Should unrepentant cohabitation (shacking up) result in church discipline and disfellowshipment?

[kaylagrl]

But I wasn't responding to the OP.

Plum forgot my point. It stinks getting older.

 

[presidente]

Plum forgot my point. It stinks getting older.

You must be from the south.

 

[kaylagrl]

You must be from the south.

Married a southerner.

 

[DB7]

Also I have cohabited with men in the past just as friends, and have never done anything with them unless I was going out with them, so I do think it's extremely judgemental just to assume things when you have no facts. Maybe your friend is happy in his church & religion, & happy with what he is presently doing.
Maybe they will get married much later on - who knows?
I don't think it's for others to judge, just on an assumption.

Why is it always, always the guilty who say 'Don't Judge', or 'Who knows'?
Cohabitating with the opposite sex is extremely improper in general, as much as Jesus' disciples were surprised that he was talking to a woman alone (by the well married 5 x). I;m not saying that it's egregious, but extremely inappropriate (I mean cohabitating, not necessarily talking alone). At least recognize that much! Just to emphasize, consider if one of the parties were married, would these 'benign' actions be acceptable then, i.e. sleeping over, left alone for extended periods, going out for dinner alone,...? In other words, innocent is innocent, it shouldn't matter of the marital status if it's inoffensive or not.
But when both parties are not married, 'doing something' with them, is called fornication. Are you able to see and admit that much?
Plus Paul heavily rebuked Peter when it was called for, and the licentious Corinthians, very austere.

 

[DB7]

Easy question...

Should unrepentant cohabitation (shacking up), defined as enjoying the sexual benefits of marriage outside of marriage, be a cause for church discipline and disfellowshipment?

And, if someone is involved in it, and is allowed to stay within the fellowship, does that disqualify him as a teacher?

Additionally, how would your answer be affected if the person was not a member of the church, but was a regular attender long-term?

Here's why I am asking. I have a friend that I care about. He's attending some kind of Arminian church that apparently believes it is fine to cohabitate. The pastor knows about the situation, presumably, because his pastor is a facebook friend of both individuals.

The woman he is cohabitating with is also a member of this Arminian church.

I met the guy as I was working in a parachurch ministry related to recovery. He was one of the people I was attempting to help. To be honest, it's quite frustrating when someone seems to be making progress as a new believer, but then gets involved in something like that.

He is actually involved in addictions recovery (which was his main issue) with his church group. He goes into the jail environment and is involved in presenting lessons to them related to recovery.

Perhaps this is denomination-oriented. Is this normal in Arminian churches? I know that Reformed Baptist churches would discipline someone who was involved in this, due to their high view of God's law.

I find it bizarre that any church could be so blind that they don't know that cohabitation is a work of the flesh. And, I thought the guy was in good hands with this pastor. It seems like for all of the Arminian talk about holiness, to me, it is nothing but hot air.

People must always be kept in check, always! It is your duty as a friend, as a Christian to bring attention to and to warn.
Ezekial was seriously cautioned, at the pain of death, to warn the wicked man of his ways. Do not take what is incumbent upon you lightly.
Sins committed in the flesh are more serious than a slew of others, this is serious enough, that some sort of action needs to be taken.
1 Corinthians 6:18-20 18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

I'm tired of people being complacent, or too trepid to rock the boat, or just downright oblivious. Read Timothy or Titus for the qualifications of a leader, i needn't say any more. All my friends know exactly what i feel about their illicit practices, my conscience is clear. I have told the ones that I think are not saved, that they are not in my opinion, and others, how I feel about the hurt that their causing by their sins. And I'd be very displeased if they did not tell me about my indiscretions and unrighteous shortcomings, that may end up hurting myself or others. It's called respect and maturity!

Now, how one expresses this, depends on the crime and depends on the recipient. I am not talking about abuse, austerity, harshness necessarily, ostracization or cruelty. Just awareness and correction. And with the utmost wisdom, how to stop what they're doing and why.

Love admonishes, rebukes and corrects, only the devil enjoys watching people spiral out of control, especially Church leaders.
It is your duty UWC to intervene if you have any love for righteousness and for others, especially the congregation. Will you truly not feel responsible if things get worse, I wouldn't?
BUT AGAIN, and as equally important, it is your own Christian discretion on the timing, on the manner, on the severity or docility, of how you handle it.

I wish you the best in making the right decision, ...and to me the right and responsible attitude is to protect and save those you love, ...with love and concern.

 

[kaylagrl]

With respect to everything you say, and the fact that you care about your friend, you have no idea what he is doing or not doing with this woman, and I don't think it is any of your business. This poor woman is in a very vulnerable position at present. He may just be living there to support her. And during times of great grief, the lines get blurred, people get confused etc and don't know what they want. My prayers go out to her. And I don't think it is any of your business at this time.
And may I say from someone who works in mental health, your friend will not thank you for bringing up a very personal, intimate topic when this poor woman is grieving for her wee girl.
"However, I will very likely talk to him about it and tell him what a big disappointment this is to me personally. I had hopes that perhaps a few people were helped by the parachurch ministry activity, and he was actually someone that I had a lot of hopes for."
You say it's a disappointment for you personally. I reckon you are projecting your own feelings of disappointment onto your friend for not becoming your prodigy by the sounds of it. I think you are more annoyed that he's not become what you think he should become.

He doesn't have to live with her to help her. Bible says shun the very appearance of evil. So you don't want people to speculate as to what's going on and you don't put yourself in a tempting position. And you're judging his intent.

He sounds like he's doing good work already, & doing the best that he can, whilst supporting this lady and her daughter too.
This situation isn't about you or him - it's about a grieving family who need time to sort themselves out.

He can do all that without living with her.

Also I have cohabited with men in the past just as friends, and have never done anything with them unless I was going out with them, so I do think it's extremely judgemental just to assume things when you have no facts. Maybe your friend is happy in his church & religion, & happy with what he is presently doing.

Again the Bible says "shun the appearance". He's putting himself in the place of temptation. And her also. If you're not married you shouldn't be living with the opposite sex. Sends the wrong message.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

People must always be kept in check, always! It is your duty as a friend, as a Christian to bring attention to and to warn.
Ezekial was seriously cautioned, at the pain of death, to warn the wicked man of his ways. Do not take what is incumbent upon you lightly.
Sins committed in the flesh are more serious than a slew of others, this is serious enough, that some sort of action needs to be taken.
1 Corinthians 6:18-20 18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

I'm tired of people being complacent, or too trepid to rock the boat, or just downright oblivious. Read Timothy or Titus for the qualifications of a leader, i needn't say any more. All my friends know exactly what i feel about their illicit practices, my conscience is clear. I have told the ones that I think are not saved, that they are not in my opinion, and others, how I feel about the hurt that their causing by their sins. And I'd be very displeased if they did not tell me about my indiscretions and unrighteous shortcomings, that may end up hurting myself or others. It's called respect and maturity!

Now, how one expresses this, depends on the crime and depends on the recipient. I am not talking about abuse, austerity, harshness necessarily, ostracization or cruelty. Just awareness and correction. And with the utmost wisdom, how to stop what they're doing and why.

Love admonishes, rebukes and corrects, only the devil enjoys watching people spiral out of control, especially Church leaders.
It is your duty UWC to intervene if you have any love for righteousness and for others, especially the congregation. Will you truly not feel responsible if things get worse, I wouldn't?
BUT AGAIN, and as equally important, it is your own Christian discretion on the timing, on the manner, on the severity or docility, of how you handle it.

I wish you the best in making the right decision, ...and to me the right and responsible attitude is to protect and save those you love, ...with love and concern.

He announced he was getting married last week. I told him I was worried about that situation. He said he knew I would be.

Anyways I was glad to see the picture of him proposing to her on Facebook.

 

[Melach]

He doesn't have to live with her to help her. Bible says shun the very appearance of evil. So you don't want people to speculate as to what's going on and you don't put yourself in a tempting position. And you're judging his intent.




He can do all that without living with her.





Again the Bible says "shun the appearance". He's putting himself in the place of temptation. And her also. If you're not married you shouldn't be living with the opposite sex. Sends the wrong message.

true i will fornicate at the drop of a hat you can bet your life on it. i would never live with someone im not married to. why would i put myself in that position?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

true i will fornicate at the drop of a hat you can bet your life on it. i would never live with someone im not married to. why would i put myself in that position?

Well, I lived with guys as roommates, and we never had sex, but I know what you mean

 

[Melach]

Well, I lived with guys as roommates, and we never had sex, but I know what you mean

hahaha yeah i obviously meant women.

 

[Ruby123]

true i will fornicate at the drop of a hat you can bet your life on it. i would never live with someone im not married to. why would i put myself in that position?

Hey Melach, so don't forget what will you be drinking tomorrow night?

 

[Melach]

Hey Melach, so don't forget what will you be drinking tomorrow night?

yes mom. only milk water and coffee for the entire weekend.

 

[Ruby123]

Good boy

 

[Hungry]

This may come as a surprise to most of you because don’t read what the Bible is actually saying. You belong to group think and mold your thought according what was told to you by men. It was common to have wives and concubines when Christ was preaching. If you study what the words were translated from, wife and woman are interchangeable. So, the phrase, “Whoever looks at a woman, to lust after her, has already committed adultery” is better translated, “Whoever looks at a wife, to lust after her....” Polygamy isn’t a sin. Concubines were quite popular. The sin is taking another man’s wife. As Christians to be committed Spiritually, is to not serve the flesh. Paul suggested if someone will be tempted because of their libido, they should take a wife but only one. This has more to do with time management, not sin management. The same word was used for “Each man should have his own wife (woman), and each woman her own husband (man).” This was to keep lust at bay when questioned about abstinence. It is wise to follow this advice.

I guess the point is that Christ most likely stated lusting after married women is adultery. As well, it is wise to be monogamous and have a mate to share your life with so you aren’t sleeping around. I’m not sure anywhere Christ or any apostle condemned living together in a monogamous relationship void of matrimony. Christ didn’t rebuke the woman at the well, so maybe we shouldn’t either.

If a man or a woman is a pleasure seeker and desires only to satisfy their flesh then they don’t belong to the Lord anyways.

 

[Melach]

This may come as a surprise to most of you because don’t read what the Bible is actually saying. You belong to group think and mold your thought according what was told to you by men. It was common to have wives and concubines when Christ was preaching. If you study what the words were translated from, wife and woman are interchangeable. So, the phrase, “Whoever looks at a woman, to lust after her, has already committed adultery” is better translated, “Whoever looks at a wife, to lust after her....” Polygamy isn’t a sin. Concubines were quite popular. The sin is taking another man’s wife. As Christians to be committed Spiritually, is to not serve the flesh. Paul suggested if someone will be tempted because of their libido, they should take a wife but only one. This has more to do with time management, not sin management. The same word was used for “Each man should have his own wife (woman), and each woman her own husband (man).” This was to keep lust at bay when questioned about abstinence. It is wise to follow this advice.

I guess the point is that Christ most likely stated lusting after married women is adultery. As well, it is wise to be monogamous and have a mate to share your life with so you aren’t sleeping around. I’m not sure anywhere Christ or any apostle condemned living together in a monogamous relationship void of matrimony. Christ didn’t rebuke the woman at the well, so maybe we shouldn’t either.

If a man or a woman is a pleasure seeker and desires only to satisfy their flesh then they don’t belong to the Lord anyways.

this man is from canada.

 

[Hungry]

this man is from canada.

Are you saying I am from Canada as if it changes what the Bible clearly states?

 

[kaylagrl]

true i will fornicate at the drop of a hat you can bet your life on it. i would never live with someone im not married to. why would i put myself in that position?

I think many would have a hard time not giving into temptation if they were in love with that person. But even if you didn't give in, it's still wrong to be with someone you're not married to and give the wrong appearance IMO. You put yourself at risk either way.

 

[Melach]

I think many would have a hard time not giving into temptation if they were in love with that person. But even if you didn't give in, it's still wrong to be with someone you're not married to and give the wrong appearance IMO. You put yourself at risk either way.

yeah you are right. because lets be honest, everyone is thinking about it.

i dont think Jesus went around just sleeping in the same bed with mary magdalen. even if nothing had happened, it would have given people the reason to accuse and i will be honest if i was living in 1st century and saw Jesus do it, i would be among the ones thinking "hmm. whats going on here?"

you can call it being judgmental but i call it just being skeptical its not a bad thing always? i tell you why this is my opinion dear friend. because lets say you are there in 1st century or doesnt matter when: you see some person claiming to be this big leader of the people, spiritual leader, he tells to follow him, but then you look and they have something fishy going on in their life, it doesnt match their claims and thats how you should recognize this guy is false i wont follow him and waste my time

i hope yuo understand what im saying and others too that im not just being pharisee here saying all is bad. honestly if i told you im a prophet of God and every word i say goes, then next day you see me go behind the corner with a strip*er on my arm. what do you think? will you still believe everything i say? i believe any smart person there wouldnt believe and would say yeah this guy is phony.

i believe this is what st.paul meant when he said not to shipwreck his faith. that he doesnt fail his ministry, if st.paul did something like this, nobody takes him serious anymore

 

[kaylagrl]

yeah you are right. because lets be honest, everyone is thinking about it.

i dont think Jesus went around just sleeping in the same bed with mary magdalen. even if nothing had happened, it would have given people the reason to accuse and i will be honest if i was living in 1st century and saw Jesus do it, i would be among the ones thinking "hmm. whats going on here?"

you can call it being judgmental but i call it just being skeptical its not a bad thing always? i tell you why this is my opinion dear friend. because lets say you are there in 1st century or doesnt matter when: you see some person claiming to be this big leader of the people, spiritual leader, he tells to follow him, but then you look and they have something fishy going on in their life, it doesnt match their claims and thats how you should recognize this guy is false i wont follow him and waste my time

i hope yuo understand what im saying and others too that im not just being pharisee here saying all is bad. honestly if i told you im a prophet of God and every word i say goes, then next day you see me go behind the corner with a strip*er on my arm. what do you think? will you still believe everything i say? i believe any smart person there wouldnt believe and would say yeah this guy is phony.

i believe this is what st.paul meant when he said not to shipwreck his faith. that he doesnt fail his ministry, if st.paul did something like this, nobody takes him serious anymore

I totally agree with what you're saying. My husband lived almost a year in our home alone before we married. I didn't stay overnight. Temptation is just a normal part of being human. I think when we don't admit that, we fall. And I'm saying this because I'm not perfect and I know I can be tempted on many things. So I try, I try to stay away from things that cause temptation. We have to be careful of our appearance.

 

[Hungry]

What makes someone “married”? If it is just a legal term, and after cohabitation for a length of time they are legally bound is that sufficient? We are grappling with terminology. Marriage at the time of Christ wasn’t the same as now. There is Biblical Law pertaining to concubines (as sex slaves basically). Are we putting old wine in new wine skins? I think sleeping around is more the “fornication” described in the NT. Having sex with someone you aren’t married to would include concubines which was perfectly acceptable. There was legal language just like there is if you are “shacking up”. I don’t think that two commited people living together is under the same umbrella as pornography and whoring. We are talking about two entirely different systems. One has a father selling his daughter to be provided for, either as a wife whose children can become heirs of the father, or a concubine whose children are not valid heirs. The other is a legal system where if you are married you are legally bound or living together are legally bound. It’s comparing apples to oranges. One permits polygamy and concubines, the other does not. How can you make a judgement, accept based on laws written by man?