Saved by faith alone?

[DavidLamb]

Faithing or pisteuo in the Greek used 248 times in the NT, is the one thing He will not force upon us. He can do everything else for us, but we gotta faithe. He could provide redemption, and covering for our sins. He could provide direction, He can create mansions, pour out His spirit on us, but without faith ( a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender) it is impossible to please God.

And He doesn't faithe for us!

You wrongly understand pisteuo to be believing, but let's use that incorrect word with your understanding.
Your saying that God is believing for you, no effort or choice on your part to do so.

Ya, it's non biblical, and ridiculous.

Believing, or "faithing" to use your coined word, is given to sinners by God (but not forced upon them):

(Php 1:29 KJV) For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

I don't know New Testament Greek, but I understand from concordances that having faith and believing are the same thing. For example, the Greek word "pistis" is often translated into English as "faith". For example:

(Mar 11:22 KJV) And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

But sometimes it is translated as "believe" or "belief":

(Rom 3:26 KJV) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

(Heb 10:39 KJV) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

(2Th 2:13) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

A closely related Greek word, "pisteuo", is usually translated into English as "believe". For example:

(Mat 24:23 KJV) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Greek has a verb form of "pistis", (which is usually translated as "faith", but sometimes "believe" or "belief"), and that verb form is "pisteuo." The English noun "faith" doesn't have a verb form.

Perhaps somebody with a knowledge of New Testament Greek can tell us whether "believe" is indeed (as you claim) a mistranslation. I don't think it is, but I repeat, I don't know Greek.

 

[GWH]

Believing, or "faithing" to use your coined word, is given to sinners by God (but not forced upon them):

(Php 1:29 KJV) For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

I don't know New Testament Greek, but I understand from concordances that having faith and believing are the same thing. For example, the Greek word "pistis" is often translated into English as "faith". For example:

(Mar 11:22 KJV) And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

But sometimes it is translated as "believe" or "belief":

(Rom 3:26 KJV) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

(Heb 10:39 KJV) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

(2Th 2:13) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

A closely related Greek word, "pisteuo", is usually translated into English as "believe". For example:

(Mat 24:23 KJV) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Greek has a verb form of "pistis", (which is usually translated as "faith", but sometimes "believe" or "belief"), and that verb form is "pisteuo." The English noun "faith" doesn't have a verb form.

Perhaps somebody with a knowledge of New Testament Greek can tell us whether "believe" is indeed (as you claim) a mistranslation. I don't think it is, but I repeat, I don't know Greek.

Yes, and other words mean essentially the same thing as faithing/believing, including those in Scriptures I cited previously:

Acts 16:31 - Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.
2Cor. 4:5 - What we preach is Jesus Christ as Lord.
Col. 2:6 - Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him.
Rom. 10:9 - If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
John 8:42 - If God were your Father, you would love me.
John 3:16 - God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Phil. 2:11 - Every tongue should acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Rom. 3:22 - Righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
Rom. 3:26 - God justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
Rom. 5:11 - We boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Luke 2:11 - A Savior has been born to you; he is Messiah, the Lord.
John 14:6 - I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 13:35 - You are my disciples if you love one another.

IOW, "Accept/believe/receive/declare/love/acknowledge/have faith in/boast in/etc. Jesus as Messiah and Lord, and you will be saved."

The best way to understand what saving faith means is by looking at what both Scripture and translators say in order to get the most complete definition of pisteuo.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Not sure what your point is but the question is rather simple.

Does the phrase "saved by faith" mean the same as "saved by faith alone"?

How about this.

Does the phrase "I am going to the store" mean the same as "I am going to the store alone"?

Again, it is not a hard question to answer unless you are trying to defend a certain theology.

People who are bound to faith alone regeneration theology are forced to add "alone" into rather simple and general verses in order to have some validity to their narrative.

As a result, they are also forced to negate other verses that speak of obedience as part the gospel.

You have a major problem to begin with. We are not saved by Faith. We are saved by grace.

This grace is only Applied the moment we in faith call out.

Your issue is your trying to defend a certain theology. Your question is flawered based onb that fact

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Well since you seem to think you know what faith is, tell me what happens when you received the mind of Christ. What physical thing happened to you when His mind entered yours?

Of course you have no idea what I'm talking about. Gods word doesn't go into detail when that happens, it has to happen to you for you to know. And when it happens to you, you can also see it when it's in others.

You should have kept reading, pistis is used 245 times, pisteuo is used an additional 248 times.

Trust this surrendered life, the faith that saves is a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender, i would bet the mind of Christ on it.

Your missing part of the equation.

Faith is not just surrendering to him. It is a trust in his promise. It is a trust in his gospel.

Abraham is the father of faith and shows us what it is.

Romans 4:
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

1. It is of faith (not of works. otherwise it is not of grace)
2. It is based on a hope (faith is the substance of things hoped for. the evidence of things Not seen Heb 11: 1)
3. It is not a faith that is wavering. it is a confident faith.
4. It is one who is fully convinced that what He promised he will do


The promise of God is whoever trust in him will never perish but have eternal life.
The promise of God is he will make us into a new creation. born of incorruptable seed
The promise of God is he will change us.

If your faith is you trustin gyourself.. then you have failed to trust God

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

They are taught this from a young age.

I think they are taught this by Satan, it is human wisdom that we must earn our salvation.. It is against our nature to say it must be given to us because we can not deserve it. That hurts our pride.. and why so many fail to see it.

 

[Gideon300]

That scenario breaks down when God calls out someone that has never heard the gospel.
But true faith, a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender, that faith response can fulfill the condition either way.

Tell me one person who has been saved without hearing the gospel.

 

[GWH]

Tell me one person who has been saved without hearing the gospel.

That depends on the meaning of "gospel"/good news. Before the NT Gospel was revealed, not one person heard it,
which includes everyone living B.C. and millions of people who have lived A.D. However, Paul indicated that God provides everyone in the world an opportunity to be saved by means of general revelation of what might be called a foreshadowed or proto-gospel.

General revelation includes meditating on the natural world or God’s supernatural work and moral conscience. Paul said men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and divine nature (love) are manifested by creation (Rom. 1:20), and because this proto-gospel has been proclaimed to everyone under heaven implicitly or in pre-NT foreshadowings (Col. 1:23, Rom. 10:13-18, Gal. 3:8). He also taught that all normal human adults have an inner conscience or “common” sense (Rom. 2:14-16), which manifests morality
or a moral Authority in every culture (cf. Acts 17:24-31), beginning with the Golden Rule (Matt. 7:12).

God’s just judgment is illustrated by Jesus in the Parable of the Talents (Matt. 25:14-29), which indicates that God will judge all souls on the basis of the Truth/Word/Gospel/Christ they have received (cf. John 8:31-32, 2Thes. 2:10, 1Tim. 2:3-4).

 

[Watchman22]

Believing, or "faithing" to use your coined word, is given to sinners by God (but not forced upon them):

(Php 1:29 KJV) For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

I don't know New Testament Greek, but I understand from concordances that having faith and believing are the same thing. For example, the Greek word "pistis" is often translated into English as "faith". For example:

(Mar 11:22 KJV) And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

But sometimes it is translated as "believe" or "belief":

(Rom 3:26 KJV) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

(Heb 10:39 KJV) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

(2Th 2:13) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

A closely related Greek word, "pisteuo", is usually translated into English as "believe". For example:

(Mat 24:23 KJV) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Greek has a verb form of "pistis", (which is usually translated as "faith", but sometimes "believe" or "belief"), and that verb form is "pisteuo." The English noun "faith" doesn't have a verb form.

Perhaps somebody with a knowledge of New Testament Greek can tell us whether "believe" is indeed (as you claim) a mistranslation. I don't think it is, but I repeat, I don't know Greek.

Yes David he gave us the "ABILITY " to faithe into Him. Part of the human being. But He doesn't faithe for us.

That would be like saying, because He gave us the ability to eat, He does the eating for us. Fundamentally incorrect.

 

[Watchman22]

Your missing part of the equation.

Faith is not just surrendering to him. It is a trust in his promise. It is a trust in his gospel.

Abraham is the father of faith and shows us what it is.

Romans 4:
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

1. It is of faith (not of works. otherwise it is not of grace)
2. It is based on a hope (faith is the substance of things hoped for. the evidence of things Not seen Heb 11: 1)
3. It is not a faith that is wavering. it is a confident faith.
4. It is one who is fully convinced that what He promised he will do


The promise of God is whoever trust in him will never perish but have eternal life.
The promise of God is he will make us into a new creation. born of incorruptable seed
The promise of God is he will change us.

If your faith is you trustin gyourself.. then you have failed to trust God

OK EG,

The first time we make a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by the surrender, we are not His yet. We are His enemy at that point.

Because I'm hyper focused on the very beginning response to the call of the Father (for the called out ones here) doesn't mean I'm not in a trusting relationship with Him.

I've been surrendering my life and will over to Him for38 years. The trust isn't the only other thing I have to share with you and others. 38 years of how to live in Christ by faith ( a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender) , and i can't get past the first surrender here.

I'm Bursting at the seams to share this lifelong experience, but it can't until someone is at least started the process. No one will accept what true faith is.

Are we there, is that my purpose, to prove to God we are there, the point where no one will endure sound doctrine?

 

[Genez]

Yes, and other words mean essentially the same thing as faithing/believing, including those in Scriptures I cited previously:

Acts 16:31 - Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.
2Cor. 4:5 - What we preach is Jesus Christ as Lord.
Col. 2:6 - Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him.
Rom. 10:9 - If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
John 8:42 - If God were your Father, you would love me.
John 3:16 - God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Phil. 2:11 - Every tongue should acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Rom. 3:22 - Righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
Rom. 3:26 - God justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
Rom. 5:11 - We boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Luke 2:11 - A Savior has been born to you; he is Messiah, the Lord.
John 14:6 - I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 13:35 - You are my disciples if you love one another.

IOW, "Accept/believe/receive/declare/love/acknowledge/have faith in/boast in/etc. Jesus as Messiah and Lord, and you will be saved."

The best way to understand what saving faith means is by looking at what both Scripture and translators say in order to get the most complete definition of pisteuo.

It is not so much 'saved by faith.'
It's... Faith because we are saved.

God gives faith to the saved.
Why?

It begins with us being totally unaware of what is taking place in the invisible realm.

God, knowing those who are His?
He gives them faith so we can begin to understand what is going on.

......

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

OK EG,

The first time we make a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by the surrender, we are not His yet. We are His enemy at that point.

Because I'm hyper focused on the very beginning response to the call of the Father (for the called out ones here) doesn't mean I'm not in a trusting relationship with Him.

I've been surrendering my life and will over to Him for38 years. The trust isn't the only other thing I have to share with you and others. 38 years of how to live in Christ by faith ( a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender) , and i can't get past the first surrender here.

I'm Bursting at the seams to share this lifelong experience, but it can't until someone is at least started the process. No one will accept what true faith is.

Are we there, is that my purpose, to prove to God we are there, the point where no one will endure sound doctrine?

Did you call out and recieve his salvation?

that is what saves you. Not you surrenduring to him.. You will never meet his expectations in this lifetime. hence you require his grace. or you will suffer his wrath

For it is by grace I have been saved.

God does not force us to take his salvation. hence we recieve it through faith.

Not by surrenduring. But by trusting..

The tax collector did nto surrender. He fell on his knees unable to look to heaven and cried out for Gods mercy.

 

[Watchman22]

Tell me one person who has been saved without hearing the gospel.

Was there a little voice in your head saying that was a ridiculous question when you asked that? I hope so.

So Entertaining your question.

1) anyone in the OT never heard the good news , only prophetically.
2) anyone who has ever cried out to the Father, and had never heard the gospel.
3) most of the world hadn't heard the gospel until the last 100 years. What about those, the Father couldn't call t hose ones? Does hearing the gospel hand

 

[Watchman22]

Did you call out and recieve his salvation?

that is what saves you. Not you surrenduring to him.. You will never meet his expectations in this lifetime. hence you require his grace. or you will suffer his wrath

For it is by grace I have been saved.

God does not force us to take his salvation. hence we recieve it through faith.

Not by surrenduring. But by trusting..

The tax collector did nto surrender. He fell on his knees unable to look to heaven and cried out for Gods mercy.

Salvation is by Grace, "THROUGH FAITH "

the through faith part of that statement "IS" " a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " exact words from the definition of pisteuo in the Vines Greek dictionary.

A continually surrendered life is what faith and trust in Him is. The surrendered life starts, maintains, and completes the salvation journey here on earth, not the believing your standing on.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Salvation is by Grace, "THROUGH FAITH "

Yes.. THROUGH FAITH

Not by faith.

the through faith part of that statement "IS" " a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " exact words from the definition of pisteuo in the Vines Greek dictionary.

No. It is not a surrender to hinm. You can not surrender to someone you can not know.. The tax collector did nto surrender. He surrendered to the fact he was lost. and needed saved. thats about all..

A continually surrendered life is what faith and trust in Him is. The surrendered life starts, maintains, and completes the salvation journey here on earth, not the believing your standing on.

lol.. You are showing possibly how we are sanctified. Not how we are saved.

Abraham did not surrender to God. He trusted him, confidennt God was able to do what promised.


Romans 4:
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

1. It is of faith (not of works. otherwise it is not of grace)
2. It is based on a hope (faith is the substance of things hoped for. the evidence of things Not seen Heb 11: 1)
3. It is not a faith that is wavering. it is a confident faith.
4. It is one who is fully convinced that what He promised he will do


The promise of God is whoever trust in him will never perish but have eternal life.
The promise of God is he will make us into a new creation. born of incorruptable seed
The promise of God is he will change us.

If your faith is you trustinng yourself.. then you have failed to trust God

 

[DavidLamb]

Yes David he gave us the "ABILITY " to faithe into Him. Part of the human being. But He doesn't faithe for us.

That would be like saying, because He gave us the ability to eat, He does the eating for us. Fundamentally incorrect.

I didn't say that God does believe for us. He gives us, not just the ability to believe, but the belief itself:

(Php 1:29 KJV) For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;


I have just read my post to which you were replying, and I see that I quoted Philippians 1:29 there, too. But I did not say anywhere in that post that God believes for us. I wonder why you thought I did?

 

[Watchman22]

Yes.. THROUGH FAITH

Not by faith.

No. It is not a surrender to hinm. You can not surrender to someone you can not know.. The tax collector did nto surrender. He surrendered to the fact he was lost. and needed saved. thats about all..


lol.. You are showing possibly how we are sanctified. Not how we are saved.

Abraham did not surrender to God. He trusted him, confidennt God was able to do what promised.


Romans 4:
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

1. It is of faith (not of works. otherwise it is not of grace)
2. It is based on a hope (faith is the substance of things hoped for. the evidence of things Not seen Heb 11: 1)
3. It is not a faith that is wavering. it is a confident faith.
4. It is one who is fully convinced that what He promised he will do


The promise of God is whoever trust in him will never perish but have eternal life.
The promise of God is he will make us into a new creation. born of incorruptable seed
The promise of God is he will change us.

If your faith is you trustinng yourself.. then you have failed to trust God

So your misrepresent me to keep standing on sand, I never said anything about trusting in myself.

Dishonest reporters i can't give truth to, good bye.

 

[Watchman22]

I didn't say that God does believe for us. He gives us, not just the ability to believe, but the belief itself:

(Php 1:29 KJV) For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;


I have just read my post to which you were replying, and I see that I quoted Philippians 1:29 there, too. But I did not say anywhere in that post that God believes for us. I wonder why you thought I did?

David, you said it again!.
You said, "He gives us, not just the ability to believe, but the belief itself. "

Your saying He satisfies the faith condition for us. Hence, believing for us.

And you have bigger problems, there is no such thing as believing in what Jesus did and said to receive His spirit.
The elephant in the room.

 

[Watchman22]

Tell me one person who has been saved without hearing the gospel.

So G, here is a scenario for you and that bad question.

There's a person in AA, never heard of the gospel before. AA being based upon a higher power, that person comes to the 3rd step where it states, " made a decision to turn my life and will over to God."

Now seeing from our standpoint there is only one God, your saying His decision to turn his life and will over to God won't be acknowledged by God because he doesn't know Gods name or anything about Him?

 

[Genez]

Salvation is by Grace, "THROUGH FAITH "

the through faith part of that statement "IS" " a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " exact words from the definition of pisteuo in the Vines Greek dictionary.

A continually surrendered life is what faith and trust in Him is. The surrendered life starts, maintains, and completes the salvation journey here on earth, not the believing your standing on.

Grace is the power we are given to walk through the tunnel (faith) to enter on the other side into His presence.

 

[Watchman22]

Grace is the power we are given to walk through the tunnel (faith) to enter on the other side into His presence.

Well thats a whole new definition of faith.

I suggest you find the Vines and Strongs and take a good look. None of what you defined is in either one of them.