Should women teach, should you?

Guardian1970 · May 3, 2021

Should women teach?

This has been talked about and argued a lot. Let me ask these questions for you to ponder, before you read on.

Why would men argue women are not worthy to teach? On what basis? So the first question is, should YOU teach?

Who gives YOU authority to teach? Who makes you a priest? By what baptism, by whom and how? Of Men or God? Understanding this will help you frame and understand the truth!

Is salvation and the cross only for man? Is the Holy Spirit and salvation only for man? Are women and children not afforded the same salvation with the same spirit, the same way as men? If we agree then that all are saved in the same way, given the same spirit, and therefore the same teacher, then who are you to say whom God has chosen to carry His truth and who is not?

God forbid that there be a difference, for as God has used women to save nations and influence them like Pilot’s wife, also even so using a Donkey to speak and deliver a message! Do not think you to be greater than the woman, or a child! Which is greater men or children? For behold, Jesus said “Unless you humble yourself as this child, you will not enter the Kingdom of heaven! You must also have the faith of a child.

Just as it is written do not think yourself to be greater than Israel for from her came salvation to all the world! To which did salvation come first Gentile or Jew? Then why do you believe you are greater then your brother? If you do not believe but understand, then understand you are also not greater then your sister! Whose law is greater men or God’s? If you claim God’s then tell me what was meant by when Jesus said, Who are my mothers and brothers? , “Who are my mother and my brothers?” 34And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.” Did he separate women from doing the Will of God? He emphasizes and expanded not only mother but added the word sister. If the master does not separate them, should you? If salvation does not separate them, then don’t.

So know this, God keeps His word and will save Israel. Behold Israel is already saved, they just have to recognize who has saved them. Seek and you shall find, look and learn from the Torah. This foreshadowing, to include how He would save the gentile and then keep His word saving the Jew. Let he who seeks find, look at the lesson of Isaac and his two sons. It is all there in plain site for those with heavens eyes to see. Who would be saved and how.

You who point to a letter from a fellow brother and disciple on his own journey and walk toward the light and understanding, even having his own struggles with his flesh. Understanding the contexts of the letter is key. That it is about keeping good order in the meetings. Note that not just ONE person was teaching as it is today in most “churches” today but, all believers coming together to share what they believe God has shown them. These are the talents scattered.

He emphasized obedience because It was about wives being respectful to their husbands and if in disagreement, not to argue in front of the congregation but to talk privately out of respect. Discuss it in private and if her truth change His mind then they can echo each other. Showing mutual respect. He speaks the same of the others in taking turns and waiting for others to cease speaking. Having an interpretive of you guys though I know he questioned them, one of wisdom would not deny that it may come from God, but for what purpose? When it showed on the day of Pentecost it was to show and being glory’s to God and spread His word at a world trading post. Those who knew they were there people were foreign listened even more because they understood them each in their own language. So the purpose of the letter was to organize and keep order. Think of a town hall with no organization. He was just trying to apply organization and good order.

Now, since Christ did not deny women doing the will of God. Who is man to stand before God and tell Him who He shall give mercy, the spirit and salvation?

Again, this is not man’s church, man cannot control it. Satin cannot keep God from touching whom He chooses will glorify His name.

He is the way.
This is the way.

Least of the kingdom and
a brother in Christ

Live4Him · May 3, 2021

Guardian1970 said:

For starters, the passages of scripture that you're alluding to, IN CONTEXT, refer to wives not teaching their husbands or usurping authority over them, and not to women in general.

As to the basis and extreme importance of the argument, I offer the following.

In relation to God’s creation of the first man and woman, Adam and Eve, we read:

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” (Gen. 1:26-27)

When Adam was created in the image of God (Gen. 1:27, 5:1), he was created as a figure of him that was to come or as a type of Jesus Christ, “the second man” (I Cor. 15:47) or “the last Adam” (I Cor. 15:45).

In his epistle to the saints at Rome, the apostle Paul wrote:

“Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.” (Rom. 5:14)

The underlying Greek word which is here translated as “figure” is “typos”…

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G5179&t=KJV

…and it is from this Greek word that we derive our English word “type”.

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=type

The dictionary defines “type” in the following manner:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/type

“A person or thing (as in the Old Testament) believed to foreshadow another (as in the New Testament).”

Similarly, the dictionary defines “antitype” in the following manner:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/antitype

“Something that corresponds to or is foreshadowed in a type.”

Paul explained one way in which Adam, the type, prefigured or foreshadowed Christ, the antitype, in his epistle to the saints at Ephesus when he wrote:

“Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.” (Eph. 5:22-33)

While teaching on the subject of marriage, Paul went all the way back to the book of Genesis to establish his doctrine. While doing so, he explained how the natural union between Adam and Eve, the first human beings and the first husband and wife, was a great mystery in that it was a type of God’s desired spiritual union concerning Christ and the church where the two become one (Gen. 2:24, Eph. 5:31-32).

This typology is broken down into the two following types and antitypes:

1. Adam, the type, prefigured Christ, the antitype.
2. Eve, the type, prefigured the church, the antitype.

While describing this great mystery, Paul gave the two following parallels between Adam, the type, and Christ, the antitype:

1. Adam was the head of his wife, Eve, even as Christ is the head of his spiritual bride, the church (Eph. 5:23).
2. Adam was to love his wife as his own body (Eph. 5:28), even as Christ loves the church as his own body (Eph. 5:30).

Seeing how this great mystery concerning Christ and the church began in Genesis, we will turn there now.

We read:

“And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.” (Gen. 2:20-24)

According to the Genesis account, Adam was created first (Gen. 2:7), and Eve was later made from one of his ribs (Gen. 2:21-22). While pointing his readers back to this account (Eph. 5:31), Paul not only stated that the husband is the head of the wife (Eph. 5:23), but also that men ought to love their wives as their own bodies (Eph. 5:28).

By preceding Eve in order of creation and by being a figure or a type of Christ who was to come (Rom. 5:14), Adam was designated as Eve’s head whereas she was likened to his body in that she was bone of his bones and flesh of his flesh (Gen. 2:23). Similarly, Christ, the antitype, precedes the church in that his “goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting” (Mic. 5:2), and he is the head of the church (Eph. 5:23) which is of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones (Eph. 5:30).

Drawing heavily from this Genesis account and the typology contained therein, Paul regularly used the terms “head” and “body” to describe Christ and the church throughout his epistles, and we will see many examples of the same before this response is through.

Paul more directly addressed the significance of Adam being created first when he wrote to Timothy:

“Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” (I Tim. 2:11-14)

Contextually, the woman here refers to the wife because Paul, while drawing from the Genesis account, used Adam and Eve, the first husband and wife, as an example of what he was seeking to convey unto Timothy. Seeing how Adam was first formed, then Eve, and seeing how the same typified Christ preceding the church as its head or authority, Paul taught that wives ought not usurp authority over their own husbands, but rather be in subjection to the same.

When we come to understand this great mystery concerning Christ and the church, we then realize how it would be as wrong for a wife to usurp authority over her own husband as it would be for the church, whom the wife typifies, to usurp authority over Christ, whom the husband typifies.

Paul drew further from the Genesis account while describing this same truth in his first epistle to the saints at Corinth.

There, we read:

“But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.” (I Cor. 11:3-16)

While further describing the type of headship of which he wrote to the saints at Ephesus (Eph. 5:23) and to Timothy (I Tim. 2:11-14), Paul broke it down in the following order to the saints at Corinth:

1. God
2. Christ
3. Man
4. Woman

The head of Christ is God (I Cor. 11:3) in that Jesus, after his incarnation, never spoke anything other than that which he first heard his Father speak and never did anything other than that which he first saw his Father do.

During his earthly ministry, Jesus made multiple comments along the following lines:

“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.” (John 12:49)

“Then Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but, what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.” (John 5:19)

(continued in my next post)

Live4Him · May 3, 2021

(continued from my previous post)

Although submission and subjection are very touchy topics for many today because they have been so perverted and abused, God’s kingdom is still one of headship or of delegated authority.

The head of Christ is God, and Jesus Christ is the ultimate example of one who truly is in submission or subjection to authority.

Moving further down God’s delegated chain of authority, Paul said that the head of every man is Christ (I Cor. 11:3). Here, Paul was speaking in relation to a husband as the context is clearly that of a husband and a wife.

With the Genesis account in mind, Paul wrote:

“For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.” (I Cor. 11:8-9)

Adam, the first husband, was not of the woman, Eve, but the woman, Eve, the first wife, was of the man, Adam, in that she was made from one of his ribs (Gen. 2:21-23). Similarly, neither was the man, Adam, created for the woman, Eve, but the woman, Eve, was created for the man, Adam, or as his “help meet” (Gen. 2:20).

As Christ is fully submitted or subjected to his head, God the Father, so ought a husband be fully submitted or subjected to Christ as his head. No husband who is fully submitted or subjected to Christ will ever abuse his wife as abuse does not proceed forth from Christ. Instead, husbands who are fully submitted or subjected to Christ will nourish and cherish their wives and love them as their own bodies (Eph. 5:28), even as the Lord nourishes and cherishes the church (Eph. 5:29) as his body (Eph. 5:30).

Moving even further down God’s delegated chain of authority, Paul said that the head of the woman is the man (I Cor. 11:3).

Again, contextually, Paul was speaking in relation to a wife being in subjection to her own husband or saying the same exact thing to the saints at Corinth that he said to the saints at Ephesus when he wrote:

“Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.” (Eph. 5:22-23)

While further expounding upon the Genesis account from which he drew his doctrine, Paul wrote:

“For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.” (I Cor. 11:7-10)

Adam, a type of Christ or a figure of him that was to come, was created as the image and glory of God (Gen. 1:27, 5:1) whereas Eve, a type of the church, was created as the glory of the man (Gen. 2:21-23). Seeing how Adam was not created for Eve, but Eve was created for Adam, Paul taught that a wife ought to have power on her head because of the angels.

The underlying Greek word which is here translated as “power” is “exousia”…

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1849&t=KJV

…and this same Greek word is often translated as “authority” in our English Bibles.

Here, Paul was seeking to convey that a wife ought to be in subjection to her own husband’s God-given authority over her because he was aware that the angels were watching (I Cor. 4:9, Eph. 3:10), and he wanted to be sure that “all things” were being “done decently and in order” (I Cor. 14:40).

Whenever a wife usurps authority over her own husband, headship becomes perverted and looks like the following:

1. God
2. Christ
3. Woman
4. Man

The wife is now uncovered (I Cor. 11:5, 13) or not covered (I Cor. 11:6), and she no longer has power on her head (I Cor. 11:10) because she is no longer submitted or subjected to her own husband’s God-given authority over her. When such a violation or perversion occurs, the wife dishonors her head (I Cor. 11:5) or dishonors her husband. Paul said that if it is not a shame for a wife to remove her spiritual covering or to come out from being under her own husband’s God-given authority over her, then let her also remove her natural covering, her hair (I Cor. 11:15), or let her be shorn or shaven (I Cor. 11:6).

Along these same lines, whenever a husband places himself under his wife’s authority, the husband not only dishonors his head (I Cor. 11:4) which is Christ (I Cor. 11:3), but he also symbolically has long hair (I Cor. 11:14) in that his wife is now his covering.

This is what Paul was addressing with the saints at Corinth, and this portion of scripture has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not men or women should wear head coverings in church. Similarly, this portion of scripture has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not men can have long hair as such was never a custom in the church (I Cor. 11:16).

Although there is God-given authority within the confines of marriage which typifies Christ and the church, when it comes to the matter of salvation, there is total equality between a husband and his wife.

For this cause, Paul wrote:

“Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.” (I Cor. 11:11)

The apostle Peter, who also wrote of God-given authority within the confines of marriage, similarly recognized equality between a husband and his wife in regard to salvation when he said that they are “heirs together of the grace of life” (I Pet. 3:7).

Furthermore, even though the woman is of the man (I Cor. 11:12) in that Eve was made from one of Adam’s ribs, Paul said that even so is the man also by the woman (I Cor. 11:12). In other words, with the exception of Adam who was formed from the dust of the ground (Gen. 2:7), all men who have entered this world have entered it via the womb of a woman.

While still dealing with the issue of headship in marriage and the relationship between Christ and the church that it typifies, Paul wrote the following to these same saints at Corinth:

“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” (I Cor. 14:34-35)

Once more, contextually, the women who were to keep silence in the churches were the wives who were being instructed to ask their husbands at home whatever it was that they might be inquiring about in the church.

When Paul said, in relation to wives, “for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law”, he was yet again referring to the Genesis account where we read:

“Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” (Gen. 3:16)

When the LORD God told Eve “thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee”, he was rebuking her for her desire to usurp authority over Adam and commanding her to be under her husband’s rule instead. In fact, we see this same exact terminology being used by the LORD in relation to Satan's desire for Cain and Cain’s need to rule over him in Genesis chapter 4.

There, we read:

“And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.” (Gen. 4:6-7)

Here, “sin” was personified as “his desire” and “him” because “he that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning” (I John 3:8). Cain didn’t rule over Satan as God told him to, but instead he submitted to Satan’s desire for him (I John 3:12), and such led to him murdering his brother, Abel (Gen. 4:8).

Looking back at Eve, when God told her that her husband shall rule over her, he was reinforcing Adam’s place of headship over his own wife which he had before sin ever entered this world.

No matter how unpopular a teaching it is in “this present evil world” (Gal. 1:4), God has ordained that husbands should rule over their own households, and such is a prerequisite for husbands who seek any place of authority within the church (I Tim. 3:4-5, 12).

Again, seeing how the husband and wife relationship typifies the relationship between Christ and the church, whenever a wife usurps authority over her own husband, she is, in type, teaching that it is similarly acceptable for the church to usurp authority over Christ.

At the same time, whenever a husband places himself under his own wife’s authority, he is, in type, teaching that Christ likewise places himself under the authority of the church.

Additionally, whenever a husband abuses his wife, he is, in type, teaching that Christ similarly abuses the church as this is what is typified by the husband and wife relationship.

These are all very serious perversions of God’s intent for marriage and the great mystery that it represents concerning Christ and the church (Eph. 5:31-32). All who pervert the same will ultimately give an account for it before the Lord unless they first genuinely repent and bring forth fruits worthy of repentance.

(continued in my next post)

Live4Him · May 3, 2021

(continued from my previous post)

How serious and far-reaching can the consequences of perverting headship within marriage be?

Serious and far-reaching enough to have ushered sin, death, and a curse into this world.

Going back to the Genesis account, we read:

“And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.” (Gen. 3:17-19)

The actual cause of Adam’s sin and, consequentially, the actual cause of death and the curse which followed was that he hearkened unto the voice of Eve who was then deceived. Again, Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression (I Tim. 2:14). With such being the case, Adam willfully chose to hearken unto Eve’s voice instead of the voice of the LORD God. By doing so, Adam not only greatly perverted his own headship over Eve which typified Christ’s headship over the church, but he also dishonored his head (I Cor. 11:4) which is Christ (I Cor. 11:3).

Thousands of years later, such perversions of God’s ordained headship within the confines of marriage are pretty much the norm, and the relationship between Christ and his church which marriage is supposed to represent is regularly misrepresented to the world.

Whereas Adam’s hearkening unto Eve’s voice instead of the voice of the LORD God genuinely ushered sin, death, and a curse into this world, Eve’s commanded subjection to her own husband’s rule over her (Gen. 3:16) was not a curse which Jesus later allegedly redeemed wives from. Not only was Eve’s commanded subjection to Adam merely a reaffirmation of Adam’s headship which he had before sin entered into this world, but wives are still commanded to be in subjection to their own husbands’ rule over them today in relation to the New Testament.

Some examples of this truth have already been cited, and here are some additional examples of the same:

“Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.” (Col. 3:18)

“The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.” (Tit. 2:3-5)

“Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.” (I Pet. 3:1-6)

In relation to the New Testament, wives are yet commanded to be obedient to their own husbands that the word of God be not blasphemed (Tit. 2:5), even as Sarah obeyed Abraham to the point of calling him lord (Gen. 18:12, I Pet. 3:6). However, God has never commanded any wife to obey her own husband if doing so would cause her to sin in the eyes of the Lord.

For example, the same Peter who instructed wives to be in subjection to their own husbands (I Pet. 3:1) reproved Sapphira for agreeing with her husband, Ananias, to tempt the Spirit of the Lord. Immediately thereafter, she fell down dead, as her husband had before her, in an apparent judgment from the Lord (Acts 5:1-11).

Additionally, Abigail was tremendously blessed, and many lives were spared when she behaved in a manner contrary to the wickedness of her own husband, Nabal. Whereas she was blessed, her husband was eventually slain by the LORD for his own wickedness (I Sam. 25:2-42).

In instances where wives have husbands who “obey not the word” (I Pet. 3:1) or husbands who are not truly submitted to Christ’s headship over their own lives, they need to submit themselves directly to Christ’s headship, first and foremost. While doing so, they may possibly win their husbands “without the word” (I Pet. 3:1) via “a meek and quiet spirit” (I Pet. 3:4) as they maintain a “chaste conversation coupled with fear” (I Pet. 3:2) or a chaste behavior in the fear of God.

While drawing further still from this typology which was first introduced in the book of Genesis, a typology where the husband is the head (Gen. 3:16) of his own body (Gen. 2:21-23) or of his own wife, even as Christ is the head (Eph. 5:23) of his body (Eph. 5:30) or of the church, Paul wrote elsewhere in his epistles:

“And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.” (Eph. 1:22-23)

“And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.” (Col. 1:18)

“Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.” (Col. 2:18-19)

When we read such portions of scripture as these just cited, we must understand that Paul did not choose to refer to Christ as being the “head” or to Christians as being members of Christ’s “body” without a scriptural precedent for doing so. Again, that scriptural precedent was set by God himself in the beginning with the creation of Adam and Eve, the first husband and wife, and the great mystery that it typified concerning Christ and the church.

With this same exact typology in mind, here are several more places where Paul deliberately used either the word “head” or “body” to describe the relationship between Christ and the church:

“For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.” (Rom. 12:4-5)

“The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.” (I Cor. 10:16-17)

“For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.” (I Cor. 12:12-27)

(continued in my next post)

Live4Him · May 3, 2021

(continued from my previous post)

“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.” (Eph. 4:4-16)

“Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:” (Col. 1:24)

“And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.” (Col. 3:15)

As the antitypes of Adam, the head (Gen. 3:16), and Eve, his body (Gen. 2:21-23), Christ is the head (Eph. 1:22, 4:15, 5:23, Col. 1:18, 2:19), and the church is his body (Rom. 12:5, I Cor. 10:17, 12:12-27, Eph. 1:23, 3:6, 4:4, 12, 16, 5:23, 30, Col. 1:18, 2:19, 3:15) which is comprised of many members (Rom. 12:4, I Cor. 12:12). In relation to the members, it matters not if we are Jews or Gentiles (I Cor. 12:13) because Christ has broken down the middle wall of partition between us to make in himself of twain, Jew and Gentile, one new man (Eph. 2:14-15).

With this same Genesis account in mind, Paul additionally wrote to the saints at Corinth:

“Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.” (I Cor. 6:15-17)

While likening the saints at Corinth to members of Christ (I Cor. 6:15) or to members of his body (I Cor. 12:27, Eph. 5:30), Paul returned yet again to the Genesis account where “two, saith he, shall be one flesh” (Gen. 2:24, I Cor. 6:16). While doing so, he not only likened the same to Christians or those who are joined unto the Lord becoming of his flesh (Eph. 5:30), but also becoming one spirit (I Cor. 6:17) with the Lord. He did so because, as was stated earlier, the natural union between Adam and Eve, the first human beings and the first husband and wife, was a great mystery in that it was a type of God's desired spiritual union concerning Christ and the church where the two become one (Gen. 2:24, Eph. 5:31-32).

When it comes to this great mystery concerning Christ and the church, we are by no means limited to Paul’s revelation of the same. Instead, as we read the scriptures ourselves, we come to realize that throughout both the old and new testaments alike, with this same exact typology from the Genesis account in mind, the LORD is regularly depicted as being a husband (Isa. 54:5, Jer. 31:32, II Cor. 11:2, Gal. 4:27) or a bridegroom (Isa. 62:5, Mat. 9:15, 25:1-13) whereas his people are regularly depicted as being his wife (Isa. 54:1, Rev. 19:7) or his bride (Isa. 62:5, John 3:29).

Furthermore, we also come to realize that there are multiple places throughout both the old and new testaments alike where the unfaithfulness of God’s people is likened to adultery (Jer. 13:27, Ezek. 23:43, Hos. 2:2, Jas. 4:4, etc.), and this terminology similarly relates directly to the husband and wife relationship that was first introduced in Genesis and the great mystery concerning Christ and the church that it typifies.

In the light of everything that I have covered here thus far, haven’t we clearly seen that Christ and the church were initially typified by Adam and Eve, the first human beings and the first husband and wife?

Haven’t we also clearly seen that the relationship between the LORD and his people has consistently been likened to a covenantal, marital relationship from that point forward due precisely to this typology?

Again, if you understand that marriage was ordained of God to be a natural reflection of the spiritual union between Christ and the church, then you should also understand why it is imperative for both the husband and the wife to fulfill their callings in properly representing the same to this world, even as I’ve already explained here.

THIS, my friend, is the answer to your question.

Who has ears to hear, let them hear.

Chosen · May 3, 2021

Live4Him said:

(continued from my previous post)

“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.” (Eph. 4:4-16)

“Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:” (Col. 1:24)

“And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.” (Col. 3:15)

As the antitypes of Adam, the head (Gen. 3:16), and Eve, his body (Gen. 2:21-23), Christ is the head (Eph. 1:22, 4:15, 5:23, Col. 1:18, 2:19), and the church is his body (Rom. 12:5, I Cor. 10:17, 12:12-27, Eph. 1:23, 3:6, 4:4, 12, 16, 5:23, 30, Col. 1:18, 2:19, 3:15) which is comprised of many members (Rom. 12:4, I Cor. 12:12). In relation to the members, it matters not if we are Jews or Gentiles (I Cor. 12:13) because Christ has broken down the middle wall of partition between us to make in himself of twain, Jew and Gentile, one new man (Eph. 2:14-15).

With this same Genesis account in mind, Paul additionally wrote to the saints at Corinth:

“Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.” (I Cor. 6:15-17)

While likening the saints at Corinth to members of Christ (I Cor. 6:15) or to members of his body (I Cor. 12:27, Eph. 5:30), Paul returned yet again to the Genesis account where “two, saith he, shall be one flesh” (Gen. 2:24, I Cor. 6:16). While doing so, he not only likened the same to Christians or those who are joined unto the Lord becoming of his flesh (Eph. 5:30), but also becoming one spirit (I Cor. 6:17) with the Lord. He did so because, as was stated earlier, the natural union between Adam and Eve, the first human beings and the first husband and wife, was a great mystery in that it was a type of God's desired spiritual union concerning Christ and the church where the two become one (Gen. 2:24, Eph. 5:31-32).

When it comes to this great mystery concerning Christ and the church, we are by no means limited to Paul’s revelation of the same. Instead, as we read the scriptures ourselves, we come to realize that throughout both the old and new testaments alike, with this same exact typology from the Genesis account in mind, the LORD is regularly depicted as being a husband (Isa. 54:5, Jer. 31:32, II Cor. 11:2, Gal. 4:27) or a bridegroom (Isa. 62:5, Mat. 9:15, 25:1-13) whereas his people are regularly depicted as being his wife (Isa. 54:1, Rev. 19:7) or his bride (Isa. 62:5, John 3:29).

Furthermore, we also come to realize that there are multiple places throughout both the old and new testaments alike where the unfaithfulness of God’s people is likened to adultery (Jer. 13:27, Ezek. 23:43, Hos. 2:2, Jas. 4:4, etc.), and this terminology similarly relates directly to the husband and wife relationship that was first introduced in Genesis and the great mystery concerning Christ and the church that it typifies.

In the light of everything that I have covered here thus far, haven’t we clearly seen that Christ and the church were initially typified by Adam and Eve, the first human beings and the first husband and wife?

Haven’t we also clearly seen that the relationship between the LORD and his people has consistently been likened to a covenantal, marital relationship from that point forward due precisely to this typology?

Again, if you understand that marriage was ordained of God to be a natural reflection of the spiritual union between Christ and the church, then you should also understand why it is imperative for both the husband and the wife to fulfill their callings in properly representing the same to this world, even as I’ve already explained here.

THIS, my friend, is the answer to your question.

Who has ears to hear, let them hear.

Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church" and the "great mystery" is natural vs Spiritual.

Lanolin · May 3, 2021

Just let married couples sort out their own problems lol.

The rest of us trained teachers just get on with teaching.

OrphanedRepublican · May 3, 2021

I don't believe this is a time for "teachers." God has told us through Jeremiah, for reasons thoroughly explained throughout the scriptures, that he will be our teacher.

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Then should go on to read Hebrews Chapter 8.

I believe today the question is moot. Reading God's word daily, faithfully will teach far more than any teacher.

The following verse says it all:

Psalm 119:99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.

Psalm 119:24 Thy testimonies also are my delight and my counsellors.

Who needs teachers?

Chosen · May 3, 2021

OrphanedRepublican said:

"Yet He sent prophets to them to bring them back to the Lord; though they testified against them, they would not listen" (II Chronicles 24:19).

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" (Romans 10:14-15).

11 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" (Ephesians 4:11-13)!

Therefore new converts have to "hear" the message in order to "believe" the message from a "sent preacher" (Romans 10:14-15) the message that His "POWER (Acts 1:8) received after Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5) "QUICKENS" (I Corinthians 15:45) their "DEAD spirits" (Romans 5:12-14; I Corinthians 15:21-22) "back to life" (Ephesians 2:1) as they are "born again of the spirit" (John 3:5-7) and "resurrected from their grave" (Ezekiel 37:12-14) IAW I Corinthians Chapter 15.

OrphanedRepublican · May 3, 2021

Chosen said:

He warns about the peril of trusting in doctrines of men. The bottom line is, as far as I understand, follow the voice calling from the wilderness. There are slain bodies in the streets of cities, but the wilderness is springing up with springs and trees and water. Slain bodies dying from spiritual famine in the cities. And fresh living water in the wilderness, (outside the cities) away from wrong doctrines, and fed and nourished by God's word.

I believe that is the sign of Exodus. To lead the people away from corrupt taskmasters destroying them on wrong doctrines and sustaining them with "angels' food" in the wilderness directly by God himself.

Chosen · May 3, 2021

OrphanedRepublican said:

MAN HAS BEEN DECEIVED (Colossians 2:8) AGAIN as with the serpent in the garden!

There's no "doctrine of men" when

"But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God" (Acts 5:39).

3 "And did all eat the same Spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same Spiritual drink: for they drank of that Spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ" (I Corinthians 10:3-4).

"Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come" (I Corinthians 10:11).

Why are today's Christians fighting over what's in the cup; grape juice or wine when I Corinthians 10:3-4 says "Spiritual meat and drink?"

MAN HAS BEEN DECEIVED (Colossians 2:8) AGAIN as with the serpent in the garden!

"One baptism" (Ephesians 4:5) that Jesus does "with the Holy Ghost" (John 1:33; Acts 1:5) Who gives "POWER" (Acts 1:8) Who "QUICKENS" us (I Corinthians 15:45) "back to life" (Ephesians 2:1) from our "DEAD spirits" (Romans 5:12-14; I Corinthians 15:21-22) His "POWER received to become the sons of GOD" (John 1:12-13)

Has been replaced with the belief in TWO baptisms defying Ephesians 4:5 "one baptism" and the water baptism takes precedent of Jesus' baptism that is POWERLESS leaving mankind "DEAD spirits" and "God is the not the God of the DEAD" (Mark 12:27).

MAN HAS BEEN DECEIVED (Colossians 2:8) AGAIN as with the serpent in the garden!

Chosen · May 3, 2021

Lanolin said:

WHO trained you is the question (Romans 10:14-15)?

GOD or man (Acts 5:29)?

Blackpowderduelist · May 3, 2021

Most men who fancy themselves teachers shouldn't even be allowed to speak either.

tribesman · May 4, 2021

Guardian1970 said:

We have already several threads with the exactly same topic as the one you have posted here. Maybe you could have read at least one or two of them before setting up a new one?

p_rehbein · May 4, 2021

Guardian1970 said:

I would love to see the Scripture where God stated that women could NOT teach, or have authority over men. Yes, Paul said such, but where did God say such? Paul often spoke in two distinct styles:

Thus sayeth the Lord
and
It would be better that, I would rather that

So, one can NOT take all of Paul's writings as commandments from God. Paul himself said this.

As for God: the Prophetess Debora would reveal what He thinks, right?

In the Book of Judges, it is stated that Deborah was a prophet, a judge of Israel and the wife of Lapidoth. She rendered her judgments beneath a date palm tree between Ramah in Benjamin and Bethel in the land of Ephraim. The people of Israel had been oppressed by Jabin, the king of Canaan, whose capital was Hazor, for twenty years.
Occupation: Prophet of God, Fourth Judge of Israel
Other names: Debora, Débora, Dvora
Predecessor: Shamgar
Successor: Gideon
Deborah - Wikipedia

Chosen · May 4, 2021

p_rehbein said:

Paul did receive his commandments from God (Acts 1:2; Galatians 1:12) but when the Bible deters from Jesus' teachings it's the commandment of men (Matthew 15:9) that are LIES ENTWINED into Scriptures as GOD WARNED us

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" (Jeremiah 8:8)

Guardian1970 · May 4, 2021

Great stuff all!!

I see many of you do hear and see. It is a reflection of marriage, it is a reflection of the church and the head of it. Being one church body/bride with one Master, Teacher and Father. Remember though, we are called to come together not only for witnessing, but to seek all truths together. We should never stop trying to learn of Him, from Him. If we believe we have all truths then we are liars. Believing we know all there is to know about God.

That is why he gave those truths out to different people, each according to their ability. That we should come together as one comes to the banker to share and increase. “Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. 17And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. 18But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.” Listen to one another, share and be open to learn. Verify who it comes from with/against the Word of God. Do it in peace with love and humility.

It is the fact we are all equal in the eyes of the Lord. We are all sinners, we are all brothers and sisters. Both inside and outside of salvation/the body. Remember the only difference between us and those not saved is if you truly believe upon hearing the truth by God’s will, repented and was born again in the Spirit by the grace of God alone. Then that is it!! We did not earn it, there is no one, brother or sister above the other. We are to be one selfless bride (which is hard to do in the flesh) and dedicated to the one Husband, with one “teacher” the one master. Who has sheep in different folds and flocks that He will being together.

For other replies. Well, I did not read their threads before I posted powderkeg. I did it because I kept seeing it. Is there something wrong with posting my own? You are right, another posted, some would not allow people to speak if it were possible. After all, the religious of the day, like Pharisees, try to forbid other teachers from speaking of the way about Christ too.

Either way, great discussions, and I rejoice to see the Spirit of God moving.

Remember, Love your neighbor as yourself!

Love to you brothers and sisters in Christ

Guardian1970 · May 4, 2021

Great stuff all!!

I see many of you do hear and see. It is a reflection of marriage, it is a reflection of the church and the head of it. Being one church body/bride with one Master, Teacher and Father. Remember though, we are called to come together not only for witnessing, but to seek all truths together. We should never stop trying to learn of Him, from Him. If we believe we have all truths then we are liars. Believing we know all there is to know about God.

That is why he gave those truths out to different people, each according to their ability. That we should come together as one comes to the banker to share and increase. “Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. 17And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. 18But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.” Listen to one another, share and be open to learn. Verify who it comes from with/against the Word of God. Do it in peace with love and humility.

It is the fact we are all equal in the eyes of the Lord. We are all sinners, we are all brothers and sisters. Both inside and outside of salvation/the body. Remember the only difference between us and those not saved is if you truly believe upon hearing the truth by God’s will, repented and was born again in the Spirit by the grace of God alone. Then that is it!! We did not earn it, there is no one, brother or sister above the other. We are to be one selfless bride (which is hard to do in the flesh) and dedicated to the one Husband, with one “teacher” the one master. Who has sheep in different folds and flocks that He will being together.

For other replies. Well, I did not read their threads before I posted powderkeg. I did it because I kept seeing it. Is there something wrong with posting my own? You are right, another posted, some would not allow people to speak if it were possible. After all, the religious of the day, like Pharisees, try to forbid other teachers from speaking of the way about Christ too.

Either way, great discussions and I rejoice to see the Spirit of God moving.
Second greatest commandment love thy neighbor.

Guardian1970 · May 4, 2021

Please understand when I say gather together even if it is virtual, the key is to come together and share, learn from another, discuss and debate. Just as the first disciples did.

We do not know whom God has chosen to save, and who he has not. Whom God has raised up to speak His truth and share the hidden talents which He has dispersed amount the stars, least any man claim to know all truths and are “all wise” about God. Only when we bring our talents to the table together as a family seeking the Way, can we start to get a clearer picture and understanding of who God is and what he has done. Talents are puzzle pieces and treasure for those who seek the face of their Father in heaven.

Love, a brother in Christ

Blain · May 4, 2021

You know prevoerbs speaks about wisdom a lot and each time refers to wisdom as a she not a he and also people seem to love to forget that there were many female prophets in the bible and one of the duties of a prophet is to teach his church to follow him and abide in his ways and you know I find it interesting that Mary was rebuked by men when she was washing the feet of our Lord showing true devotion to him but no obviously bec ause men are obviously superior we wouldn't be willing to heed the message of Mary would we? and if we did she taught us humbleness and devotion
Anyone who wants to teach or says others cannot teach because of sex better understand that teaching is far more than spoken words and believe it or not many women trump men in regards to heart of a believer yet they are not allowed to teach are they?

I was shocked to see how far that thread of women pastors went and that it is still going it is the most ridiculous argument I have seen in a long time if God calls a women to speak if he calls for a women to teach if he calls for a women to do what his men will not who are we to question his judgement? Who are we to think ourselves above anyone else? who are we to silence those called his children? we are called the body we are called his children we are called by him and everytime you see these words used do you ever see him say his male or female children? do you ever see him say called or chosen in a a term of men or women?

Do you ever see him strike down a women for teaching and building his church? I have seen many many many men pastors and many of them are corrupt arrogant greedy and false teachers so yeah obviously we men have done a fantastic job haven't we? before anyone decides who can teach or not and before anyone shows the very few verse that even forbid a women to teach maybe seek the truth hidden within the truth.
You can know every verse in the bible like the back of your hand yet if you fail to hear the message spoken of in those verse you know the bible in vain, there are some verses that speak of women not teaching yet so many more instances in which a women not a man was used and chosen by God and so many more examples of women who by their actions spoke more than the lips of men ever could but nop one speaks of this do they?

Should women teach, should you?

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