Saved by faith alone?

[Watchman22]

It is unmerited favour to condemn people to hell? I don't disagree with your positive view of grace. It's when you say that damnation is also grace that you get it wrong.

When I made the statement "those who choose the wide path or condemnation go to hell in A KIND of state of grace. " I hadn't thought much about those in that state of being.

My knee-jerk response was based on the fact their sins were covered by Christ just like those who chose the narrow path. The difference is in what they chose to faithe in, what they chose to surrender themselves to.

So thats how I came to the quick conclusion, they are condemned in a kind of state of grace. I don't think that is hard to understand.

 

[Watchman22]

According Ephesians 2:1-10, we were "dead in trespasses and sins" before becoming Christians. Those verses, which I have quoted many times, so I won't do so again here, tell us the many things God did to achieve our salvation. He loved us, made us alive, raised us up, made us sit in heavenly places, given us His grace (undeserved favour) and prepared good works for us to do as Christians. Yes, verse 8 does say that we are saved by grace through faith, but there is no suggestion that we could either be saved by faith, or exhibit faith before God made us alive, raised us up, etc. That would be like expecting Lazarus in his tomb to display faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and come forth from his tomb before Jesus raised him from the dead.

Faithing or pisteuo in the Greek used 248 times in the NT, is the one thing He will not force upon us. He can do everything else for us, but we gotta faithe. He could provide redemption, and covering for our sins. He could provide direction, He can create mansions, pour out His spirit on us, but without faith ( a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender) it is impossible to please God.

And He doesn't faithe for us!

You wrongly understand pisteuo to be believing, but let's use that incorrect word with your understanding.
Your saying that God is believing for you, no effort or choice on your part to do so.

Ya, it's non biblical, and ridiculous.

 

[Watchman22]

Well, that post reverted to your bad habit of judgmental monologue.
Want to sleep on it and try dialogue again tomorrow?

What I was talking about was why you disagree with "God’s

GWH,
We're not ready to look at scripture yet, because we still don't agree on what saving faith is.

What you are saying in your creed is that someone at the beginning of the salvation process can by accepting what they have heard about Jesus, receive the Holy spirit.

Your saying that the first act of faith is "accepting Jesus as our lord." Remembering at that point we are not His yet, an enemy .

The Greek word we are talking about is pisteuo, the verb form of faith, pistis. Show me in either in Strongs or Vines Greek dictionary where "accepting Jesus as Lord" is the definition of pisteuo .

Lets get this part understood before we move forward.

 

[GWH]

GWH,
We're not ready to look at scripture yet, because we still don't agree on what saving faith is.

What you are saying in your creed is that someone at the beginning of the salvation process can by accepting what they have heard about Jesus, receive the Holy spirit.

Your saying that the first act of faith is "accepting Jesus as our lord." Remembering at that point we are not His yet, an enemy .

The Greek word we are talking about is pisteuo, the verb form of faith, pistis. Show me in either in Strongs or Vines Greek dictionary where "accepting Jesus as Lord" is the definition of pisteuo .

Lets get this part understood before we move forward.

On the contrary, the best way to understand what saving faith means is by looking at what Scripture says, not merely at what Strong's or Vines says, so we should begin by considering the Scriptures I cited:

Acts 16:31 - Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.

2Cor. 4:5 - What we preach is Jesus Christ as Lord.

Col. 2:6 - Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him.

Rom. 10:9 - If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

John 8:42 - If God were your Father, you would love me.

John 3:16 - God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Phil. 2:11 - Every tongue should acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Rom. 3:22 - Righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

Rom. 3:26 - God justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Rom. 5:11 - We boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Luke 2:11 - A Savior has been born to you; he is Messiah, the Lord.
John 14:6 - I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 13:35 - You are my disciples if you love one another.

IOW, what I said is what Scripture means: "Accept/believe/receive/declare/love/acknowledge/have faith in/etc. Jesus as Messiah and Lord, and you will be saved."

Lets get this part understood as the definition of pisteuo before we move forward.

Right?

5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (Rev. 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4). Such cooperation can be termed “the surrendered life”.

6. This creed summarizes revelation of the NT Gospel/Truth (Matt. 26:13, John 14:6), which fulfilled the OT revelation (Matt. 5:17, John 19:30, Heb. 7:11-10:10) and culminates the search for salvation by souls who know only general revelation (Rom. 1:20, 2:14-16, Matt. 7:12). Seeking begins when souls love truth/repent of false beliefs (2Thes. 2:10&13, Matt. 4:17, 7:7), which is the Way to eternal life God wills, who is the Lord Jesus (Matt. 7:14, John 1:14, 4:24, 14:6). Lacking this love leads to believing lies and debauchery (Matt. 7:6, Rom. 1:18&25-26, 2Thes. 2:11-12).

 

[Watchman22]

On the contrary, the best way to understand what saving faith means is by looking at what Scripture says, not merely at what Strong's or Vines says, so we should begin by considering the Scriptures I cited:

Acts 16:31 - Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.

2Cor. 4:5 - What we preach is Jesus Christ as Lord.

Col. 2:6 - Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him.

Rom. 10:9 - If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

John 8:42 - If God were your Father, you would love me.

John 3:16 - God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Phil. 2:11 - Every tongue should acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Rom. 3:22 - Righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

Rom. 3:26 - God justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Rom. 5:11 - We boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Luke 2:11 - A Savior has been born to you; he is Messiah, the Lord.
John 14:6 - I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 13:35 - You are my disciples if you love one another.

IOW, what I said is what Scripture means: "Accept/believe/receive/declare/love/acknowledge/have faith in/etc. Jesus as Messiah and Lord, and you will be saved."

Lets get this part understood as the definition of pisteuo before we move forward.

Right?

5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (Rev. 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4). Such cooperation can be termed “the surrendered life”.

6. This creed summarizes revelation of the NT Gospel/Truth (Matt. 26:13, John 14:6), which fulfilled the OT revelation (Matt. 5:17, John 19:30, Heb. 7:11-10:10) and culminates the search for salvation by souls who know only general revelation (Rom. 1:20, 2:14-16, Matt. 7:12). Seeking begins when souls love truth/repent of false beliefs (2Thes. 2:10&13, Matt. 4:17, 7:7), which is the Way to eternal life God wills, who is the Lord Jesus (Matt. 7:14, John 1:14, 4:24, 14:6). Lacking this love leads to believing lies and debauchery (Matt. 7:6, Rom. 1:18&25-26, 2Thes. 2:11-12).

How can we look at scripture when we don't agree on what the words mean? Your a smart guy, that must come first!

So all this and your one of those who can't get past the English translation?

Your standing on being a believer, just like Gods word says. Only Gods word was written in Hebrew and Greek, not in English. And the Greek doesn't say what the English does.

Are you really going to stop exercising that part of you that wants to continue to learn, just because your not comfortable talking about the Greek?

 

[GWH]

How can we look at scripture when we don't agree on what the words mean? Your a smart guy, that must come first!

So all this and your one of those who can't get past the English translation?

Your standing on being a believer, just like Gods word says. Only Gods word was written in Hebrew and Greek, not in English. And the Greek doesn't say what the English does.

Are you really going to stop exercising that part of you that wants to continue to learn, just because your not comfortable talking about the Greek?

Again, we can begin with Strong's and Vine's for the basic meaning/translation, but in order to understand the meaning more completely one must consider/harmonize its various synonymous terms that are used in Scripture:

"Accept/believe/receive/declare/love/acknowledge/have faith in/etc. Jesus as Messiah and Lord, and you will be saved."
Surely this truth is obvious!

I quoted the Scripture; now you can quote S & V.
(IOW, both-and; together we will make a great team :^)

 

[Genez]

That's your misunderstanding of election. While individuals are chosen before creation, they are saved in space and time. While the gospel goes forth to most people, it is only effectual for those who believe.

Ephesians 1:4

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. ​

It is you who are misunderstanding what "chosen in Him" means.

It says specifically "chosen in Him."

It does not simply say, "chosen"...

We need to get a perspective on how God can operate.

For... Where was the woman before Adam was placed in a deep sleep by the Lord?
The woman's body was where? "In Adam."
The Bride of Adam was in him!

What Church age believers have been chosen in Him for what?
To be His Bride!
Hence... The Church is "the Bride of Christ."

Not chosen to save us.
But chosen for what should become of us once we are regenerated.

Throughout all history there have been many believers.
But, out of those billions?
Only some of them were chosen by God to be His Bride.

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. ​

​

​

Hope that helps some here.​

 

[Cameron143]

Ephesians 1:4

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. ​

It is you who are misunderstanding what "chosen in Him" means.

It says specifically "chosen in Him."

It does not simply say, "chosen"...

We need to get a perspective on how God can operate.

For... Where was the woman before Adam was placed in a deep sleep by the Lord?
The woman's body was where? "In Adam."
The Bride of Adam was in him!

What Church age believers have been chosen in Him for what?
To be His Bride!
Hence... The Church is "the Bride of Christ."

Not chosen to save us.
But chosen for what should become of us once we are regenerated.

Throughout all history there have been many believers.
But, out of those billions?
Only some of them were chosen by God to be His Bride.

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. ​

​

​

Hope that helps some here.​

For He CHOSE US in Him...

Us is a group of individuals.

Us is not them.

Them is not chosen.

 

[Watchman22]

Again, we can begin with Strong's and Vine's for the basic meaning/translation, but in order to understand the meaning more completely one must consider/harmonize its various synonymous terms that are used in Scripture:

"Accept/believe/receive/declare/love/acknowledge/have faith in/etc. Jesus as Messiah and Lord, and you will be saved."
Surely this truth is obvious!

I quoted the Scripture; now you can quote S & V.
(IOW, both-and; together we will make a great team :^)

G, most of those words you sited aren't even in the definition of pisteuo. That is you trying to drag old understandings with you. Those words play there part at the right time. Right now we need to agree on a foundation for the act of faith yhat saves, and it's a personal surrender to him and a life inspired by such surrender, a commitment.

 

[GWH]

G, most of those words you sited aren't even in the definition of pisteuo. That is you trying to drag old understandings with you. Those words play there part at the right time. Right now we need to agree on a foundation for the act of faith yhat saves, and it's a personal surrender to him and a life inspired by such surrender, a commitment.

You do not agree that "Lord" connotes personal surrender and commitment?
Those are also old understandings of mine.

 

[Genez]

For He CHOSE US in Him...

Us is a group of individuals.

Us is not them.

Them is not chosen.

That does not change anything I said.

Go sober up...

 

[Cameron143]

That does not change anything I said.

Go sober up...

How many individuals chosen in Him are not saved?

 

[Genez]

How many individuals chosen in Him are not saved?

I explained something that some may find helpful to understand.

Now you are determined to obscure things and confuse everything so the good thought will be forgotten.
You are the enemy's tool.

I wonder why you keep choosing that side?

 

[Cameron143]

I explained something that some may find helpful to understand.

Now you are determined to obscure things and confuse everything so the good thought will be forgotten.
You are the enemy's tool.

I wonder why you keep choosing that side?

What you do is refuse to deal my posts, but choose some ancillary aspect of a topic and expound upon it as if I don't understand or assume some authority as if I view you as a teacher and not a peer. Then you become insulting if I don't admire or agree with your understanding. And not just me. This is your modus operandi. Looks to me like you are helping the enemy. God's team is known for the love that characterizes their behavior.

Why do you choose to disparage others rather than love them?

Also, how many chosen in Him are unsaved?

 

[Genez]

What you do is refuse to deal my posts,

Because you are usually up to no good.

 

[Cameron143]

Because you are usually up to no good.

Grace and peace.

 

[Genez]

Grace and peace.

Pray to the Father in Jesus name to give you Bible doctrine for EVERY AREA of your life.

If you can agree with what you are praying?
You will not be denied.

 

[Genez]

Why do you choose to disparage others rather than love them?

Know what it is.
Here is love....

Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time.
After that, have nothing to do with them. You may be sure that such
people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned. Titus 3:10-11

........

 

[Gideon300]

According Ephesians 2:1-10, we were "dead in trespasses and sins" before becoming Christians. Those verses, which I have quoted many times, so I won't do so again here, tell us the many things God did to achieve our salvation. He loved us, made us alive, raised us up, made us sit in heavenly places, given us His grace (undeserved favour) and prepared good works for us to do as Christians. Yes, verse 8 does say that we are saved by grace through faith, but there is no suggestion that we could either be saved by faith, or exhibit faith before God made us alive, raised us up, etc. That would be like expecting Lazarus in his tomb to display faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and come forth from his tomb before Jesus raised him from the dead.

It seems almost impossible to get Christians to understand the truth. It is grace that saves us. The means is faith. All that means is that God saves those who believe the gospel and who put their trust in Him. If there was no grace, no amount of faith could save anyone.

 

[Watchman22]

It seems almost impossible to get Christians to understand the truth. It is grace that saves us. The means is faith. All that means is that God saves those who believe the gospel and who put their trust in Him. If there was no grace, no amount of faith could save anyone.

That scenario breaks down when God calls out someone that has never heard the gospel.
But true faith, a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender, that faith response can fulfill the condition either way.