Sexual Sins for Everyone?

[VW]

That isn't a fair statement to make just because you do not subscribe (I assume) to the church. There are ministering people that a church would hire - a pastor, a youth pastor, office assistant, Christian counselors for divorce, marriage, and so forth depending on the size of the church and how many people they are ministering to. All these people need to put food on the table but if they are busy ministering to everyone else, they have no time for a full-time job. Ask Keith if his family can survive without at least a humble wage. This is why God set aside portions of food for the Levites and temple priests. They ministered to the people, they did their temple duties full-time and by doing so, they don't have time to go out and farm, raise sheep, etc. This is why tithing is also a commonly raised issue. God provides but He also set an example for the rest of us to provide for one another as well.

Edit: I just realized that you are not specifically mentioning the church but that is an example. If I understand US law correctly (and I am in Canada, BTW), if this bill passes into law, a church could be required to (for example and I am not picking on any group of people specifically) hire an atheist homosexual to minister to married couples.

This law has come before the people before, many times. I have nothing against the pastor or the office worker, or the teacher making a living. It is the way that the church has become just like a business in order to meet the rules that our society impose upon her. I am unhappy with this imposition. We all should be. But, and this is a strong conviction for me, we are not responsible for the laws and rules of the society we live in. By doing so, we detract from the witness of Christ, and enlarge the witness of our organization.

The church in Rome did not try to change the Roman government, nor even the Roman society. They understood that they did not have authority to do so from God. The Holy Spirit did not lead them in this direction. There is no such thing as a Godly government in this world. They are all earthly.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

I think that there are two separate issues here: our moral stance as Christians and the moral and ethical rules neccesary for the functioning of society. For instance, we believe that it is wrong to steal, but we also know that it is bad for society to allow people to steal. It is both a Christian moral and a social more. What needs to be decided is what is applicable to both and what is applicable to only us personally.
Regarding churches employing people, it is a matter of following the laws of the land. If the law defines a person as an employee within a church, the church must obey all law that does not conflict with the faith.

 

[VW]

I think that there are two separate issues here: our moral stance as Christians and the moral and ethical rules neccesary for the functioning of society. For instance, we believe that it is wrong to steal, but we also know that it is bad for society to allow people to steal. It is both a Christian moral and a social more. What needs to be decided is what is applicable to both and what is applicable to only us personally.
Regarding churches employing people, it is a matter of following the laws of the land. If the law defines a person as an employee within a church, the church must obey all law that does not conflict with the faith.

The way into the business of the church by the government was in the area of taxes. The government has for several years considered any organization that is tax exempt to be subsidized by the government. In other words, the government is supporting these exempt organizations by letting them be exempt. In most bureaucrat's view, all tax exempt organizations are or should be under their control, just because they do not pay taxes. And this is their way to force these organizations to compromise their moral values. I watched this beginning to happen in the 70's in the church I was a member of then. The threat then was control over hiring practices to preclude discrimination based on sexual orientation. This has been happening for almost 40 years now.

 

[oopsies]

The way into the business of the church by the government was in the area of taxes. The government has for several years considered any organization that is tax exempt to be subsidized by the government. In other words, the government is supporting these exempt organizations by letting them be exempt. In most bureaucrat's view, all tax exempt organizations are or should be under their control, just because they do not pay taxes. And this is their way to force these organizations to compromise their moral values. I watched this beginning to happen in the 70's in the church I was a member of then. The threat then was control over hiring practices to preclude discrimination based on sexual orientation. This has been happening for almost 40 years now.

But it is not yet law because there are people who "fight" this to keep it away. It doesn't just magically happen. Someone still has to stand up for it. The problem is, non-Christians use this and then turn it into a "Christians always try to get in the way of letting them do what they want."

 

[charisenexcelcis]

The way into the business of the church by the government was in the area of taxes. The government has for several years considered any organization that is tax exempt to be subsidized by the government. In other words, the government is supporting these exempt organizations by letting them be exempt. In most bureaucrat's view, all tax exempt organizations are or should be under their control, just because they do not pay taxes. And this is their way to force these organizations to compromise their moral values. I watched this beginning to happen in the 70's in the church I was a member of then. The threat then was control over hiring practices to preclude discrimination based on sexual orientation. This has been happening for almost 40 years now.

The church doesn't pay corporate income tax because the church is not a for-profit organization. The church withholds income tax and social security taxes on individuals because their personal income is subject to income taxes and social security taxes, unless the church has a doctrinal disagreement with this withholding in which they can be exempt. Churches do not have to be recognized or verified by the IRS to be exempt because of the Constitution.

 

[VW]

The church doesn't pay corporate income tax because the church is not a for-profit organization. The church withholds income tax and social security taxes on individuals because their personal income is subject to income taxes and social security taxes, unless the church has a doctrinal disagreement with this withholding in which they can be exempt. Churches do not have to be recognized or verified by the IRS to be exempt because of the Constitution.

That is not what I was saying. I know that there is an attitude by the government bureaucracy that not for profit organizations are subsidized by the government, because they do not pay taxes. And government are in the business of influence peddling. "Because we subsidize you, we have the right to tell you how to do things." Governments use this and other kinds of rationalizations to do business, at all levels. It is not how the constitution was meant to be understood. However, the tax exempt status of churches is not because of the constitution. Freedom of religion is not freedom from taxation.

 

[superdave5221]

That is not what I was saying. I know that there is an attitude by the government bureaucracy that not for profit organizations are subsidized by the government, because they do not pay taxes. And government are in the business of influence peddling. "Because we subsidize you, we have the right to tell you how to do things." Governments use this and other kinds of rationalizations to do business, at all levels. It is not how the constitution was meant to be understood. However, the tax exempt status of churches is not because of the constitution. Freedom of religion is not freedom from taxation.

So if GMC did not make a profit last year and thus paid no taxes, they are considered to be subsidized by the government? Non profits pay no taxes because they make no profit, not because they are subsidized.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

That is not what I was saying. I know that there is an attitude by the government bureaucracy that not for profit organizations are subsidized by the government, because they do not pay taxes. And government are in the business of influence peddling. "Because we subsidize you, we have the right to tell you how to do things." Governments use this and other kinds of rationalizations to do business, at all levels. It is not how the constitution was meant to be understood. However, the tax exempt status of churches is not because of the constitution. Freedom of religion is not freedom from taxation.

I agree. And I was not saying that the right not to be taxed is guaranteed by the constitution. I was saying that the constitution prevents the government from requiring registration in order to be recognized as a church. In other words, the government cannot decide what is a church. Interestingly, it can decide the opposite.

 

[VW]

I agree. And I was not saying that the right not to be taxed is guaranteed by the constitution. I was saying that the constitution prevents the government from requiring registration in order to be recognized as a church. In other words, the government cannot decide what is a church. Interestingly, it can decide the opposite.

Ah, okay, I understand. Yes, that is interesting.

I hate the way that government is or the world. Had a friend one time ask me who I thought would win the election for president, and I gave him an honest answer, the candidate what was not considered to be for churches or for God. He looked at me strangely and wanted to know why I believed this. I told him that God always gives us the president we deserve as a nation of people. In a way, you can judge a nation by its leaders.

We, the United States, are in real trouble.


Back to the thread; if we care about the lost of the world, those who need Jesus, then I believe that we need to show them Jesus, not churches. Believers who have the love of God for one another. A light in a very dark world. Jesus said that if we had love for one another, just as He loves us, then the world would know that He has sent us into the world. I find that very strange, as Jesus always said that He was sent into the world by His Father. I would love to see the church, the body of Christ, be seen by the world as having been sent by Jesus.

 

[VW]

Of course, if we are ever seen in this way, as having been sent into the world by Jesus, then we can expect an unbelievable amount of persecution. We will be hated above all people, by those who rule the world.

I believe that the day is coming, and is soon to appear, when we will be seen as having been sent from Jesus into the world, just as the Father sent Him.

 

[superdave5221]

Of course, if we are ever seen in this way, as having been sent into the world by Jesus, then we can expect an unbelievable amount of persecution. We will be hated above all people, by those who rule the world.

I believe that the day is coming, and is soon to appear, when we will be seen as having been sent from Jesus into the world, just as the Father sent Him.

You are absolutely right. Jesus warned the apostles that they would be persecuted. In many parts of the world, China for example, Christians are persecuted. In Muslim countries, a Muslim who converts to Christianity can be killed, and often is. And yet, Muslims are converting! It always amazes me to see these people, with such faith, that they can endure torture and death for Jesus, and yet people in our country complain about trivial things.

 

[VW]

You are absolutely right. Jesus warned the apostles that they would be persecuted. In many parts of the world, China for example, Christians are persecuted. In Muslim countries, a Muslim who converts to Christianity can be killed, and often is. And yet, Muslims are converting! It always amazes me to see these people, with such faith, that they can endure torture and death for Jesus, and yet people in our country complain about trivial things.

I pray for the day when we will be seen as sent. That is why there is not more persecution in the western world. Believe that the western world, the overall populace, does not agree with God's view of things. And if we are Godly, they will see us as enemies, without a doubt.

How did Jesus put it? If salt has lost it saltiness?

This is why concern about the actions of those who are in the world is in my opinion, pointless. They need to see that Jesus has a body that He has sent into the world. And in truth, this body is Him, because it is His body. And even more so, just by His body being in the world, the world is judged, and from that alone will come conviction for some, and they will know where to go to seek the truth. Not to us, but to the Holy Spirit who is in us, who is working to convict and to empower and to free and to save.

If we be filled with Jesus, He will bring all men to Himself.

 

[oopsies]

so are you saying that we shouldn't tell a sinner that they have sinned, thus they need a Savior?

I honestly don't know how to respond to your posts, Keith. You are talking about evangelism - bringing people to Christ. Part of that is making them realize that they are sinners. But that does not necessarily mean that we should force them into certain actions that we as Christians know as proper. After all, it is biblical to say that not everyone will choose Jesus and God.

That is what I am talking about - the part on forcing them to behave the way we know Christians should behave. But I cannot find a verse that tells us that. Do you recall one?