Saved by faith alone?

[mailmandan]

Very well said.

Clear and concise but since it goes against their narrative, it must be ignored.

I'm not surprised that you are in agreement with a Roman Catholic here. Both the Roman Catholic church and the church of Christ teach salvation by faith AND WORKS, and if you believe that salvation is "obtained" by works, then you will also naturally believe that salvation is "maintained" by works as well. Patience and endurance are the mark of a genuine believer. Works-salvationists often confuse the evidence of salvation with the cause of salvation. They will confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. A conditional confirmation ends up getting turned into an additional requirement (work) to obtain salvation.

 

[Inquisitor]

If you think Jesus has made a mistake, he's the one you need to talk to about it. Not me.

Depends on how you read and understand the scripture or more precisely what you have been taught.

How do you read the following verse?

Deuteronomy 25:4​

Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.

 

[Inquisitor]

I'm not surprised that you are in agreement with a Roman Catholic here. Both the Roman Catholic church and the church of Christ teach salvation by faith AND WORKS, and if you believe that salvation is "obtained" by works, then you will also naturally believe that salvation is "maintained" by works as well. Patience and endurance are the mark of a genuine believer. Works-salvationists often confuse the evidence of salvation with the cause of salvation. They will confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. A conditional confirmation ends up getting turned into an additional requirement (work) to obtain salvation.

It is hard to believe that in the twenty first century a church will still misunderstand the gospel of Jesus Christ.

As if there is something we could do to obtain merit.

 

[Inquisitor]

1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That first letter to the Corinthians is one powerful letter.

1 Corinthians 14:37​

If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you
is the Lord’s command.

Alas, they will deny the Lord's commandment.

How can they do that?

Church tradition!

 

[BartholomewB]

Depends on how you read and understand the scripture or more precisely what you have been taught.

How do you read the following verse?

Deuteronomy 25:4​

Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.

Do you find that a difficult verse? Perhaps this may help:

5Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? 6Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living? 7Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard without eating any of its fruit? Or who tends a flock without getting some of the milk?

8Do I say these things on human authority? Does not the Law say the same? 9For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.” Is it for oxen that God is concerned? 10Does he not certainly speak for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. 11If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? 12If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we even more? [1 Cor 9, ESV]

 

[Dei-Gratia]

Abraham was saved BEFORE he obeyed him.

Abraham also sinned many grave sins after he was saved.

If you say we are saved by grace plus works. you are in error..

No, one becomes holy and righteous because of God, His grace working in us. Not dead faith alone. This is not accomplished by self determination alone, but the love of God working in us.

Ephesians 5
[1] Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
[2] And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
[3] But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
[4] Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
[5] For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Faith is the evidence of works and the vice versa.

 

[TMS]

I'm not surprised that you are in agreement with a Roman Catholic here. Both the Roman Catholic church and the church of Christ teach salvation by faith AND WORKS, and if you believe that salvation is "obtained" by works, then you will also naturally believe that salvation is "maintained" by works as well. Patience and endurance are the mark of a genuine believer. Works-salvationists often confuse the evidence of salvation with the cause of salvation. They will confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. A conditional confirmation ends up getting turned into an additional requirement (work) to obtain salvation.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

We can go to both extremes. You can be one sided for Grace or Works.

Christ and the Bible is balanced..

Obedience does not make you a legalist, and cheap grace will not save you.

Both our title to heaven and our fitness for it are found in the righteousness of Christ. But what does our fitness for Heaven entail? It is a character that is ready. If your heart is still longing for the sins of this world you will hate heaven.

Jesus was balanced when He addressed the women caught in adultery...

Joh 8:11 ...
And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

No condemnation..... but go and sin no more or repent.

There are verses about obedience and verses about grace.. don't cherry pick. Read them all to see the balanced view of faith and works.

 

[TrustandObey]

It is hard to believe that in the twenty first century a church will still misunderstand the gospel of Jesus Christ.

As if there is something we could do to obtain merit.

And what church is doing this?

 

[frederickdoc]

Thats a point to address wash water and Blood what baptism is witch? Many only seem to know a religious one ceremony.i give that one a water baptism .Now the Jesus king baptism the blood debt is your payment. But The blood is a Covering Also could call it Wash that dates back to ot times or go into the phrase Parah Adumah (פָרָה אֲדֻמָּה), meaning the "Red Heifer."

• The Remedy for Death: The primary purpose of the Red Heifer was to create a purification agent. The cow was completely burned to ashes outside the camp, and those ashes were mixed with "living water". This water was the only biblical substance that could cleanse a man or a priest who had become ritually defiled by coming into contact with a dead body.
• The Ultimate Paradox: The ritual is considered a chok—a divine law that transcends man logic. The paradox is that the clean priest who slaughtered and burned the heifer became ritually unclean by doing so, yet the resulting ashes made the unclean person completely clean.
• The Messianic Connection: Christian teaches that the Parah Adumah was a direct prophetic shadow of Jesus Anointed One. Just as the flawless red heifer was taken outside the camp to be slaughtered to break the curse of death, Jesus was taken outside the gates of Jerusalem to be crucified to permanently wash away sin and conquer death. The Prophetic Timeline

Rabbinic tradition states that only nine valid Red Heifers have ever been successfully sacrificed in all of men history from the time of Moses until the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 AD. Maimonides famously recorded that the tenth Red Heifer would usher in the era of the Messiah and the building of the Third Temple.

Wash water The flesh
wash Jesus Blood The Old Spirit .
The earth also got Both Water And Blood.

 

[mailmandan]

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Bare profession of faith. (James 2:14)

We can go to both extremes. You can be one sided for Grace or Works.

Christ and the Bible is balanced..

Obedience does not make you a legalist, and cheap grace will not save you.

Obedience from a regenerate heart does not make you a legalist, yet seeking salvation by works is not obedience. Legalism is the belief that one can earn or merit salvation through law keeping or good works, rather than by grace through faith.

Both our title to heaven and our fitness for it are found in the righteousness of Christ. But what does our fitness for Heaven entail? It is a character that is ready. If your heart is still longing for the sins of this world you will hate heaven.

Jesus was balanced when He addressed the women caught in adultery...

Joh 8:11 ...
And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

No condemnation..... but go and sin no more or repent.

Those who are born of God are not longing for the sins of this world. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

In John 8:11, Jesus did not condemn the woman caught in adultery yet told her to go and sin no more/leave her life of sin, namely, she had been practicing adultery.

There are verses about obedience and verses about grace.. don't cherry pick. Read them all to see the balanced view of faith and works.

I don't cherry pick and here is the balanced view of faith and works. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26)

*Jesus Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* ( Romans 3:24-28; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ ( Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[amazingrace]

Can we really take Acts 22:16 to mean that the waters of baptism actually wash away our sins? The Bible makes clear elsewhere that it is the blood of Jesus Christ that cleanses us from sin:

(1Jn 1:7 NKJV) But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Baptism is a symbol of such cleansing. If it actually cleansed from sin, Jesus would not have needed to be crucified, and John would not have written 1 John 1:7.

I'm not clear why you quoted Philippians 1:19, as the context shows Paul is not speaking about baptism, but the preaching of the gospel:

(Php 1:18-21 NKJV) What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice. For I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, according to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Paul was already saved when he wrote Philippians - he introduces himself as a bondservant of Jesus Christ. He is writing from prison, so the salvation he writes of is likely to be deliverance from his chains.

baptism is how the merits of the blood of Jesus are applied to our souls!

thks

 

[amazingrace]

So do you believe that someone can be redeemed but not saved?

by His life, death, and resurrection Christ is the redeemer of all men in a general way, making justification and finally salvation available to all men !

thats what eph 2 means by quickend or brought to life!

thks

 

[amazingrace]

But how could Jesus redeem a group without redeeming the individuals in that group?

by His life, death, and resurrection Christ is the redeemer of all men in a general way, making justification and finally salvation available to all men !

thats what eph 2 means by quickend or brought to life!

thks

 

[amazingrace]

Yes, all! That is exactly what the title of the Savior means—that He, and He alone, did everything required to save those chosen for salvation, with absolutely nothing remaining to be done by them for it.

then why does scripture say that we must do it?

thks

Jn 3:16 1 Jn 5:13 Perpetual faith
mt 3:8 2 cor 7:10 fruits of repentance
Jn 15:4 abide in Christ & bear fruit
Lk 3:9 bear fruit
Lk 1:75 acts 10:35 deeds of righteousness
phil 1:11 fruits of righteousness
mt 26:41 watch and pray
mk 24:48 watch and pray
Lk 21:36 Watch and pray, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
mt 7:7 ask and you shall receive
Lk 9:23 phil 1:29 daily, deny thyself, take up thy cross and follow me.
ps 23:3 leads in paths (deeds) of righteousness acts 10:35
mt 7:14 narrow road that leads to life
2 pet 3:18 grow in grace
heb 6:12 faith & patience
heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
rev 2:19 faith, patience, & works
rev 14:12 commandments, patience, & faith
mt 19:17 Jn 14:21 1 cor 7:19 1Jn 3:24 1 Jn 5:2-3 rev 12:17 keep the commandments
eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
mt 10:22 mk 13:13 mt 24:13 endure to the end in patient suffering
heb 6:15 after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
rev 2:10 he who overcomes I shall give the crown of life!

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
(eternal salvation)

 

[DavidLamb]

by His life, death, and resurrection Christ is the redeemer of all men in a general way, making justification and finally salvation available to all men !

thats what eph 2 means by quickend or brought to life!

thks

Where are we told that Christ redeemed all people in a general way? We read:

(Tit 2:14 NKJV) who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

(1Pe 1:18-19 NKJV) knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

Both Titus and 1 Peter were written to Christians:

(Tit 1:4 NKJV) To Titus, a true son in our common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.

(1Pe 1:1-2 NKJV) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

So when those epistles say "we" and "us" they don't mean "every human being who has ever existed", but they refer to Christians. I cannot find any reference to Jesus Christ redeeming those who remain unbelievers.

 

[Lamar]

I'm not surprised that you are in agreement with a Roman Catholic here. Both the Roman Catholic church and the church of Christ teach salvation by faith AND WORKS, and if you believe that salvation is "obtained" by works, then you will also naturally believe that salvation is "maintained" by works as well. Patience and endurance are the mark of a genuine believer. Works-salvationists often confuse the evidence of salvation with the cause of salvation. They will confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. A conditional confirmation ends up getting turned into an additional requirement (work) to obtain salvation.

I'm not surprised that you would stoop to such a childish guilt by association ploy. Most denominations share common beliefs on many issues, this is to be expected. An example of such is the many LGBTQ+ affirming denominations that share faith alone regeneration theology with the numerous local independent community churches today. It would be wrong to suggest that any church that supports faith alone regeneration theology also supports the LGBTQ+ movement. That would just be silly...right?

A desire to worship in spirit and truth are the mark of a genuine believer. Noncompliance-salvationists often confuse generalities referring to salvation as all-encompassing statements. They will confuse simple "descriptive" expressions of belief as "prescriptive" and limiting. A confirming passage on faith ends up getting turned into a panacea (no obedience) to obtain salvation.

 

[rogerg]

then why does scripture say that we must do it?

thks

Jn 3:16 1 Jn 5:13 Perpetual faith
mt 3:8 2 cor 7:10 fruits of repentance
Jn 15:4 abide in Christ & bear fruit
Lk 3:9 bear fruit
Lk 1:75 acts 10:35 deeds of righteousness
phil 1:11 fruits of righteousness
mt 26:41 watch and pray
mk 24:48 watch and pray
Lk 21:36 Watch and pray, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
mt 7:7 ask and you shall receive
Lk 9:23 phil 1:29 daily, deny thyself, take up thy cross and follow me.
ps 23:3 leads in paths (deeds) of righteousness acts 10:35
mt 7:14 narrow road that leads to life
2 pet 3:18 grow in grace
heb 6:12 faith & patience
heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
rev 2:19 faith, patience, & works
rev 14:12 commandments, patience, & faith
mt 19:17 Jn 14:21 1 cor 7:19 1Jn 3:24 1 Jn 5:2-3 rev 12:17 keep the commandments
eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
mt 10:22 mk 13:13 mt 24:13 endure to the end in patient suffering
heb 6:15 after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
rev 2:10 he who overcomes I shall give the crown of life!

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
(eternal salvation)

You are confusing the cause of salvation with the effects of salvation. Christ, as Savior, is the sole source of salvation, hence His title of the Savior. Through that salvation, by the Holy Spirit, we are given a new spirit, a new heart, and a renewed mind by God. Through Scripture and the edification of other saints, we are taught to, and how to manifest those attributes. However, even as a result of salvation, no Christian is able to perform them perfectly in this life. If perfection were required to become saved, we would all fall short. Therefore, those things cannot be understood as requirements for salvation.
As a Christian, you do believe that Christ is the Savior as Scripture clearly states that He is, don't you? Or do you believe His work on the cross was incomplete, needing assistance from man, thereby trivializing His perfect sacrifice?

 

[mailmandan]

I'm not surprised that you would stoop to such a childish guilt by association ploy.

It's not childish. Both churches are guilty of teaching salvation by faith AND WORKS in contradiction to scripture (Romans 3:24-26; 4:2-6; 5:1; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) which is critical and is a "different" gospel.

Most denominations share common beliefs on many issues, this is to be expected.

Most do not share common beliefs on the issue of salvation. Most churches teach salvation by faith AND WORKS, including Roman Catholicism, Mormonism and Campbellism.

An example of such is the many LGBTQ+ affirming denominations that share faith alone regeneration theology with the numerous local independent community churches today. It would be wrong to suggest that any church that supports faith alone regeneration theology also supports the LGBTQ+ movement. That would just be silly...right?

I'm yet to attend or even visit a genuine Christian church that teaches salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone and also supports the LGBTQ movement, but I did previously attend the Roman Catholic church and the church of Christ, and they both teach salvation by faith AND WORKS. I have run across churches that "claim" to teach salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone but it was with a twist.

1 Corinthians 6:9 - Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 5:19 - Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, 20 idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Such folks demonstrate they have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and are not born again.

Being born again and practicing such sins are incompatible and demonstrate that one is not born of God. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. John is clear. People can claim to be children of God all they want but if these conditional confirmations do not describe them then they are only fooling themselves.

A desire to worship in spirit and truth are the mark of a genuine believer.

Amen! A genuine believer is one who truly believes the gospel. (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

Noncompliance-salvationists often confuse generalities referring to salvation as all-encompassing statements. They will confuse simple "descriptive" expressions of belief as "prescriptive" and limiting. A confirming passage on faith ends up getting turned into a panacea (no obedience) to obtain salvation.

Noncompliance-salvationists? So, you seek to obtain salvation by obedience/works and not through faith in Jesus Christ alone? Do you feel the need to "add" your obedience/works to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save you? I once heard someone who is a member of the church of Christ make this statement to me below in blue:

"It is works of obedience and not works of the law or works of merit that help save us."

*Of course, that statement is an oxymoron.

Folks in the church of Christ conflate faith with obedience/works which "follows" salvation through faith in Christ. I've heard multiple folks in the church of Christ say that we are saved through faith "conjoined" with works which culminates in salvation by faith AND WORKS. Now faith that obtains salvation trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation and not in works (Romans 4:5-6) yet saving faith in Christ does not remain "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14-26) That is the balance that gets out of balance by works-salvationists. Man is saved through faith apart from the merit of works yet faith that saves does not remain apart from the presence of works because it's a living faith (Ephesians 2:8-10) and not a bare profession of faith/dead faith. (James 2:14)

 

[Inquisitor]

And what church is doing this?

The strongest example is the Catholic Church.

 

[amazingrace]

Myself, i can do nothing on my own .i do mean nothing . that's a common grace given to ALl, that walk the world believer or non believers some in His Faith, others in false man tempory faith.

do we only receive one grace of God?

thks