equally foolish to argue -

1. He was saved, so he'll be OK now.

Or 2. He never was really saved the first time.

What do you mean by process of salvation? Maintaining salvation by works? That would still be salvation by works (at the back door). You are allowing your anti-OSAS bias to cloud your view on faith and works. If it was possible for someone to lose their salvation, they would have to completely turn their back on Jesus Christ and remain that way. I don't believe that someone who truly is born again would do that, but apparently you do. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" or pseudo-Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and in the end the wheat and tares will become obvious.

 

[mailmandan]

Agree that only Jesus is good enough.

But do you keep using this as an excuse?

We have failed. And it is impossible to save ourselves.

But Jesus walked on water, which is a miracle,

We can believe that it is impossible for us to walk on water, OR, we can by faith believe and walk on water with Jesus.

All glory to God, but we need to have faith.

Peter walked on the water. And when he failed Jesus lifted him up.

STOP making excuses to not overcome and stop making excuses to not step out of the boat to come closer to Jesus.

Stop saying you can't, or we can't, it's impossible.
By faith we can overcome, it is lack of faith, doubt, that causes us to fall.

Mat 14:29-31
29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. 31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Only Jesus is good enough and we are not good enough to save ourselves was my point and not that we can't step out of the boat as believers, strengthen our faith and get closer to Jesus. Even though we are saved through faith and not by works, faith may or may not be strong enough to cause us to walk on water as with Peter. I'm not making excuses to not step out of the boat to come closer to Jesus. That is a straw man argument. 1 John 5:4 - for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, our faith.

 

[TMS]

Can a saved person choose to be lost?

Is once saved always saved real?

 

[mailmandan]

Can a saved person choose to be lost?

Is once saved always saved real?

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

Preservation of the saints is real. (Psalm 37:28; John 6:38-39; 10:27-28; Romans 8:30; Ephesians 1:13-14; Jude 1:1 etc..).

 

[John146]

I don't think of salvation (sOtEria) and being saved (sOzO) as a signature on a document that bestows uninterrupted, unending privileges to the person named in the document as benefactor. I think of salvation as being saved from present dangers. When someone saves me from danger, I am not thereafter immune from falling into further danger. Being save never means into a permanent safety, except when people read the word in the Bible. There, they imbue it with a unique permanence that they would not ascribe to it used anywhere else.

So, yes, I agree we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ before we do any works in Christ. I agree we are not saved because of our past works, but by the faith we have in Jesus. And I believe that there are times where we simply believe God without necessarily doing a specific work, and God credits that workless faith in Him to our record as righteousness. But the faith in Jesus that saves must evidence works of righteousness performed out of that faith. And scripture says that a faith that does not have the works one would expect from faith, is a dead faith.

You say that we are not saved by works but by faith alone, and you also say that saving faith must have works following it to be genuine saving faith. These two assertions contradict. If saving faith must be followed by works, then it must be a faith that works, and you cannot completely divorce works from the process of salvation. If someone becomes washed r=through faith but later returns to works that are unclean, they have returned to the mire they were rescued from. A man rescued from quicksand has been saved. But if he falls back into the quicksand, it would be equally foolish to argue -

1. He was saved, so he'll be OK now.

Or 2. He never was really saved the first time.

Choice 1. The believer is not justified by works, but by the faith of Jesus Christ. The believer’s individual faith can never justify salvation.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[TMS]

Only Jesus is good enough and we are not good enough to save ourselves was my point and not that we can't step out of the boat as believers, strengthen our faith and get closer to Jesus. Even though we are saved through faith and not by works, faith may or may not be strong enough to cause us to walk on water as with Peter. I'm not making excuses to not step out of the boat to come closer to Jesus. That is a straw man argument. 1 John 5:4 - for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, our faith.

So it is a good thing to promote works... walking on water, and doing God's will, if it is done because you believe in promoting God's ability to save us by faith, from sinning. glorifying God.

Uplifting the promises of God
1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

There are 2 reasons to do works...

To gain righteousness, which is never going to be good enough. Doing works for this reason is wrong, and against faith in Christ's righteousness.

Or because you love Jesus and believe He can create good works in you. Faith based works. Doing works because you love Jesus is not against faith.

Sanctification is by faith and takes time. But good works are the fruits of this work in us.

 

[mailmandan]

So it is a good thing to promote works... walking on water, and doing God's will, if it is done because you believe in promoting God's ability to save us by faith, from sinning. glorifying God.

Uplifting the promises of God
1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

There are 2 reasons to do works...

To gain righteousness, which is never going to be good enough. Doing works for this reason is wrong, and against faith in Christ's righteousness.

Or because you love Jesus and believe He can create good works in you. Faith based works. Doing works because you love Jesus is not against faith.

Sanctification is by faith and takes time. But good works are the fruits of this work in us.

Matthew 5:16 - In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Titus 3:8 - This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Doing good works out of love for the Lord is the proper motivation.

 

[TMS]

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

Preservation of the saints is real. (Psalm 37:28; John 6:38-39; 10:27-28; Romans 8:30; Ephesians 1:13-14; Jude 1:1 etc..).

Sorry, I'm getting the impression that you believe "no", to the first question and "yes" to the second but just so I'm not mistaken . A straight answer.... yes or no...

Can a saved person choose to be lost?

Do you believe in once saved always saved?

 

[mailmandan]

Sorry, I'm getting the impression that you believe "no", to the first question and "yes" to the second but just so I'm not mistaken . A straight answer.... yes or no...

Can a saved person choose to be lost?

Do you believe in once saved always saved?

No and yes.

 

[rogerg]

God saves sinners who repent (1Tim. 2:3-4, Matt. 4:17). Repentance means accepting Jesus as Messiah and Lord (Acts 16:30-31, Col. 2:6). God enables all sinners to repent, seek salvation and find the LJC (1Tim. 2:3-5, Heb. 11:6). God's enabling is resistible so souls may choose instead to serve Satan (Matt. 13:14-15, John 8:42-44). God's enabling of volition (Deut. 30:19) may be called seeking grace (Eph. 2:8). Souls who choose to reject God/Christ are justly condemned (Rom. 1:20, 2:5-11). Accepting God's grace by faith is not a meritorious work (Rom. 3:21-28, Eph. 2:8-9). Even loving works motivated by God's HS manifest faith rather than merit (Eph. 2:10), because there is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (John 6:29, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes. The only contradiction comes from those who are spiritually blind (Matt. 13:15, 2Cor. 4:4, John 9:41).

No. God alone GIVES repentance, which repentance, is manifested in a coming to belief in Christ as Savior, instead of in dead works. A spiritually dead person, (which all were until saved), cannot give repentance to themselves: those to whom it is given cannot reject it; those to whom it is not given cannot obtain it. What you are saying makes man into their own savior rather than Christ being the Savior - He alone wears the title of Savior, man does not. You would strip that from Him if you could

[2Ti 2:25 KJV] 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

[Tit 3:5-6 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

 

[studier]

You say that we are not saved by works but by faith alone, and you also say that saving faith must have works following it to be genuine saving faith. These two assertions contradict.

@mailmandan believes perseverance of the saints or, and he can correct me, preservation of the saints. Whatever the semantics, once saved no loss.

What' interests me is the "faith alone" semantics whereby works never contribute to salvation or however someone is comfortable stating this. IMO this made-up phrase is the issue and has been for centuries.

I've had a few days off in some relative silence and have been looking at justification again. I'm questioning how and why we're looking at it as we do, especially through Rom2-6.

 

[Magenta]

Peter walked on the water. And when he failed Jesus lifted him up.

STOP making excuses to not overcome and stop making excuses to not step out of the boat to come closer to Jesus.

Stop saying you can't, or we can't, it's impossible.
By faith we can overcome, it is lack of faith, doubt, that causes us to fall.

Who has walked on water since then??? If nobody, stop saying we can or it's possible.