If we have to start by 'faithing into Him', then the ultimate deciding factor in our salvation is our own initial performance, not Christ's. That would make the one doing the 'faithing' their own savior, while Jesus just acts only as a facilitator. But Scripture says Christ alone is the Savior. As such, He has satisfied all of the requirements for salvation on behalf of those whom He saves.
Saved by faith alone?
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If we have to start by 'faithing into Him', then the ultimate deciding factor in our salvation is our own initial performance, not Christ's. That would make the one doing the 'faithing' their own savior, while Jesus just acts only as a facilitator. But Scripture says Christ alone is the Savior. As such, He has satisfied all of the requirements for salvation on behalf of those whom He saves.
It's a paradox Roger, It's not all of Him, and it's certainly not all of us, and it's not a partnership either.
Your understanding just doesn't hold water.
He provides the Grace the unmerited favor, i think we agree on that. But then you say he provides the response to that grace, faith and faithing, which is really the response to the call of the Father we're talking about.
Why would the Father call anyone out If the called Don't have a chance to respond because Jesus has responded for them already?
Biblical faith is defined in the Vines Greek dictionary as " a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " suggesting that is done for us by Him just opens up a lot of questions it would be a waste of time to contemplate.
Thinking about it Roger, I think your really saying there is no faith needed, only believing. The mistranslated word believe has morphed into whatever point your trying to make.
I appreciate your willingness to discuss the creed in depth.
I see that you disagree with "God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (Rev. 3:20)", because "to become a Christian, Jesus is the one who does the accepting, and the excepting."
I encourage you to cite the Scriptural basis when you disagree, because I am unconvinced without such.
Be sure to include Rom. 5:5 and 8:9 in your explanation/harmonization.
Thanks.
Over...
I think there is nothing required whatsoever from those whom God had elected to salvation, to become saved - not faith nor believing nor anything else - that Jesus, as Savior, saves entirely and completely those chosen to salvation as a free gift. Otherwise, His title would have to be changed to something besides Savior. He either is 100% the Savior, or He is not at all, there isn't any in between. That's what makes salvation entirely by God's grace and mercy and not by our works. Look again at these verses. No contribution by man of any kind is made therein for him to become saved - it is all by God's grace through Jesus Christ, Savior
[Tit 3:4-7 KJV]
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
We're are talking about the very beginning of the relationship right. The part when we are none of his Rom . 8;9. Accepting Him will not change that because accepting Him is not what faith is. A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender is what faith is.
At this beginning stage, because we are not talking about someone who is His yet, no scripture is required.
As a rule I don't get into the scriptures until I'm sure the one I'm talking to is His also. I'm on the fence about you.
I think that respectfully, you do not realize what the role of Savior is or of what the Savior has achieved in terms of salvation. I suggest that you contemplate on that, and should you come to the conclusion that Christ alone is the one who saves fully and completely and that man has no part in it, we can resume the discussion. Until then I think that we will just be talking past each other.
Well, that post reverted to your bad habit of judgmental monologue.
Want to sleep on it and try dialogue again tomorrow?
What I was talking about was why you disagree with "God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (Rev. 3:20)". You said it was because "to become a Christian, Jesus is the one who does the accepting, and the excepting."
I wanted you to explain what that means, citing the Scriptural basis when you disagree, including Rom. 5:5 and 8:9 in your explanation/harmonization, because Rev. 3:20 says Jesus wants to come into our lives, Rom. 8:9 indicates that Jesus does so as the Spirit, and Rom. 5:5 says the Spirit is Love, which is the right relationship.
Over...
OK, maybe it would be easier if you tell me what a called out ones part in the salvation process is?
What choices does the potential Christian make to be in Christ? I'm sensing your answer would be just believing right?
Our problem is with me understanding what a Saviour is, it's what the definition of faith is. Until you come to terms with the true understanding of faith , our discussion hasn't even started.
None. they are given by God a new spirit, a new heart, and a renewed mind as a result of salvation, from which, they then manifest the attributes of salvation, but as result, not cause. Before being saved, the unsaved are spiritually dead in sin and incapable of producing true faith or belief nor of truly knowing the things of the Sprit because they are spiritually discerned.
True faith is given to those whom God saves as a fruit of the Spirit - but it does not originate from within man. From that faith, they come into a true, abiding belief and trust in Jesus Christ alone as the Savior.
It is unmerited favour to condemn people to hell? I don't disagree with your positive view of grace. It's when you say that damnation is also grace that you get it wrong.
God did not create man unholy. He created man innocent. However, man was incomplete. God gave man a choice, fundamentally to obey or disobey. Man disobeyed and the rest is the miserable history of fallen man.
This is exactly why God needed to send His Son to give us new life, that is not sinful but righteous and holy. That is why Lord Jesus is called the last Adam. As Adam caused the death of all mankind, so Lord Jesus brought eternal life to all who will receive Him.
The Cross terminates the wicked nature that is hostile to God. Resurrection is life to replace the fallen nature. God includes us in Christ when we believe. Then we become new creations in Christ. Those who reject Jesus stay dead in trespass and sin.
According Ephesians 2:1-10, we were "dead in trespasses and sins" before becoming Christians. Those verses, which I have quoted many times, so I won't do so again here, tell us the many things God did to achieve our salvation. He loved us, made us alive, raised us up, made us sit in heavenly places, given us His grace (undeserved favour) and prepared good works for us to do as Christians. Yes, verse 8 does say that we are saved by grace through faith, but there is no suggestion that we could either be saved by faith, or exhibit faith before God made us alive, raised us up, etc. That would be like expecting Lazarus in his tomb to display faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and come forth from his tomb before Jesus raised him from the dead.
Sorry, I misunderstood you. I did not realize you meant that I am telling you the truth with every word I speak.
I agree with that discernment!
David, the problem with your argument is that it assumes "dead in trespasses and sins" means a person is incapable of hearing God or responding to Him. Yet Jesus said;
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live. (John 5:25 ASV)
Notice the order given by Jesus. The spiritually dead hear His voice, those who hear respond, and then they receive life. Jesus never says people must first be made alive before they can believe.
Throughout His ministry, Jesus continually called people to make a choice: Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. (Matthew 11:28 ASV)
If any man willeth to do his will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it is of God, or whether I speak from myself.(John 7:17 ASV)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:16 ASV)
These invitations only make sense if people are able to hear, repent, and believe when God calls them.
The comparison with Lazarus also goes beyond what Ephesians says. Lazarus was physically dead. Ephesians speaks of people who are spiritually dead because of sin. Jesus Himself used the word "dead" to describe spiritually lost people who were still physically alive: Follow me; and leave the dead to bury their own dead. (Matthew 8:22 ASV)
Clearly, those burying the dead were alive physically. Jesus called them "dead" because they were separated from God, not because they were incapable of responding to Him.
Finally, Ephesians 2 is describing what God has done for those who are in Christ. It is a beautiful passage about God's grace and mercy toward believers. It does not say that God first regenerates a person so that he can believe. That conclusion is being read into the passage.
If we let Jesus interpret this subject, His teaching is consistent: He calls sinners to hear His voice, repent, believe, follow Him, and those who do receive life. Nowhere does Jesus teach that a person must first be made spiritually alive before he is able to believe.
David, you knew all of this before you have changed, I have been reading your posts for a few years now so I see the change, and you are pushing Christ away and embracing the teachings of men instead. Just remember that only the words of Christ are living waters that give eternal life.
I think you must be confusing me with somebody else. You say that you have been reading my posts for a few years now, but I only joined Christian Chat last year, in February 2025. I have believed as I do now for many years, indeed since soon after becoming a Christian about 55 years ago, so I don't understand what you wrote about me having changed since my first posts on CC, unless, as I say, you have confused me with somebody else.
Again, I am glad you (@DavidLamb) are not a believer in tulipism, which teaches that God does not provide the non-elect the opportunity to become elect, but apparently you do not realize the logical contradiction by believing no one has the opportunity
to become elect unless the Father draws them, if you think God only draws a few.
The way out of that double-think is to harmonize John 6:44 and 12:32 by believing that God draws everyone,
but some souls resist (per Rom. 2:4-5).
Again, being a Scripture harmonizer is good and follows the example of Jesus,
whereas the devil was a proof-texter (per Matt. 4:5-7).
Over...
I am afraid I must have confused you by what I have written in one of my posts. and for that I apologise. I believe that God's election/choosing took place before the foundation of the world, as Paul says in Ephesians 1:3-4. All sinners who come to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and are saved show by doing so that they are among those whom God chose. You say that God draws everyone. Does God also give everyone to Christ?
(Joh 6:37 NKJV) All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
If yes, why does not everyone come to Christ? If no, why do you have a problem with agreeing that God does not draw everyone?
Incidentally, I do believe the doctrines that the acronym TULIP stands for, but they are not, and were never intended to be, a summary of Calvin's beliefs/teachings. Rather, they were five specific points of doctrine written in response to the Arminian Five Articles of Remonstrance.
Yes, your statements have been confusing, because in one place you seemed to disagree with tuilip but now you agree with it.
In Eph. 1:3-4 what took place was God's plan of salvation, which Paul explains in detail in Romans and briefly in Eph. 2:8-10.
John 6:37 should be harmonized with 2Tim. 2:11-13, which indicates that God does not cast out, but saints can jump out.
The obvious reason everyone does not cooperate with God's drawing is because humans have MFW. As I have said before,
God initiates/teaches/draws; souls may cooperate/learn/remain--or not/ignore/withdraw. Why do you have a problem with that?
Some and perhaps most of Calvin's Institutes are okay, but tulip is blasphemous/heretical/corrupts the Gospel, which Paul condemned (in Gal. 1:6-9). Thus, I urge you to repent of demeaning divine omnilove and justness.