it's just really, really simple.
the miraculous sign and revelatory gifts Christ gave (men) were for the founding of the NT church.
there was no canon yet. the gifts and office CEASED as canon was completed.
the word ceased can actually mean [be] destroyed.
perfect means mature (complete). "that which is perfect" exegetically can not mean in context, nor the word itself mean GLORY IN ETERNITY/THE SECOND COMING/JESUS.
it means the fullness of revelation delivered for all time - CANON.
this is an EITHER/OR issue. there's no part way or halfway. one either believes these gifts and offices CEASED and were partial, for a purpose, or you believe something else.
i know fully where i stand on this: on the Word of God, and with the Historic Church who has always known the foundation was laid ONCE in the Apostolic Era.
all this other stuff tells me (and i've said it before), i suspect we've entered satan's little season. and i'm not the only one. MANY believe the same thing - all the flags are here.
i've taken so much falk on tis site for this truth. i can't help it anymore if people get their feelings hurt - i have my convictions, and i need to present the truth.....AT ANY COST.
this is a grave and present danger, and people are being DESTROYED or lack of knowledge. if anybody wants to launch into another battle over this, i'm fully prepared (start a new thread). i've been working to compile a COMPLETE DEMOLITION of this thing, i've been at it for years and maybe it's time to give it everything i've got.
though there will be those who will NEVER believe the truth.
zone.
B.B. Warfield's "Counterfeit Miracles," 3-20
1. Some observations from B.B. Warfield’s “Counterfeit Miracles” (London, UK: Banner of Truth, 1972), 3-20.
2. The NT refers to spiritual gifts in the ordinary and extraordinary senses with God as the source. There are non-miraculous gracious gifts and the greatest gifts of faith, love and hope.
3. Churches throughout the apostolic period, planted by the Apostles at length, reflected gifts. Healings, miracles, prophecies, discernment of spirits, tongues (foreign languages) and their interpretation, preaching, teaching and the sacraments were characteristic of the churches. However, far from being possessed by all, it appeared extremely limited and narrowed to some elect individuals. 1 Cor. 12.1-3: The Spirit gives has He sovereignly determines, freely, mightily and as He was pleased to do.
4. The theologians of the post-Reformation were a “very clear-headed body of men” who taught with “great distinctiveness that the charismata ceased with the Apostolic age.”
5. Some theologians teach that the extraordinary gifts continued for three centuries after the apostolic period. One Anglican school of thought believes this.
6. Archbishop Tillotson is of this view. After the founding of the church throughout the world, “God was pleased to accompany it with a miraculous power; but after it was planted, that power ceased, and God left it to be maintained by ordinary ways.” John Wesley held this view, but believed that corruption led to the cessation of the extraordinary gifts. Several other Anglicans leaders held this view.
7. Warfield notes that there is much that is attractive, even plausible. However, he will later debunk the continuationist view. As to non-cessationism, “The facts are not in accordance with it.”
8. There is no evidence whatsoever of miracle-working in the first fifty years following the post-Apostolic church. In fact, the testimony is that of diminishment, decrease, and disinterest. Following that post-Apostolic period, there is a minor interest in it; there is some growing interest in it in the third century (the days of Montanism); there is evidence for it in the fourth and fifth centuries; the fourth and succeeding interest show interest in the subject, especially for Medeival Romanists trafficking like modern-day Pentecostalists. However, in the early period, there is little to no interest or explicit reference to them. We would say there was waning interest even in the book of Acts. Other than 1 Corinthians, all the Pauline epistles in the doctrinal and ethics sections show no interest in tongues, healings, or exorcisms. Same for the other epistles, as well as Revelation. We assert Pentecostals are frenzied ecstatics and are unhinged.
9. Justin Martyr notes that some had the gift of exorcism, healing and prophecy, but he gives no details, cites no cases, and shows no interest in the development of the issue. It’s by no means clear that he is referring to contemporaneous events or backwards to the apostolic and post-Apostlic period. His disinterest at development serves as a reminder that the modern Montanists, these Pentecostalists, are imbalanced, unhinged and are dominionistically demonic.
10. Irenaeus (d.202) writes to the same effect, with generality, lack of specificity, lack of development, and without large interest in the subject. He does mention tongues and raising the dead, but not as an eyewitness or worker of them. But, it appears that Irenaeus is speaking of the apostolic period. Ireneaus is at pains to compare and contrast the apostolic miracles long before him with the meager claims of heathen magic-workers.
11. Theophylus of Antioch (c.412) was challenged about reports of raisings from the dead. One such challenge came from Autolycus. The latter expected the former to attempt a defense. To the antagonist's suprise, the Christian Churchman, Theophylus, said that “there was no instance of this” for three centuries. Benny Hinn, however, predicts that relatives will bring caskets to the TV, touch it, and will be raised. Todd Bentley has claimed dozens.
12. Tertullian, Cyprian and Origen refer to exorcisms, healings, and prophecy without any reference to themselves as practicing or producing them.
13. Warfield’s point is that the middle of the second century contains references that are general as noted above.
Philip Schaff is quoted: “It is remarkable that the genuine writings of the ante-Nicene church are more free from miraculous and superstitious elements than the annals of the Nicene age and the Middle Ages…Most of the statement of the apologists are couched in general terms, and refer to extraordinary cures from demoniacal possession…and other diseases…Justin Martyr speaks of such occurrences as frequent…and Origen appeals to his own personal observation, but speaks in another place of the growing scarcity of miracles.” History of the Christian Church, Vol. 2, 117.
Again, re: Origen, “But there were signs from the Holy Spirit at the beginning of Christ’s teaching, and after His ascension He exhibited more, but subsequently fewer.” Origen, while noting some miracles in his time, observed that for all practical purposes, they had ceased.
14. Eusebius notes one resurrection from the dead, one in Philip’s house, the deacon of the apostolic church. Papias reported this. However, it was so uncommon by context, that it’s miraculousness was significant to Papias. Papias, a direct student and disciple of John the Apostle all but implies that “signs, wonders, and miracles” were not even common place. Barnard remarks: “If they were frequent, if he had even seen one himself, he would have told us of it, or to speak more accurately, Eusebius would not have selected for quotation a second-hand story, if evidence of a direct eyewitness was on record.” J.H. Bernard, any essay entitled “The Miraculous in Early Christian Literature” in a volume called “The Literature of the Second Century.” We would add another detail re: Papias, St. John’s disciple, that he wrote a 5-volume commentary on the Gospels. A few notes here: 1) The work did not survive except for fragments. It was probably confiscated in imperial “book burnings” including NT canons. 2) This involvement with the Gospels indicates that Biblical exposition was essential to church life.
15. Romanists have long catalogues of miracles, called teratology or teratoliges. More later on that. Pentecostalists, with their crafty and blasphemous Arminianism, fit in with the Romanists as well as the false Gospel.
Reformed Anglicanism: B.B. Warfield's "Counterfeit Miracles," 3-20
the miraculous sign and revelatory gifts Christ gave (men) were for the founding of the NT church.
there was no canon yet. the gifts and office CEASED as canon was completed.
the word ceased can actually mean [be] destroyed.
perfect means mature (complete). "that which is perfect" exegetically can not mean in context, nor the word itself mean GLORY IN ETERNITY/THE SECOND COMING/JESUS.
it means the fullness of revelation delivered for all time - CANON.
this is an EITHER/OR issue. there's no part way or halfway. one either believes these gifts and offices CEASED and were partial, for a purpose, or you believe something else.
i know fully where i stand on this: on the Word of God, and with the Historic Church who has always known the foundation was laid ONCE in the Apostolic Era.
all this other stuff tells me (and i've said it before), i suspect we've entered satan's little season. and i'm not the only one. MANY believe the same thing - all the flags are here.
i've taken so much falk on tis site for this truth. i can't help it anymore if people get their feelings hurt - i have my convictions, and i need to present the truth.....AT ANY COST.
this is a grave and present danger, and people are being DESTROYED or lack of knowledge. if anybody wants to launch into another battle over this, i'm fully prepared (start a new thread). i've been working to compile a COMPLETE DEMOLITION of this thing, i've been at it for years and maybe it's time to give it everything i've got.
though there will be those who will NEVER believe the truth.
zone.
B.B. Warfield's "Counterfeit Miracles," 3-20
1. Some observations from B.B. Warfield’s “Counterfeit Miracles” (London, UK: Banner of Truth, 1972), 3-20.
2. The NT refers to spiritual gifts in the ordinary and extraordinary senses with God as the source. There are non-miraculous gracious gifts and the greatest gifts of faith, love and hope.
3. Churches throughout the apostolic period, planted by the Apostles at length, reflected gifts. Healings, miracles, prophecies, discernment of spirits, tongues (foreign languages) and their interpretation, preaching, teaching and the sacraments were characteristic of the churches. However, far from being possessed by all, it appeared extremely limited and narrowed to some elect individuals. 1 Cor. 12.1-3: The Spirit gives has He sovereignly determines, freely, mightily and as He was pleased to do.
4. The theologians of the post-Reformation were a “very clear-headed body of men” who taught with “great distinctiveness that the charismata ceased with the Apostolic age.”
5. Some theologians teach that the extraordinary gifts continued for three centuries after the apostolic period. One Anglican school of thought believes this.
6. Archbishop Tillotson is of this view. After the founding of the church throughout the world, “God was pleased to accompany it with a miraculous power; but after it was planted, that power ceased, and God left it to be maintained by ordinary ways.” John Wesley held this view, but believed that corruption led to the cessation of the extraordinary gifts. Several other Anglicans leaders held this view.
7. Warfield notes that there is much that is attractive, even plausible. However, he will later debunk the continuationist view. As to non-cessationism, “The facts are not in accordance with it.”
8. There is no evidence whatsoever of miracle-working in the first fifty years following the post-Apostolic church. In fact, the testimony is that of diminishment, decrease, and disinterest. Following that post-Apostolic period, there is a minor interest in it; there is some growing interest in it in the third century (the days of Montanism); there is evidence for it in the fourth and fifth centuries; the fourth and succeeding interest show interest in the subject, especially for Medeival Romanists trafficking like modern-day Pentecostalists. However, in the early period, there is little to no interest or explicit reference to them. We would say there was waning interest even in the book of Acts. Other than 1 Corinthians, all the Pauline epistles in the doctrinal and ethics sections show no interest in tongues, healings, or exorcisms. Same for the other epistles, as well as Revelation. We assert Pentecostals are frenzied ecstatics and are unhinged.
9. Justin Martyr notes that some had the gift of exorcism, healing and prophecy, but he gives no details, cites no cases, and shows no interest in the development of the issue. It’s by no means clear that he is referring to contemporaneous events or backwards to the apostolic and post-Apostlic period. His disinterest at development serves as a reminder that the modern Montanists, these Pentecostalists, are imbalanced, unhinged and are dominionistically demonic.
10. Irenaeus (d.202) writes to the same effect, with generality, lack of specificity, lack of development, and without large interest in the subject. He does mention tongues and raising the dead, but not as an eyewitness or worker of them. But, it appears that Irenaeus is speaking of the apostolic period. Ireneaus is at pains to compare and contrast the apostolic miracles long before him with the meager claims of heathen magic-workers.
11. Theophylus of Antioch (c.412) was challenged about reports of raisings from the dead. One such challenge came from Autolycus. The latter expected the former to attempt a defense. To the antagonist's suprise, the Christian Churchman, Theophylus, said that “there was no instance of this” for three centuries. Benny Hinn, however, predicts that relatives will bring caskets to the TV, touch it, and will be raised. Todd Bentley has claimed dozens.
12. Tertullian, Cyprian and Origen refer to exorcisms, healings, and prophecy without any reference to themselves as practicing or producing them.
13. Warfield’s point is that the middle of the second century contains references that are general as noted above.
Philip Schaff is quoted: “It is remarkable that the genuine writings of the ante-Nicene church are more free from miraculous and superstitious elements than the annals of the Nicene age and the Middle Ages…Most of the statement of the apologists are couched in general terms, and refer to extraordinary cures from demoniacal possession…and other diseases…Justin Martyr speaks of such occurrences as frequent…and Origen appeals to his own personal observation, but speaks in another place of the growing scarcity of miracles.” History of the Christian Church, Vol. 2, 117.
Again, re: Origen, “But there were signs from the Holy Spirit at the beginning of Christ’s teaching, and after His ascension He exhibited more, but subsequently fewer.” Origen, while noting some miracles in his time, observed that for all practical purposes, they had ceased.
14. Eusebius notes one resurrection from the dead, one in Philip’s house, the deacon of the apostolic church. Papias reported this. However, it was so uncommon by context, that it’s miraculousness was significant to Papias. Papias, a direct student and disciple of John the Apostle all but implies that “signs, wonders, and miracles” were not even common place. Barnard remarks: “If they were frequent, if he had even seen one himself, he would have told us of it, or to speak more accurately, Eusebius would not have selected for quotation a second-hand story, if evidence of a direct eyewitness was on record.” J.H. Bernard, any essay entitled “The Miraculous in Early Christian Literature” in a volume called “The Literature of the Second Century.” We would add another detail re: Papias, St. John’s disciple, that he wrote a 5-volume commentary on the Gospels. A few notes here: 1) The work did not survive except for fragments. It was probably confiscated in imperial “book burnings” including NT canons. 2) This involvement with the Gospels indicates that Biblical exposition was essential to church life.
15. Romanists have long catalogues of miracles, called teratology or teratoliges. More later on that. Pentecostalists, with their crafty and blasphemous Arminianism, fit in with the Romanists as well as the false Gospel.
Reformed Anglicanism: B.B. Warfield's "Counterfeit Miracles," 3-20
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