Saved by faith alone?

[dkontner]

We are not saved by faith. We are saved by grace. Grace is the exercise of God's power in/on/through an individual. Faith is the tool God employs.

If my faucet is leaking, I might use a wrench to fix it. No one would ever say that the wrench fixed the faucet. They would say that I fixed the faucet using a wrench.

In like manner, God saves making use of faith.

I'd like to add mercy, His grace and mercy saved me.

 

[Genez]

This was the question from post# 3040

"If good works are evidence of walking with God is walking with God evidence of salvation?"

This was your answer from post# 3041

"Yes. Walking with God is evidence of salvation and denotes a relationship with Him."

I did not ask was walking with God evidence of salvation?

You clearly ignored the "if good works are evidence of walking with God". The "if" is paramount to the question.

You cannot simply drop the first clause from the question and alter the question.

Of course walking with God is evidence of salvation but can that evidence of salvation be proven by our good works?

I think you knew this hence the way you non-answered the question.

You think that all Christians are walking according to rules they find in the Bible?

 

[Inquisitor]

"It is God's revelation given through human authors whom He directed by His Spirit.

We have two examples of the Spirit directing both authors below.

Galatians 1:15-16
But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal
His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood.

Revelation 1:17-19
When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am
the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death
and of Hades. Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place
after these things.

Now we have a quotation from Luke which does not demonstrate that direct activity of the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:1-3
Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were
handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, it seemed fitting for
me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order,
most excellent Theophilus.

There are three points to note about Luke's account.

There are many accounts written about the ministry of Jesus not just four accounts.

Luke is investigating and compiling the information he wrote from various sources.

We do not observe that Luke's account is directed by the Holy Spirit because Luke does not state that.

As far as I am concerned I do not read Luke's compiled account as a basis for doctrine.

Just a simple additional comment to make about the translation of the Greek below from Luke 1.

who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word

If you were a translator of the Koine Greek text would you insert a capital "W" in the occurrence of the 'word' above?

Is an eyewitness of "the word" an eyewitness of the N.T, a message, or an eyewitness of Jesus Christ?

 

[Inquisitor]

It is scripture that reveals water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins is not a continuation of John's baptism of repentance. John's baptism prepared people for the coming Messiah. (Matt. 3:11; Acts 19:4). After Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, the apostles proclaimed a different baptism—one administered in the name of Jesus Christ because of His completed sacrifice.

On the Day of Pentecost, Peter did not command John's baptism. He said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38). This baptism identifies the believer with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection (Rom. 6:3-4; Col. 2:12), something John's baptism could never accomplish because Christ had not yet died.

Acts 19:1-5 makes the distinction unmistakable. When Paul met disciples in Ephesus who had received only John's baptism, he explained that John's baptism pointed people to believe on Jesus. Upon hearing this, they were baptized again, this time "in the name of the Lord Jesus." Their rebaptism demonstrates that John's baptism and New Testament baptism were not the same.

Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins is an essential element of the New Testament rebirth. It is part of God's revealed response to the gospel, along with repentance and the need to receive the Holy Ghost as well. (Acts 2:38; Titus 3:5; John 3:5).

Hello Wansvic.

You used a quotation from Titus to support your physical baptism in water.

Titus 3:5-6
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior.

Your quotation actually supports the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

"by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit"

 

[amazingrace]

after the grace of justification and union with God in Christ we must participate in sanctification and perseverance unto eternal salvation!

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
(eternal salvation)

thks

. Cyprian of Carthage (c. 210–258)Taught that justification required ongoing righteous deeds, arguing that faith without the fruit of obedience was meaningless:

Blessed is He that endureth to the end. Mt 10:22; but the end is the final attainment of the promised blessedness, and they are blessed who endure until the goal of perfect happiness is reached, Their end is to abide with unbroken rest in that condition, towards which they are pressing. Similarly, as a deterrent, the Apostle warns us of the end of the wicked, Whose end is perdition, . . . . . but our expectation is in heaven

The means of our salvation is according to the purpose of our creation!

To Know, Love, & serve God!

eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

cannot be fulfilled by faith alone!

thks

 

[Play4G]

we are not saved on faith alone. Matthew 7:21 when Jesus explicitly tells us how we enter the kingdom of heaven.

Hint it requires an action, in which action means to do works. A will requires work.

 

[Play4G]

Abraham was saved BEFORE he obeyed him.

Abraham also sinned many grave sins after he was saved.

If you say we are saved by grace plus works. you are in error..

This is false. Abraham required an action (works) to show God he was willing to sacrifice his son. He was saved after the fact of his works aka doing what God told him to do.

 

[maximc]

we are not saved on faith alone. Matthew 7:21 when Jesus explicitly tells us how we enter the kingdom of heaven.

Hint it requires an action, in which action means to do works. A will requires work.

Works are very much essential for our salvation. Now that does not mean we are not saved by faith alone. We are saved by faith alone and not by works. Sounds contradictory? Yes. Let me explain. Once a person is saved, he/she needs to walk in the Spirit which requires spending time in the presence of the Lord by means of praise, worship, prayer, reading the Word of God etc. As we spend our time in the presence of the Lord, God transforms our heart. This is what is causing us to do the good works. Therefore, works done through an untransformed heart cannot be counted as good works. Read 1 Cor 3:10-15

 

[amazingrace]

But using your analogy, you already have employment. He wouldn't be your boss otherwise. Filling in (or "filling out" as Americans say) a thirty minute report at the end of each day is not something required to get the employment. You cannot summarise your day's work in a report if you don't have a job. Similarly, the "good works" of Ephesians 2:10 are not to get salvation - Paul has already stated that salvation is not gained by our works - but are a result of having been saved.

then they have no purpose

and does not say works are not involved

Romans 6:23 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

thks

 

[amazingrace]

Yes—in the name of Jesus.

I fully believe Matthew 28:19. The question is not whether Jesus commanded baptism "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." The question is: How did the apostles understand and obey that command?

When we read the book of Acts, every recorded baptism after Jesus gave Matthew 28:19 was performed in the name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 2:38 – "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ..."
Acts 8:16 – They "were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."
Acts 10:48 – Peter "commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord."
Acts 19:5 – They "were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

There is not a single example in Acts of anyone being baptized while the words "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost" were spoken instead of the name of Jesus.

This makes sense because Jesus said to baptize in the name (singular), not "in the names." The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are not three different names. The Son's revealed name is Jesus, and Jesus said, "I am come in my Father's name" (John 5:43). The Holy Ghost is sent in Jesus' name (John 14:26).

The apostles had spent over three years learning directly from Jesus. If they all consistently baptized in the name of Jesus after receiving the Great Commission, I believe they were not ignoring Matthew 28:19—they were obeying it exactly as Jesus intended.

So the issue is not Matthew 28:19 versus Acts 2:38. It is whether the apostles correctly understood Jesus' command. Since they were personally taught by Christ and filled with the Holy Ghost, surely their practice in Acts is the inspired interpretation of Matthew 28:19.

acts 2:38 the command to be baptized is given in the name of Jesus not the baptism itself

which one again?

Acts 2:38 acts 10:48 “… in the name of Jesus Christ …”

acts 8:16 “… in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

acts 19:5 1 cor 6:11 “ … in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

acts 22:16 “… calling on His name"

thks

 

[maximc]

acts 2:38 the command to be baptized is given in the name of Jesus not the baptism itself

which one again?

Acts 2:38 acts 10:48 “… in the name of Jesus Christ …”

acts 8:16 “… in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

acts 19:5 1 cor 6:11 “ … in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

acts 22:16 “… calling on His name"

thks

I have no say on this, but wouldn't it be ideal to do as per what Jesus said rather than what the disciples did?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

This is false. Abraham required an action (works) to show God he was willing to sacrifice his son. He was saved after the fact of his works aka doing what God told him to do.

This is false. Abraham was saved in Gen 15. (see also romans 4)

He offered to sacrifice his son in Gen 22. Decades after he was saved

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

we are not saved on faith alone. Matthew 7:21 when Jesus explicitly tells us how we enter the kingdom of heaven.

Hint it requires an action, in which action means to do works. A will requires work.

we are saved by grace alone (eph 2: 8)

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Works are very much essential for our salvation. Now that does not mean we are not saved by faith alone. We are saved by faith alone and not by works. Sounds contradictory? Yes. Let me explain. Once a person is saved, he/she needs to walk in the Spirit which requires spending time in the presence of the Lord by means of praise, worship, prayer, reading the Word of God etc. As we spend our time in the presence of the Lord, God transforms our heart. This is what is causing us to do the good works. Therefore, works done through an untransformed heart cannot be counted as good works. Read 1 Cor 3:10-15

True faith produces true works.

but we are saved by grace alone.. it is recieved in faith.. those saved will (not might) do works.

 

[amazingrace]

Try not to confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. These good deeds done are the result of, not the means or basis of procuring eternal life.

Again, patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.

*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we procure eternal life, but the type of deeds expose our heart condition and salvation status.

These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit of, but not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 3:24-28; 4:4-6; 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Those who are justified have been sanctified set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 1:2 - To the church of God, which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus.

Yet we also see progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So, becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one-time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one-time event. Here is how I understand it. The believer possesses a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, an ongoing process of growth in practical, progressive holiness which becomes increasingly evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives.

Amen! Now try not to confuse positional and practical sanctification, with self righteousness.

Who said otherwise? Reformation plantation? lol I can see that the RC church has really done a number on you.

you are conflating redemption, justification, sanctification, perseverance all are parts in the process of salvation but all are not eternal salvation!

thks

define please or we are not on the same page

eternal life:
general redemption:
justification:
sanctification:
perseverance:
death & judgement:
final
eternal salvation:

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

you are conflating redemption, justification, sanctification, perseverance all are parts in the process of salvation but all are not eternal salvation!

thks

define please or we are not on the same page

eternal life:
general redemption:
justification:
sanctification:
perseverance:
death & judgement:
final
eternal salvation:

is he doing this or are you?

Eternal life. Literally this person will live forever
Redemption. - purchased by another. We are4 redeemed by the blood (ie the cross)
Justification. a legal term. it means declaired righteous. Innocent of wrong doing.
Sanctification, Our ongoing Christian growth, He who began a good work will complete it.
Perseverance - Not sure why youi ask about this. God preserves us, we can not preserve ourselves or persevere
Death and judgment - the saved or no longer dead, we who were dead were made alive. The lost remain dead. and if they do not repent, will be judged to eternal death.
Eternal salvation - see eternal life.

 

[amazingrace]

You mean Romans 6:22. Romans 6:23 actually reads - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get confused by works-salvationists, especially Roman Catholis. 1. Justification 2. Sanctification 3. Glorification

You are citing verses that pertain to future glorification, in which those who have been (past tense with ongoing present results) saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) will be (future tense) saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

If you had to stand before the Lord today, would you point to your works, or would you point to Jesus Christ alone?

you right 6:22

parts of salvation?

our works are in Christ by grace
Jn 15:5 apart from Christ? nothing
phil 4:13 in Christ? all things

thks

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

you right 6:22

parts of salvation?

our works are in Christ by grace
Jn 15:5 apart from Christ? nothing
phil 4:13 in Christ? all things

thks

the wage of sin is death

but the fruit of my labor is eternal life

is this what it says?

 

[GWH]

Saved by God alone via faith in GRFS as revealed.

 

[Komentaja]

Just narrowing down what the source is for the primary doctrine.

Will I rely on a letter from Luke to a fellow named Theophilus to establish the doctrine of the church?

Luke also wrote the book of Acts and will I use the book of Acts to establish church doctrine?

So who did Jesus send to teach us all things was it Luke or Mark?

So which parts of the Bible do you agree with? And how do you make that judgment call?