Should Abortion Be Legal ?

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AdolfHipster said:
I'm against abortion. I have no idea when the spirit enters the body, I have no idea when the unborn child is a human life (I'm not convinced it's at conception), and so I side with caution personally.

Another note: There are numerous times in the bible when it mentions life starting and it's followed by a key phrase. God breathes the "breath of life", and they arise (Adam, Lazerus, etc...). It's unpopular to say life begins when they are able to breath on their own, but there is biblical evidence to support it.
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When does the spirit enter the body? That's covered in the Bible too. Try studying Psalms, because your version of what you think the Bible is saying about God's breath isn't working. Any particular reason you think God has lungs?
 
graceNpeace said:
This is not accurate - in medical abortions, if the mother dies there is no chance for the baby....
If the baby is of viable gestation then it is a premature delivery - not an abortion!

I would emphasise that the scenarios that I see would NOT allow a women to carry a pregnancy for weeks to months to allow the pregnancy to reach viability.
In the life-threatening situations I deal with there may only be a few hours to act.

I would suggest that the situations that allow plenty of time (weeks to months) to make decisions as to what to do are not what I was referring to at all since in these situations the likelihood of the pregnancy reaching potential viability is a real possibility and so needs to be approached very differently.
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"If the mother wants to die," denotes mother is consciously making this decision, thus... not dead.

I am aware that in a very rare case, the mother isn't conscious anymore, but then again, I already said such decisions should be solely between the mother and father. (These are things parents should talk about before becoming pregnant. And, if they weren't, then clearly should be talked about when they find out the baby is coming.)

With things like tubal pregnancy and stillbirths, choice is taken away. There is no reason for both mother and child to die, and yet, if it is ignored, both will.

How often do you run into those dire situations though? I really do think there are times when abortion is appropriate, but the vast majority of abortions happen specifically for convenience sake. An after sex decision, simply because responsibility was thrown out the door long ago.
 
Depleted said:
When does the spirit enter the body? That's covered in the Bible too. Try studying Psalms, because your version of what you think the Bible is saying about God's breath isn't working. Any particular reason you think God has lungs?
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Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ezekiel 5:7 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, 'Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life.

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

I know you're not particularly fond of the idea that Christians have differing interpretations of the bible, so I'll go ahead and agree to disagree on that as to not derail the discussion. Having said that, I've read Psalms and perhaps I missed it where it states the spirit enters the body (I definitely have much to learn). There are many more passages I could post talking about the "breath of life". Maybe you take the scripture figuratively speaking and not literal breath. As far as God having lungs, maybe He does or maybe He doesn't? Maybe God doesn't need lungs to give the breath of life to someone. You're assuming I think God has lungs... I'm not afraid to say I don't know something.
 
AdolfHipster said:
1.) The old covenant law is all about the letter of the law, the new covenant is about the spirit of the law. If someone "accidentally" killed another (manslaughter), the penalty was still paying with your life. Intentions don't play any part of it. If the unborn child was regarded as a living, breathing human-being, then the woman having a miscarriage alone ought to condemn the person who struck her to death, whether by accident or on purpose.

2.) If the old covenant law distinguishes the unborn from the born, it doesn't change one bit just because we are in the new covenant. The law is different, but if an unborn child is not regarded in the same reverence as the mother carrying it then, it wouldn't magically change just because we are in a new covenant. An unborn child's life in comparison to the mother is not a law that Christ fulfilled and is now obsolete today... That's like saying "apples are not apples anymore since the new covenant... sure they were called apples before Christ came, but that doesn't matter anymore since the arrival of Jesus!"

3.) I agree with you about what God tells me. Personally, I'm convicted that I shouldn't ever do it, but I'd be lying if I said I'm not in favor of things being legal that I am also personally against. Here is a list of things that I'm personally against but I wouldn't want a law passed criminalizing it: pre-marital sex, adultery, alcohol, recreational drugs, country music (sort of kidding on the last one). It's easy to say I wouldn't ever consider having an abortion when I'm unmarried and I don't have a wife with an ectopic pregnancy though. I would of course pray about it with my future wife before making a decision.
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Whether or not God values the life of the mother over the life of the unborn has absolutely no bearing upon God's stance on abortion when the mother's life is NOT at risk ... I already confirmed much earlier that I was NOT in favor of the mother dying in order to save the infant ... That is not in question here ... The question here is whether God is in favor of "murdering" the baby when the mother is NOT AT RISK ... That is the question ... And according to much scripture and common sense it is very easy to deduce that God is NOT in favor of that ...
 
Depleted said:
"If the mother wants to die," denotes mother is consciously making this decision, thus... not dead.

I am aware that in a very rare case, the mother isn't conscious anymore, but then again, I already said such decisions should be solely between the mother and father. (These are things parents should talk about before becoming pregnant. And, if they weren't, then clearly should be talked about when they find out the baby is coming.)

With things like tubal pregnancy and stillbirths, choice is taken away. There is no reason for both mother and child to die, and yet, if it is ignored, both will.

How often do you run into those dire situations though? I really do think there are times when abortion is appropriate, but the vast majority of abortions happen specifically for convenience sake. An after sex decision, simply because responsibility was thrown out the door long ago.
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Luckily most dire situations are avoided because the baby spontaneously aborts.
However, I, until recently, worked in a very large tertiary referral hospital with a major emphasis in obstetrics.
As a result, we would see the situations that I was referring to about 100 times a year...
(You need to know that something like a tubal pregnancy in our system is often caught well before rupture and can be dealt with surgically without any requirement for intensive care. Only the occasional tubal pregnancy that ruptures might require intensive care after surgery. Most of the problems we see in ICU where abortion is required are diseases that are not related to pregnancy, but the pregnancy nonetheless makes the disease much more severe, to the point of death.)
If I was working in the developed world where overall medical care is much less advanced, and especially antenatal care, then it would not surprise me if the incidence would be a hundred times greater again.
Considering I started my career in a developing country (South Africa) I know what I am talking about...
 
Pontiac said:
Whether or not God values the life of the mother over the life of the unborn has absolutely no bearing upon God's stance on abortion when the mother's life is NOT at risk ... I already confirmed much earlier that I was NOT in favor of the mother dying in order to save the infant ... That is not in question here ... The question here is whether God is in favor of "murdering" the baby when the mother is NOT AT RISK ... That is the question ... And according to much scripture and common sense it is very easy to deduce that God is NOT in favor of that ...
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I don't think God "favors" the mother over the unborn in the way you're saying though. He "favors" the mother because she's an actual human being, complete with spirit and the breath of life where as the unborn child is incomplete.

I'm curious though... why are you in favor of "murdering" the unborn if the mother's life is at risk? If you're convicted it's murder to abort, then how isn't it murder even if the mother's life is at risk? Are we God and do we know with 100% certainty the unborn child will not be viable? Clearly we are not... Has God done the impossible and showed His glory when the professionals have deemed the unborn "not viable"? Yes, I'm actually living proof of that. The difference between your stance and my stance is that I'm not convinced an unborn child is on the same level as the mother (as the bible distinguishes) so I don't know if it's "murder", where as you are convicted it is murder. If I felt as you that it is murder, then the mother's life being at risk isn't a justifiable reason to "murder" the unborn, especially knowing God could potentially save both lives. Get my point?
 
AdolfHipster said:
I don't think God "favors" the mother over the unborn in the way you're saying though. He "favors" the mother because she's an actual human being, complete with spirit and the breath of life where as the unborn child is incomplete.

I'm curious though... why are you in favor of "murdering" the unborn if the mother's life is at risk? If you're convicted it's murder to abort, then how isn't it murder even if the mother's life is at risk? Are we God and do we know with 100% certainty the unborn child will not be viable? Clearly we are not... Has God done the impossible and showed His glory when the professionals have deemed the unborn "not viable"? Yes, I'm actually living proof of that. The difference between your stance and my stance is that I'm not convinced an unborn child is on the same level as the mother (as the bible distinguishes) so I don't know if it's "murder", where as you are convicted it is murder. If I felt as you that it is murder, then the mother's life being at risk isn't a justifiable reason to "murder" the unborn, especially knowing God could potentially save both lives. Get my point?
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Wrong ... The Bible states life begins at conception ... The unborn IS already complete in Spirit because God confirms it ...
 
Waggles said:
Biological life begins at conception yes
to become a living soul is when one is born alive and receives the Spirit
of God -
that is Biblical
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Really?

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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Pontiac said:
Wrong ... The Bible states life begins at conception ... The unborn IS already complete in Spirit because God confirms it ...
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Can you post scripture where the bible states it begins at conception?

Furthermore, you didn't answer why you're okay with "murdering" the unborn if the mother's life is in danger. We don't always know for sure if the unborn is viable or not, only God knows... so if it's murder in one scenario, how is it not murder in another?
 
notuptome said:
Really?

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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I never understood why people used Jeremiah 1:5 to support "life begins at conception." Reread the verse please... "BEFORE" I formed thee... This passage just means God knew Jeremiah before he was conceived. God knew and foreordained him to be a prophet. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with when life begins.
 
Waggles said:
Biological life begins at conception yes
to become a living soul is when one is born alive and receives the Spirit
of God -
that is Biblical
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Untrue ... The Spirit is in the child at conception along with it's DNA ... Would you like me to find the verse ? ...
 
Waggles said:
Biological life begins at conception yes
to become a living soul is when one is born alive and receives the Spirit
of God -
that is Biblical
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Exactly. Biological life does not mean the Spirit of God dwells within that vessel. Another example is when someone is brain dead but kept on life support. I understand the need/desire to think the person is still a living human being, but I doubt their spirit lingers in their vessel... it's the machines that are artificially keeping the body "alive".
 
Waggles said:
Biological life begins at conception yes
to become a living soul is when one is born alive and receives the Spirit
of God -
that is Biblical
Click to expand...

This should clear it up ...

Psalm 139:13-16 [SUP]13[/SUP]For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. [SUP]14[/SUP]I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. [SUP]15[/SUP]My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. [SUP]16[/SUP]Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
 
Pontiac said:
Untrue ... The Spirit is in the child at conception along with it's DNA ... Would you like me to find the verse ? ...
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So then why are you in favor of "murdering" the unborn child if the mother's life may be in danger?

Yes please, post the verse about the spirit entering at conception.
 
Pontiac said:
This should clear it up ...

Psalm 139:13-16 [SUP]13[/SUP]For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. [SUP]14[/SUP]I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. [SUP]15[/SUP]My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. [SUP]16[/SUP]Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
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Okay, every living breathing human being with a spirit was formed inside the womb. This passage is speaking about God knowing/seeing the process taking place.

Can you highlight/bold the part where it says as you claim, that the "spirit enters the body at conception." It's one thing to interpret it that way... one has to reach extensively to come to that understanding in my opinion... and it's another to pretend like the bible explicitly states the spirit enters at conception, which you must admit, it doesn't explicitly state.
 
The scriptures clearly indicate that when a person or an animal
is born then they become a living soul.

God breathes his Spirit into such and are both biologically and
living [having life] by the Spirit of God.
When an animal or a person dies then the Spirit of God returns to
God - but for humans of course there is another higher aspect -
our soul continues on and is subject to judgement - to either die
or to go on into the eternities with God.

Animals simply die, there is no spiritual future for them.
 
AdolfHipster said:
Okay, every living breathing human being with a spirit was formed inside the womb. This passage is speaking about God knowing/seeing the process taking place.

Can you highlight/bold the part where it says as you claim, that the "spirit enters the body at conception." It's one thing to interpret it that way... one has to reach extensively to come to that understanding in my opinion... and it's another to pretend like the bible explicitly states the spirit enters at conception, which you must admit, it doesn't explicitly state.
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If God is overseeing the process as you say, then how can the Spirit not already be there ? ... Can't you see how absurd your argument has become ? ...
 
Pontiac said:
If God is overseeing the process as you say, then how can the Spirit not already be there ? ... Can't you see how absurd your argument has become ? ...
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God sees EVERYTHING. He knows 100% if a fetus will be fruitful or not. How does God knowing and observing things before/as they are happening indicate to you that it has a spirit? God observes trees growing... He created trees... does that automatically mean they must have His spirit too? Your argument is a bit absurd honestly...

What's even more absurd is that you're okay with "murdering" a child to save the mother when there is a chance BOTH can live. You haven't said one word about why it's murder in one scenario but not in another. Since when is murdering one life okay as long as you save someone elses?
 
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