Saved by faith alone?

[Play4G]

Paul.

Jesus taught us one IMPORTANT coVENANT yourself does the WORK in OBEDIENCE to do Jesus command to remember him for eternity of his death. By doing his command of the sacraments of his covenant, the Giving thanks to God in communion. Which only a high priest can do and a high priest who entrust this sacrament for the body of church aka the people walking with God. Walking is WORKING.

 

[Play4G]

Can you simply answer the question?

Men, aka yourself does the WORK in OBEDIENCE to do Jesus command to remember him for eternity of his death. By doing his command of the sacraments of his covenant, the Giving thanks to God in communion. Which only a high priest can do and a high priest who entrust this sacrament for the body of church aka the people walking with God. Walking is WORKING.

 

[Genez]

Baptism is our first christian 101 in the body of Christ.......Men, aka yourself does the WORK in OBEDIENCE to do Jesus command to remember him for eternity of his death. By doing his command of the sacraments of his covenant, the Giving thanks to God in communion. Which only a high priest can do and a high priest who entrust this sacrament for the body of church aka the people walking with God. Walking is WORKING.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, ​

whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." 1 Corinthians 12:13​

That never happened when everyone was being baptized by John the Baptist.

Problem is?

With that baptism?
And water baptism?

That makes two baptisms.

Ephesians 4:5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

The Church age changed everything for how believers are to live.
By grace and Truth!

(No longer under Law)



.​

 

[BartholomewB]

This thread is now three years old and is up to over 3,000 posts. Obviously, newcomer that I am, I can’t claim to have read them all. I imagine that Philippians 2:12, “Work out your own salvation,” must have been mentioned more than once. How have posters on the “faith alone” side of the debate managed to harmonize those words of Paul’s with rheir own view?

Php 2:12 at Bible Hub:

Parallel translations:
https://biblehub.com/philippians/2-12.htm

Interlinear translation:
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/philippians/2-12.htm

Concordance:
https://biblehub.com/greek/2716.htm

 

[Larry73]

When Luther pinned these words, the 5 sola statements, his intent was make a point of the word alone. So that faith for example isnt muddled with anything else, particularly works.

Yes, that was Luther's point.... but was it God's? James 2:17 clearly says no.

 

[Churchgoer]

Yes, that was Luther's point.... but was it God's? James 2:17 clearly says no.

I take it as if faith shows no fruit, then it is dead.
True faith bear fruit.

 

[amazingrace]

You are confusing the cause of salvation with the effects of salvation. Christ, as Savior, is the sole source of salvation, hence His title of the Savior. Through that salvation, by the Holy Spirit, we are given a new spirit, a new heart, and a renewed mind by God. Through Scripture and the edification of other saints, we are taught to, and how to manifest those attributes. However, even as a result of salvation, no Christian is able to perform them perfectly in this life. If perfection were required to become saved, we would all fall short. Therefore, those things cannot be understood as requirements for salvation.
As a Christian, you do believe that Christ is the Savior as Scripture clearly states that He is, don't you? Or do you believe His work on the cross was incomplete, needing assistance from man, thereby trivializing His perfect sacrifice?

By the grace of justification received by faith and baptism we have union with God thru Christ, in the communion of saints, empowered by grace and life in the spirit to attain to eternal salvation in glory!

Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing.

phil 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.


Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

thks

 

[amazingrace]

Where are we told that Christ redeemed all people in a general way? We read:

(Tit 2:14 NKJV) who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

(1Pe 1:18-19 NKJV) knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

Both Titus and 1 Peter were written to Christians:

(Tit 1:4 NKJV) To Titus, a true son in our common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.

(1Pe 1:1-2 NKJV) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

So when those epistles say "we" and "us" they don't mean "every human being who has ever existed", but they refer to Christians. I cannot find any reference to Jesus Christ redeeming those who remain unbelievers.

two kinds of redemption or two levels

Christ by His life, death, and resurrection obtained the general redemption Jn 1:16
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

making grace and union possible

justification is this general redemption applied to our souls providing union

col 1:13-14

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

thks

 

[amazingrace]

You say it’s contrary to Eph 2:8-9, but I disagree. I don’t see any conflict between the two passages. In Matt 25:31~46 Jesus is giving his answer to one question. The author of Ephesians is giving an answer to a different question.

eph 2 so lets see what it is about!

what are the possibilities?

a) the general redemption

b) our personal salvation

eph 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

quickend or brought to life

brought to life in grace Jn 1:16

meaning that general redemption by which Christ makes our justification possible

eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

eph 2:9 titus 3:5 2 tim 1:9 not works

refers to the general redemption accomplished by Christ without our participation "works"

redemption is a part of the process of salvation so it is identified as salvation or the salvation in the past tense

eph 2:8 titus 3:5 2 tim 1:9 all use the past tense of salvation or "saved" all refer to the general redemption accomplished by Christ apart from us!

eph 2:8 excludes our participation in the general redemption "not of yourselves"!

eph 2:8 titus 3:5 & 2 tim 1:9 all refer to the general redemption, it’s already past tense when Paul wrote it so it refers something that has already occurred, the redemption accomplished by Christ apart from our involvement. “Not of yourselves”

not our personal salvation but the general redemption!


redemption and justification are not salvation, but parts in the process of salvation!

It does not end with justification as some think, having the gift of justice and righteousness there must be the performance of the deeds of righteousness and these are not dead works, but totally of grace!

Lk 1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Romans 2:6-7

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
(eternal salvation)

thks

 

[amazingrace]

Grace is God's undeserved favour. In that sense it is what lexicographers call a "mass noun". The nearest we get to a verse that says there is more than one grace is this:

(Joh 1:16 NKJV) And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.

I understand that the verse means God gives more of His grace, nit several graces. Plural graces are found in Greek mythology, not in the Bible. But the mythological graces were not undeserved favour, but things like beauty, joy and music.

((Abundance of grace))

Jn 10:10
rom 5:17-20
rom 1:7
rom 16:20
rom 16:24
1 cor 1:3
2 cor 1:2
2 cor 4:15
2 cor 13:14
gal 1:3
eph 1:2
phil 1:2
phil 4:23
eph 6:24
col 1:2
1 thes 1:1
2 thes 1:2
1 tim 1:2
1 tim 1:14
1 tim 6:21
2 tim 1:2
titus 1:1
philemon 1:3
1 pet 1:2
2 pet 1:2
2 Jn 3
heb 4:16

2 cor 4:15
For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.

last verse of scripture!
last word!

rev 22:21
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

 

[amazingrace]

Grace is God's undeserved favour. In that sense it is what lexicographers call a "mass noun". The nearest we get to a verse that says there is more than one grace is this:

(Joh 1:16 NKJV) And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.

I understand that the verse means God gives more of His grace, nit several graces. Plural graces are found in Greek mythology, not in the Bible. But the mythological graces were not undeserved favour, but things like beauty, joy and music.

Jn 10:10 life and life more abundantly

what is this life?

a) grace

b) physical life

c) eternal salvation

thks

 

[amazingrace]

Yes, we participate in growth and sanctification, but we are preserved by the power of God though faith. So that is Grace too.

That's why we have a High Priest. Because we always need grace.

then why does this high priest say that we must pray to persevere? mt 26:41 ...watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation...

and many others too

thks

 

[rogerg]

By the grace of justification received by faith and baptism we have union with God thru Christ, in the communion of saints, empowered by grace and life in the spirit to attain to eternal salvation in glory!

Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing.

phil 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.


Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

thks

Thanks for the reply. I completely agree with those verses, but they actually prove the exact point I was making.
When Jesus says in John 15:5, 'Apart from me you can do nothing,' that is the absolute definition of being spiritually dead without Him. A person cannot cooperate, assist, or do anything to help get themselves saved.
The verses you quoted in Philippians and Colossians about being strengthened to do 'all things' and having 'all patience' are the effects of salvation working inside a believer, not the cause of salvation. Christ does not give us strength so we can work to 'attain' salvation; He saves us completely by His own work, and then He strengthens us to live for Him.
If salvation requires us to successfully 'attain' it through our own endurance, then Christ is no longer a complete Savior—He would just be the helper or a functionary of the salvation process. I personally rest entirely and have complete confidence in His finished sacrifice.
Thanks again for the discussion

 

[DavidLamb]

two kinds of redemption or two levels

Christ by His life, death, and resurrection obtained the general redemption Jn 1:16
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

making grace and union possible

In context, that cannot be the case, because just a few verses earlier, John had written:

(Joh 1:10 -11 NKJV) He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
(Joh 1:11) He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.

As John Gill commented on John 1:16:

"but his fulness of grace and truth is dispensatory, and is in him, on purpose to be communicated unto others: and "of it", the evangelist says, "have all we received"; not all mankind, though they all receive natural light and life from him; nor merely all the prophets of the Old Testament, though they had their gifts and grace from him, who then was, as now, the head of the church; nor only all the apostles of Christ, though these may be principally intended; but all believers, who, though they have not all the same measure of grace, nor the same gifts, yet all have received something: nor is there any reason for discouragement, envy, or reproach."

Jesus did not come to make salvation ("grace and union" to use your phrase) possible, but to save. The angel said to Joseph:

(Mat 1:21 NKJV) And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."

(not: "He will make His people's salvation a possibility.")

Similarly, Paul wrote to Timothy:

(1Ti 1:15 NKJV) This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

(not: "Christ Jesus came into the world to to make the salvation of sinners a possibility.")

justification is this general redemption applied to our souls providing union

col 1:13-14

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

thks

I wonder what meaning you use for "redemption." The entry for "Redemption" in McClintock and Strong's Biblical Cyclopedia begins:

"Redemption, in theology, denotes our recovery from sin and death by the obedience and sacrifice of Christ, who on this account is called the "Redeemer" (Isa 59:20; Job 19:25). "Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro 3:24). "' Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us" (Ga 3:13). "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace" (Eph 1:7). "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with.the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1Pe 1:18-19). "And ye are not your own, for ye are bought with a price" (1Co 6:19-20)."

When we see the word "redemption" in the New Testament, it always refers to Christians, people who have been saved. For example, Paul wrote to the Christians at Corinth:

(1Co 1:30 NKJV) But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—

It is never (as far as I know) used generally of all mankind.

 

[DavidLamb]

((Abundance of grace))

Jn 10:10
rom 5:17-20
rom 1:7
rom 16:20
rom 16:24
1 cor 1:3
2 cor 1:2
2 cor 4:15
2 cor 13:14
gal 1:3
eph 1:2
phil 1:2
phil 4:23
eph 6:24
col 1:2
1 thes 1:1
2 thes 1:2
1 tim 1:2
1 tim 1:14
1 tim 6:21
2 tim 1:2
titus 1:1
philemon 1:3
1 pet 1:2
2 pet 1:2
2 Jn 3
heb 4:16

2 cor 4:15
For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.

last verse of scripture!
last word!

rev 22:21
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

I agree that grace is abundant. My point was that that means a large amount of grace, not a plurality of graces.

 

[DavidLamb]

Jn 10:10 life and life more abundantly

what is this life?

a) grace

b) physical life

c) eternal salvation

thks

Grace is not the same thing as life. I would say that the abundant life Jesus speaks of in John 10:10 is both spiritual life while here on earth, and eternal life in heaven. Certainly nobody merits or deserves such a wonderful thing, and it is because of God's grace that sinners are given abundant life, but that doesn't make abundant life the same thing as grace.

 

[Larry73]

Life can be described as LIVING one's faith as a real and true testament to accepting HIM as our Savior and the sacrifice our lord endured to bring us into HIS kingdom....

 

[Cameron143]

In context, that cannot be the case, because just a few verses earlier, John had written:

(Joh 1:10 -11 NKJV) He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
(Joh 1:11) He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.

As John Gill commented on John 1:16:

"but his fulness of grace and truth is dispensatory, and is in him, on purpose to be communicated unto others: and "of it", the evangelist says, "have all we received"; not all mankind, though they all receive natural light and life from him; nor merely all the prophets of the Old Testament, though they had their gifts and grace from him, who then was, as now, the head of the church; nor only all the apostles of Christ, though these may be principally intended; but all believers, who, though they have not all the same measure of grace, nor the same gifts, yet all have received something: nor is there any reason for discouragement, envy, or reproach."

Jesus did not come to make salvation ("grace and union" to use your phrase) possible, but to save. The angel said to Joseph:

(Mat 1:21 NKJV) And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."

(not: "He will make His people's salvation a possibility.")

Similarly, Paul wrote to Timothy:

(1Ti 1:15 NKJV) This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

(not: "Christ Jesus came into the world to to make the salvation of sinners a possibility.")




I wonder what meaning you use for "redemption." The entry for "Redemption" in McClintock and Strong's Biblical Cyclopedia begins:

"Redemption, in theology, denotes our recovery from sin and death by the obedience and sacrifice of Christ, who on this account is called the "Redeemer" (Isa 59:20; Job 19:25). "Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro 3:24). "' Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us" (Ga 3:13). "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace" (Eph 1:7). "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with.the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1Pe 1:18-19). "And ye are not your own, for ye are bought with a price" (1Co 6:19-20)."

When we see the word "redemption" in the New Testament, it always refers to Christians, people who have been saved. For example, Paul wrote to the Christians at Corinth:

(1Co 1:30 NKJV) But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—

It is never (as far as I know) used generally of all mankind.

You make a very salient point that is so often overlooked and which bears repeating: Jesus didn't come to make salvation possible; He came to actually save. The emphasis when considering salvation isn't the individual and their choice, but Christ and His cross.

 

[amazingrace]

Thanks for the reply. I completely agree with those verses, but they actually prove the exact point I was making.
When Jesus says in John 15:5, 'Apart from me you can do nothing,' that is the absolute definition of being spiritually dead without Him. A person cannot cooperate, assist, or do anything to help get themselves saved.
The verses you quoted in Philippians and Colossians about being strengthened to do 'all things' and having 'all patience' are the effects of salvation working inside a believer, not the cause of salvation. Christ does not give us strength so we can work to 'attain' salvation; He saves us completely by His own work, and then He strengthens us to live for Him.
If salvation requires us to successfully 'attain' it through our own endurance, then Christ is no longer a complete Savior—He would just be the helper or a functionary of the salvation process. I personally rest entirely and have complete confidence in His finished sacrifice.
Thanks again for the discussion

It is finished refers to the passover

"effects of salvation working inside a believer, not the cause of salvation" how do you know this?

mk 13:13 mt 10:22 mt 24:13 he who endures to the end shall be saved

rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

thks

 

[Genez]

You make a very salient point that is so often overlooked and which bears repeating: Jesus didn't come to make salvation possible; He came to actually save. The emphasis when considering salvation isn't the individual and their choice, but Christ and His cross.

To save anyone?
You must make first salvation possible.

Having tunnel vision kills the life of the Word's power.