Sexual Relationships

[Misty77]

Yes, I do... but I don't read "between the lines". These verses talk about "sexual immorality", but do not define it. When you define it, you're assuming things that aren't there. These verses say nothing about "marriage only", consequences of sexual immorality ("damage is done"), or how its "sin to oneself" (it specifically names the Holy Spirit as the victim). None of the claims made above are backed up by these verses, especially -- and this is rather important to this thread -- any of the claims about "soul ties".

We could get caught up in defining invisible lines that shouldn't be crossed. But the truth is that if you are walking with God, your spirit will know if you are engaging in or about to engage in activities that are reserved for a marriage relationship. Outside of marriage, it's like a mockery. There's fear, inhibitions, and guilt that were not meant to be part of the sexual experience. And while it may be satisfying on a certain level, there's just something missing. It's like a cheap knock-off of the real thing.

 

[Starcrash]

What are the wages of sin Starcrash?

The bible says "death", but clearly that wasn't the case for Elijah or Enoch. Animals die, despite not being responsible for sin. Innocent babies die before getting the chance to sin. So I wouldn't put too much stock in what the bible claims about "the wages of sin".

 

[MidniteWelder]

No, I don't believe that sin necessarily leads to "damage done". The bible commands, for example, that one ought not to mix cotton and linen. Does this lead to "damage done"? Obviously not. The same with eating shellfish, resting on a day other than the Sabbath, and a litany of other sins.

Nor do I believe that repentance is required or need for atonement. I'm an atheist, so sins against God are, in my opinion, hurting the feelings of a non-existent being. Since I don't believe in Hell, I clearly don't believe that atonement is necessary to avoid it. And also I do believe that I can live life how I see fit. What else can one do... live life in a way that they don't see fit? What is the benefit in that?

I believe in things with evidence, and you're still lacking it. Instead of asking rhetorical questions, perhaps you ought to "Google" what others have said about the reasons for Christian beliefs about sexual immorality so you can come back with reasoning.

Can you see love in your heart, or feel it present
If you cannot see it how do you have the evidence that it is there?

 

[Starcrash]

We could get caught up in defining invisible lines that shouldn't be crossed. But the truth is that if you are walking with God, your spirit will know if you are engaging in or about to engage in activities that are reserved for a marriage relationship. Outside of marriage, it's like a mockery. There's fear, inhibitions, and guilt that were not meant to be part of the sexual experience. And while it may be satisfying on a certain level, there's just something missing. It's like a cheap knock-off of the real thing.

I don't want assertions -- I want evidence. If sex outside of marriage is "like a mockery" that includes "fear, inhibitions, and guilt", then show me examples or explain why it is logically necessary that this would be true. It seems to me that the "fear, inhibitions, and guilt" are a direct result of people telling you that the act is wrong, not a result of the act itself.

But even if you could find evidence of this, it would contradict my own experience. I've had sex inside and outside of marriage, and there wasn't a marked difference. It didn't feel different, and in reflecting, it didn't have different consequences, either.

 

[Starcrash]

Can you see love in your heart, or feel it present
If you cannot see it how do you have the evidence that it is there?

Do you need an argument about epistemology -- the philosophical underpinnings of how we "know" things -- before you can provide evidence? Or are you trying to make an argument that evidence is meaningless?

You've made claims without the "proof" to back it up. You cited bible verses, which is indeed what I'm asking for, but they didn't say what you thought they said. Evidence could take the form of scripture (especially while I'm asking you to prove what the bible claims), but it has to be scripture that says what you're saying. You can't just read into the words whatever you want.

Are you just trying to avoid having to explain how my examples lead to negative consequences?

 

[MidniteWelder]

No I'm making the argument that like Love cannot be seen but felt and displayed...
God's presence is much the same... We can feel his presence and see his Glory displayed in our lives without him having to prove himself.
You've noted you're an atheist and don't believe in God simply because he hasn't revealed himself to you.
In a way I can understand but not agree with that.
I understand because you have been taught by the world therefore follow the world.
Don't agree because, you must first believe before you see.
The Un-noted differences in sexual relationships you have mentioned, are due to the fact that when it is self-seeking and self-gratifying there will never be any difference experienced.
---Because you have been given nothing better to compare them to.

But when God is present and it is only giving of yourself for the other. For the glory of God in the union, you will experience a vast difference in becoming one with someone.
And you will no longer wish to become one with any others.
The mystery Paul makes mention of in this is the mirror relationship between Christ to his Church and the husband and wife union being so similar.
Christ cares for and does not leave his church, and the church respects and loves and serves none other than the one she is united to.
This is the very reason Christ permitted for divorce under the guidelines of infidelity.
Because like a woman or man straying to serve another, if his church served another God that church would be cast away as well.
What you are in fact doing, is making yourself an idol, acting above God, serving another God besides the very one who created you.
Don't be deceived, I tell you the truth, you will know Jesus as Lord at some point. Ask him for it to be soon and you will see more than any of mans evidence could provide for anything.

John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed;
---blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

 

[Misty77]

I don't want assertions -- I want evidence. If sex outside of marriage is "like a mockery" that includes "fear, inhibitions, and guilt", then show me examples or explain why it is logically necessary that this would be true. It seems to me that the "fear, inhibitions, and guilt" are a direct result of people telling you that the act is wrong, not a result of the act itself.

But even if you could find evidence of this, it would contradict my own experience. I've had sex inside and outside of marriage, and there wasn't a marked difference. It didn't feel different, and in reflecting, it didn't have different consequences, either.

I was speaking from experience, not an ideology. I guess you and I have just had entirely different experiences, then. If you aren't a follower of Christ, then I suppose that a lot of this would seem odd or irrational. We come to Christ and accept His gift of salvation because we believe Him to be true. These restrictions and teachings are for those who have chosen to follow this path.

 

[phil112]

I don't want assertions -- I want evidence. If sex outside of marriage is "like a mockery" that includes "fear, inhibitions, and guilt", then show me examples or explain why it is logically necessary that this would be true. It seems to me that the "fear, inhibitions, and guilt" are a direct result of people telling you that the act is wrong, not a result of the act itself.

You ever hear of a conscience?

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them

But even if you could find evidence of this, it would contradict my own experience. I've had sex inside and outside of marriage, and there wasn't a marked difference. It didn't feel different, and in reflecting, it didn't have different consequences, either

Not "either", what you should have said is yet.

 

[RickyZ]

The bible says "death", but clearly that wasn't the case for Elijah or Enoch. Animals die, despite not being responsible for sin. Innocent babies die before getting the chance to sin. So I wouldn't put too much stock in what the bible claims about "the wages of sin".

Wow..................

 

[pug32]

[SUP]Mt. 19:4 [/SUP]And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
[SUP]8 [/SUP]He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.


1 Cor. 7 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.