Saved by faith alone?

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TMS

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Mar 21, 2015
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Because you believe we cannot choose to be lost, and once saved always saved, we have different understandings of judgement.

Which involves justification by faith.

We are born sinners and have no choice about the human nature, but we do have a choice about salvation.

Can a saved person choose to be lost?
Surely they can reject the gospel and turn away from God if they want to.
 

TMS

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Mar 21, 2015
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If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Recall that verse? 1 John 1:8
I'm not claiming to be without sin
I'm claiming that by faith we can overcome sin.
One at a time we can grow and become more and more like Jesus.

This is called sanctification by faith.

But if a say I can't, and say it's too hard or it's not possible, it will never happen.

Have faith 🙏
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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I'm not claiming to be without sin
I'm claiming that by faith we can overcome sin.
One at a time we can grow and become more and more like Jesus.

This is called sanctification by faith.

But if a say I can't, and say it's too hard or it's not possible, it will never happen.

Have faith 🙏
I did not say you claimed to be without sin... But 1 John 1:8 says if you do you are deceived and the truth is not in you.
 
Apr 7, 2014
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Because you believe we cannot choose to be lost, and once saved always saved, we have different understandings of judgement.

Which involves justification by faith.

We are born sinners and have no choice about the human nature, but we do have a choice about salvation.

Can a saved person choose to be lost?
Surely they can reject the gospel and turn away from God if they want to.
Why would a genuine born again Christian, who is a new creation in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) reject salvation? That would be completely unfathomable to me. Genuine believers have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. (1 Peter 1:23)
 

sawdust

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Feb 12, 2024
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Surely they can reject the gospel and turn away from God if they want to.
If a person rejects the Gospel they are not saved.

Unless one is stronger than God they cannot evict the Holy Spirit by whom we are sealed for the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30). As Jesus pointed out, it takes a stronger man to evict another (Luke 11:21).

What one can lose, is salvation from the evils we must face in our time here which, includes the destruction our own sin causes. But whoever believes has already overcome death for this is what the Lord God has promised. Having that salvation puts us into the position of being able (by grace) to overcome the rest. This is working out our salvation. You have to have it to work it out.

And no, you cannot choose to walk away, because even if we are unfaithful God is not (2 Timothy 2:13) and He will not let a "puny man" cause His word to become untrue.

This is why the apostles stress obedience to the word in faith because when we fail (and some fail miserably like the Heb.6 mob), to an unbelieving world, God looks like an idiot, but to those of us who know Him, we recognise the unending mercy and steadfast love of the Lord who refuses to give up on us.
 

PaulThomson

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@mailmandan believes perseverance of the saints or, and he can correct me, preservation of the saints. Whatever the semantics, once saved no loss.

What' interests me is the "faith alone" semantics whereby works never contribute to salvation or however someone is comfortable stating this. IMO this made-up phrase is the issue and has been for centuries.

I've had a few days off in some relative silence and have been looking at justification again. I'm questioning how and why we're looking at it as we do, especially through Rom2-6.
Have you read any of NT Wright's work on righteousness?

If not, here is a review of His work. https://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/bibleandculture/2009/06/with-justification.html
 

PaulThomson

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Why would a genuine born again Christian, who is a new creation in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) reject salvation? That would be completely unfathomable to me. Genuine believers have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. (1 Peter 1:23)
If I have a sack of seeds that never fail to germinate, that does not guarantee that the plants produced from the seed will never get sick and die.
Imperishable seed (God's word) does not imply imperishable plants (God's children). All Adam's seed are God's children produced by the imperishable word of God. But not all remain healthy and alive.
 

TMS

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Mar 21, 2015
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Nowhere in the Bible is entrance into God's kingdom tied to a momentary - or even temporary - faith experience of the past.
Why would a genuine born again Christian, who is a new creation in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) reject salvation? That would be completely unfathomable to me. Genuine believers have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. (1 Peter 1:23)
Why did Satan choose to rebel?
We might not understand why people choose what they do, but there is a battle for our souls and satan would not fight if there is no chance for him to succeed.

All Ten of the virgins in Christ's parable knew Christ, understood that He was comming and had the Holy Spirit.

Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
:8 KJV And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

They all wanted to go with the bridegroom. But 5 missed out. Not because they didn't understand or want to but because they didn't have enough oil.

Many today love Jesus and the gospel, but will not be saved because they are not ready.
 

TMS

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Mar 21, 2015
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Speaking of the New Jerusalem, John said, "There shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth." Revelation 21:27. Jesus said, "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." Matthew 5:8. Paul repeatedly wrote about the exclusion of sinners from heaven. Sin is the only thing that defiles in the sight of God, and no one who willfully practices sin will ever enter into His kingdom. Paul wrote, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, . . . nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards . . . shall inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10.

If I selfishly want to practice sin and not willing to let it go, can i enter heaven.

Can I take sin with me to heaven?

Can i one day be justified by grace, by repentance, and faith. And then the next day choose to sin, return back to the selfish life?
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
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Speaking of the New Jerusalem, John said, "There shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth." Revelation 21:27. Jesus said, "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." Matthew 5:8. Paul repeatedly wrote about the exclusion of sinners from heaven. Sin is the only thing that defiles in the sight of God, and no one who willfully practices sin will ever enter into His kingdom. Paul wrote, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, . . . nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards . . . shall inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10.

If I selfishly want to practice sin and not willing to let it go, can i enter heaven.

Can I take sin with me to heaven?

Can i one day be justified by grace, by repentance, and faith. And then the next day choose to sin, return back to the selfish life?
well, Jesus told Peter that he should be willing to forgive someone who sins and repents not 7 ( Peter went above the four times forgiveness ) times but to forgive 7 x 77 times.

so, there is a answer to what you stated.
 

studier

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@mailmandan believes perseverance of the saints or, and he can correct me, preservation of the saints. Whatever the semantics, once saved no loss.

What' interests me is the "faith alone" semantics whereby works never contribute to salvation or however someone is comfortable stating this. IMO this made-up phrase is the issue and has been for centuries.

I've had a few days off in some relative silence and have been looking at justification again. I'm questioning how and why we're looking at it as we do, especially through Rom2-6.
So I noticed. I trust everything is okay and will be interested in what you learned about justification, especially if it pertains to our discussion on the Hermeneutics thread, where we have been missing you.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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Some, yes. Thanks for the link!

I'm seeing some issues with credited righteousness compared with justification, Rom5 being pivotal with some interesting language issues.
Tom Wright's book Justification, God's plan and Paul's Vision is a good read on this issue.
 
Apr 7, 2014
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Nowhere in the Bible is entrance into God's kingdom tied to a momentary - or even temporary - faith experience of the past.
Faith that saves continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.

Why did Satan choose to rebel?
Satan wanted to ascend to the heavens and raise his throne above the stars of God. (Isaiah 14:13)

We might not understand why people choose what they do, but there is a battle for our souls and satan would not fight if there is no chance for him to succeed.
Satan succeeds by blinding the minds of those who do not believe the gospel. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) The fight is on. Many are on the broad way that leads to destruction, and few are on the narrow way that leads to life. (Matthew 7:13-14) You call that unsuccessful?

All Ten of the virgins in Christ's parable knew Christ, understood that He was comming and had the Holy Spirit.

Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
:8 KJV And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

They all wanted to go with the bridegroom. But 5 missed out. Not because they didn't understand or want to but because they didn't have enough oil.
The wording of the five foolish virgins in our text is all too familiar to the reader of Matthew’s Gospel: Matthew 25:11 - "Later, the other virgins came too, saying, ‘Lord, lord! Let us in!’ 12 But he replied, ‘I tell you the truth, I do not know you!" Matthew 7:21 - "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven" but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven - (See John 6:40). 22 On that day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do many powerful works?’ 23 Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you. Go away from me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7:21-23) Jesus never knew these many people which means they were never saved. Since they were never saved, their sins remain. Hence, you who practice lawlessness in contrast with being saved and practicing righteousness.

Taking Matthew’s words literally, I read that the difference between the foolish virgins and the wise virgins: The wise virgins had oil for their lamps, while the foolish virgins did not. The wise virgins had the opportunity to obtain oil and did so. The foolish virgins had plenty of opportunity to procure oil but did not. It's possible to be in close contact with Christ, and with Christians, and yet not be saved. I am reminded of a similar passage in the Gospel of Luke:

Luke 13:23 Someone asked him, "Lord, will only a few be saved?" So he said to them, 24 "Exert every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, then you will stand outside and start to knock on the door and beg him, ‘Lord, let us in!’ But he will answer you, ‘I don’t know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will reply, ‘I don’t know where you come from! Go away from me, all you evildoers!’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves thrown out. 29 Then people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and take their places at the banquet table in the kingdom of God. 30 But indeed, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last."

Jesus may indeed be warning us in this parable that there will be a number of people who look like Christians, who associate with Christians, and who even think they are Christians, who will be shocked to learn that they are not saved at the return of our Lord and Christ never knew them. What a sobering thought!

Many today love Jesus and the gospel but will not be saved because they are not ready.
In 1 Corinthians 16:22, we read - If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. Yet you say those who love Jesus will still be accursed. In 1 John 4:7, we read - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Those who believe the gospel are saved. (Romans 1:16) But you say, they are not ready.
 
Apr 7, 2014
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If I have a sack of seeds that never fail to germinate, that does not guarantee that the plants produced from the seed will never get sick and die.
Imperishable seed (God's word) does not imply imperishable plants (God's children). All Adam's seed are God's children produced by the imperishable word of God. But not all remain healthy and alive.
The seed needs to fall in good soil to begin with or else it will not take root and produce a crop. (Luke 8:15) Only the 4th soil in the parable of the Sower was referred to as good ground that produced fruit and there is no mention of being scorched, choked, or failing to remain healthy and alive thereafter.
 
Jan 13, 2016
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The seed needs to fall in good soil to begin with or else it will not take root and produce a crop. (Luke 8:15) Only the 4th soil in the parable of the Sower was referred to as good ground that produced fruit and there is no mention of being scorched, choked, or failing to remain healthy and alive thereafter.
Yes, but the Lord sowed seed everywhere. We can never tell which type of soil a person may be.

Question: Do you believe bad soil can eventually become good soil?
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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The seed needs to fall in good soil to begin with or else it will not take root and produce a crop. (Luke 8:15) Only the 4th soil in the parable of the Sower was referred to as good ground that produced fruit and there is no mention of being scorched, choked, or failing to remain healthy and alive thereafter.
It was the quality of the soil, which Jesus related to the quality of the heart, that affected fruitfulness. The path would not receive the seed, but the seed was incorruptible. The stony soil and thorny soil received the seed and sprouted, so the "seed" was incorruptible, but the plant produced by the soil was corrupted. The good soil received incorruptible seed and was fruitful. The good soil had less, not more. Less hardness, fewer stones, fewer weeds. Hearts that receive the word and we purify by making them less hard, less shallow and less anxious, less greedy and less pleasure-seeking, will be more fruitful.