Skeptical of Charismatic theology

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Maybe it's the Presbyterian in me talking.

but it's getting to the stage now where the more I get to know of charismatic theology the more skeptical I am of it, not to mention reading the testimonies of a couple of people on here who used to be pentacostals but now are not believers.

example, there's a girl in my youth group (i'm a leader there) and she was talking to me about how god gave her a prophecy about her best friend, and how she was under "spiritual attack" at one stage (even though those bastards were defeated when Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected). First off I was under the impression we live in an age of fulfillment rather than prophecies. Then you hear the charismatic stories of people who died and went to hell (for a brief period), then were brought back.

then there's all the ambiguous phrases eg - "slain in the spirit". then of course there's the danger of their faith being based on a "spiritual experience" rather than an unshakable conviction Jesus died on a cross for our sins then rose again.

then topical preaching - the books in the bible were made to be read as exactly that. A whole book in it's own context and in the wider context of the bible itself, and how to read and interpret the bible properly and not reading your own experiences into it.

so many of the leaders at my youth group are charismatics, and sometimes I just feel like shaking them repeatedly, and at our youth summer camp it's so charismatically done. almost to the point of emotional manipulation.

then you get statements like "I wasn't feeling close to god". it's not about feeling at all (the heart is deceitful), it's about faith. trusting that god is always there, because you are his much loved son/daughter



this is a bit of rant to be honest, as I keep holding my tongue because they get so (or appear to get so) easily defensive (the other leaders in my group). But really I'd just like some opinions/suggestions about the points I've raised, maybe some bible references in respect to what I've said/what you may suggest in reply :)
 
Maybe it's the Presbyterian in me talking.

but it's getting to the stage now where the more I get to know of charismatic theology the more skeptical I am of it, not to mention reading the testimonies of a couple of people on here who used to be pentacostals but now are not believers.

example, there's a girl in my youth group (i'm a leader there) and she was talking to me about how god gave her a prophecy about her best friend, and how she was under "spiritual attack" at one stage (even though those bastards were defeated when Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected). First off I was under the impression we live in an age of fulfillment rather than prophecies. Then you hear the charismatic stories of people who died and went to hell (for a brief period), then were brought back.

then there's all the ambiguous phrases eg - "slain in the spirit". then of course there's the danger of their faith being based on a "spiritual experience" rather than an unshakable conviction Jesus died on a cross for our sins then rose again.

then topical preaching - the books in the bible were made to be read as exactly that. A whole book in it's own context and in the wider context of the bible itself, and how to read and interpret the bible properly and not reading your own experiences into it.

so many of the leaders at my youth group are charismatics, and sometimes I just feel like shaking them repeatedly, and at our youth summer camp it's so charismatically done. almost to the point of emotional manipulation.

then you get statements like "I wasn't feeling close to god". it's not about feeling at all (the heart is deceitful), it's about faith. trusting that god is always there, because you are his much loved son/daughter



this is a bit of rant to be honest, as I keep holding my tongue because they get so (or appear to get so) easily defensive (the other leaders in my group). But really I'd just like some opinions/suggestions about the points I've raised, maybe some bible references in respect to what I've said/what you may suggest in reply :)

hey how ya goin mate,
well its good to be skeptical and question am pentecoastal ma self and i stiil don agree wid some charizmatic doctorines esp the ones on u tube and big shots
but don mean everyone in da denomination is a heretic,there are bad apples on presbterian too its in all denomination where ppl are moved by either emotion manupulation or the success of the ministry..
its not what denomination u into its do u seek him.will u bow down on ur knees wen no man is watching,
i lyk how ravenhill said
if a christian is not prayin he is playing,
we are to grow in holyness, we are to study his word and be well equipped,christianity doesnt need another feel good experience what it needs to God z presence baked by the power of his word
i don care how much a person prophecies if the person don have a secret fellowship wid God its just a noise really,
God is looking for one who seeks him wid all thier heart deligently and not casually
 
this is a bit of rant to be honest, as I keep holding my tongue because they get so (or appear to get so) easily defensive (the other leaders in my group). But really I'd just like some opinions/suggestions about the points I've raised, maybe some bible references in respect to what I've said/what you may suggest in reply :)

I went to a Pentecostal church for a few months. You would expect the elders of the church to be the most spiritual and the most wise. Yet I met up with the older people of this church, who supposedly been baptized in the Spirit decades ago, acting like babes in Christ. You would think this Baptism of the Holy Spirit would mature a believer over time. But these elders spent half their time talking about how my previous church was in sin because of what it taught.

Also, notice how Pentecostals pray. They heap phrases upon themselves, repeating the same thing over and over like "Yes" and "Thank you Jesus." Excuse me, but didn't Jesus tell us NOT to do that? (Matthew 6:7)

I had Pentecostals lay hands on me one time, and they picked up a "vibe" (I guess) from me and actually accused me of witchcraft because they could "sense" it! Or they told me that someone in my family must practice it! That I need to "renounce" it.

And of course, they think that by saying "In the name of Jesus" they can get God to do whatever they want Him to do, or even more worse, something they think they do themselves! (Of course, they say they do it with the power of Jesus.)

And as I said before, they criticize other churches as not having "the whole Bible." Other churches are not following the whole Bible, they are not "full gospel" churches. I got so sick and tired of these Pentecostals sitting up on their high horse, thinking they're better than other churches because they believe in Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

In my opinion, the gifts died with the Peter and the rest. If you actually start of discuss the gifts with Pentecostals, they have made up many rules pertaining to these gifts, which are not in Scripture.

Nothing against Pentecostals, there will be many of them in heaven, but based on all this, I've concluded Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not for today.
 
baptist/pentacostal worship leaders - stop playing gentle guitar in the background while the pastor/leader/youth leader speaks to try make it more emotional

I just experienced it and I find it vastly frustrating, I'm there to learn God's word in a sober and mature way, and apply it accordingly

again, another point of frustration - is there anyone here that has experienced this (and the points I've raised before) and agrees?
 
I went to a Pentecostal church for a few months. You would expect the elders of the church to be the most spiritual and the most wise. Yet I met up with the older people of this church, who supposedly been baptized in the Spirit decades ago, acting like babes in Christ. You would think this Baptism of the Holy Spirit would mature a believer over time. But these elders spent half their time talking about how my previous church was in sin because of what it taught.

Also, notice how Pentecostals pray. They heap phrases upon themselves, repeating the same thing over and over like "Yes" and "Thank you Jesus." Excuse me, but didn't Jesus tell us NOT to do that? (Matthew 6:7)

I had Pentecostals lay hands on me one time, and they picked up a "vibe" (I guess) from me and actually accused me of witchcraft because they could "sense" it! Or they told me that someone in my family must practice it! That I need to "renounce" it.

And of course, they think that by saying "In the name of Jesus" they can get God to do whatever they want Him to do, or even more worse, something they think they do themselves! (Of course, they say they do it with the power of Jesus.)

And as I said before, they criticize other churches as not having "the whole Bible." Other churches are not following the whole Bible, they are not "full gospel" churches. I got so sick and tired of these Pentecostals sitting up on their high horse, thinking they're better than other churches because they believe in Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

In my opinion, the gifts died with the Peter and the rest. If you actually start of discuss the gifts with Pentecostals, they have made up many rules pertaining to these gifts, which are not in Scripture.

Nothing against Pentecostals, there will be many of them in heaven, but based on all this, I've concluded Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not for today.

that's a big issue for me, so much of it seems to be based on feel, it's like butting my head against the wall
 
that's a big issue for me, so much of it seems to be based on feel, it's like butting my head against the wall

mmm rest in God's words, and pray for the individuals you know to move closer to GOD and not their own emotion and experiences...

2 Timothy 4:3-5
New King James Version (NKJV)
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
 
Oh no, skeptical thoughts. Let's drown it out with some irrelevant bible verses and bad hymn songs.
 
By the sounds of what you're saying you sound like you struggle with a lot of similar things I struggle with at my church.
 
Honestly I say question things.

I am not a Christian because I was taught to be or because of some promise about heaven.

I am a Christian because nothing else seems to make sense.

Always seek truth, no matter where it leads you. Though honestly it's just going to bring you back to the bible. Fulfilled prophecies... they are just far to amazing to be able to ignore when seeking truth.
 
On Glossologia
Ch. 18 from The Truth of Our Faith
by Elder Cleopa of Romania
Inquirer: What is glossologia or speaking in tongues?


Elder Cleopa: "Glossologia, or speaking in tongues, as a gift of the Holy Spirit, is the ability to speak a foreign language without having to be taught it or knowing it beforehand. This is clear from the Holy Scriptures in which the events of Pentecost are described, and at which time this divine gift first appeared. The text is unabbreviated and unambiguous and recounts for us an actual event. Consequently, the text itself cannot be explained with some particular mystical or spiritual meaning alone, omitting the literal meaning.

Lets allow the passage from the Acts of the Apostles itself to explain what the text means and what comprises the speaking of foreign tongues by the Grace of the Holy Spirit:

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine (Acts 2:1-13).

From an examination of these thirteen verses that contain the key to the solution of the problem, we can educe the following conclusions:

- The speaking of foreign tongues or languages, by the grace of the Holy Spirit, manifested itself, as a miracle, for the first time in history. For this reason the reader is provided with an extensive description, that he may be able to learn what this miracle is and in what it consists.

- With this powerful gift of the Holy Spirit the Apostles began to preach in other languages, even 15 different local languages of other tribes and nations that had converged there for the feast of Pentecost.

- The Jews of other nations, who had as their mother tongue the language of the nation in which they lived, marvelled when they heard the Apostles preach in their own language, for the Apostles were simple men of Galilee and it was impossible for them to know another language except the Aramaic they had learned at home.

- The Jews of other nations understood everything from the divine preaching of the Apostles. They spoke to them with precision in their own language concerning the greatness of God, without needing a translator, and it is in exactly this that the miracle rests. The visitors to Jerusalem were unable to explain what they witnessed and were full of wonder.

- Among the listeners of the preaching there were also some that did not understand anything that the Apostles said and subsequently mocked the Apostles, thinking that they were drunk. This group can be none other than the residents of Jerusalem, and perhaps those of nearby Palestine, who didnt know other languages except their mother tongue, Aramaic. For these men the preaching of the Apostles was completely unintelligible and they considered it simply sputtering.

Thus, the residents didnt understand anything from the preaching, unless someone translated it for them. For just as there is the gift of speaking in tongues or foreign languages, there also exists the gift of translation. This was given, as is apparent below, when those listening were only locals ignorant of other languages, as was, for example, the case in Corinth (1 Cor. 14). In Jerusalem, however, during this period there was not felt this deficiency. The gift of translation was itself also miraculous, just as was that of glossologia, on which it was directly dependent. Not having this gift the residents who were listening judged the work of the Apostles according to their personal determination and perception alone.

Glossologia was a sign of the power of God and, as a decisive means of proselytism, was manifested among men who ignored the Faith (1 Cor. 14:21-25). For, apart from this, what meaning does it have for someone to speak about Christ in a foreign language if he was taught, believed and lived his faith in Christ from his childhood years?

If there are those who speak foreign languages and they are not understood by anyone, how do they build up the Church or benefit it? For the purpose of glossologia was for the Apostles to be able to spread, via the transmission of the kerygma (preaching) in foreign languages, the Faith of Christians to all people and to make the Gospel known throughout the world, as it is written: Their sound hath gone forth into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world (Ps. 18:4).

If someone had this gift, we must not think that it was the greatest among the gifts of God. The Apostle Paul says that there are other, greater gifts of the Holy Spirit than that of glossologia. I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edification (1 Cor. 14:5). And elsewhere he also says, If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? (1 Cor. 14:23).

Consequently, the gifts of prophecy, of preaching and of interpretation of Scripture are much higher than the gift of glossologia, for with these the Church of Christ is built up and benefited much more than with the gift of linguistics or speaking different languages (1 Cor. 14: 2-4). More sublime and higher than all the gifts is love, about which listen to what the Apostle Paul has to say: Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal (1 Cor. 13:1).

Inq.: It is claimed by certain people that when the grace of the Holy Spirit comes to them and they begin to speak in tongues, they find themselves in a state of ecstasy. It is only at this time that they are able to speak certain inarticulate and incomprehensible human sounds, to have certain internal impulses or exclamations of joy, or to voice a certain remorse for their sins, as well as other movements of the body which are made by the action of the grace of the Holy Spirit. Saul had a similar spiritual manifestation when following David and going to Ramah. He was overcome by the prophetic spirit and with a flurry he prophesied, ripped his clothes off and went naked all day and all night (1 Sam. 19:22-24).

EC: It is incomprehensible for a healthy, clear and well-balanced intellect to reveal the great mysteries of God with inarticulate exclamations. Such a thing is not at all the same, as we know from that which was revealed through glossologia as a divine gift (1 Cor. 14: 2-4).

The Greek idol-worshipers of antiquity had similar exhibitions when they prayed to their gods Dionysus, Zeus and the others. When they were found before a diabolic idol they would fall into ecstasy or a trance, shaking and making rhythmic movements with their body, and tumble on the ground, with a few even foaming at the mouth like the demon-possessed of olden times. Next they would get up and sing rhapsodic melodies and make exclamations with demonic delight. The same happened with the Montanists, heretics of the first and second centuries after Christ, the Gnostics, and later the Methodists, the Quakers, the Pentecostals and others. These groups took to making uncanny and strange turns and movements of the body, had hallucinations and were in delusion, and thought that all of this came from God, when in actuality it comes from theologians of darkness who are familiar with Holy Scripture and who lead into delusion the unsuspecting, cheating them with words taken even from Holy Scripture.

Inq.: These people also say that with the charisma of glossologia that they possess, they maintain unbroken the work of the Holy Spirit among men and within the Church of Christ as it existed in the beginning of Christianity. For, they claim, today, as also in the beginning, with this perceptible sign of the gift of grace, the Holy Spirit stirs wonder and amazement in those who as yet are not Christians. Furthermore, with this visible sign of the gift of speaking in tongues, it becomes known to the faithful that there still exists a work of the Holy Spirit in the Church as in the first period of Christians in Jerusalem.

EC: The gift of speaking in foreign tongues or glossologia was not given by God for all time, until the end of the world. It was a sign given to the Church only for a time, with the aim of making it easier for those of other religions to convert to Christianity. We see, in this respect, that the Jews of Jerusalem, who did not understand the preaching of the Apostles - kerygma given by divine grace - did not, in fact, believe but rather said that the Apostles were drunk. The Prophet Isaiah prophesied concerning their disbelief before this great gift of grace, saying, For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear (Isa. 28: 11-12). Indeed, in Jerusalem they spoke to them with lips of strangers, for the foreign Jews, or Jews of the Diaspora, heard about the wondrous works of God in their own languages and believed (Acts 2:11). And thus it is that the Apostle Paul prophesied that the gift of speaking in foreign tongues would cease (1 Cor. 13:8 , 1 Cor. 14:22-28).

The people of that time were spiritually in the age of infancy, for only just before had they left the worship of idols and their intellects were blurred, confused and insensible. They were still captives to the enjoyment of the fleshly pleasures and did not have knowledge of the divine gifts that one enjoys only on account of faith. It is for this reason that signs and wonders were then showered upon them.

Some spiritual gifts are invisible and become accessible to man via faith. Others, however, are visible on account of the unbelief of men. Here is an example: The forgiveness of sins is an invisible spiritual work. We do not see with our sensible eyes how we are purified of our sins. Why? Because neither is the soul that is purified visible to the eyes of our body. Speaking in different tongues or languages is also a work of the Holy Spirit, but it is a visible sign and more easily persuades those of other religions. Hence, the reason Saint Paul says the following: Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe (1 Cor. 14:22). He who believes doesnt have need of guarantees and signs. The first Christians would not have believed if they had not received signs.

Inq.: From those who I spoke to I learned that besides the gift of speaking in tongues, they have also the gift of the baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire (Lk. 3:16) which is totally different from baptism with water. This baptism showers upon them various miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, especially that of glossologia and the interpretation of Scripture, as happened also at Pentecost with the Apostles.

EC: Is it possible that there are two Christian baptisms? Doesnt it say in Holy Scripture that there is one and only one? St. Paul tells us there is but one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all ... (Eph. 4:5; See also:1 Cor. 12:13). The baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire (Lk. 3:16) of Pentecost is none other than the Christian baptism which was pre-announced by both Saint John the Baptist and the Saviour Himself (Mt. 3:11, Acts 1:5) and which He said would happen by water and the Spirit - baptism neither by water alone, as with the baptism of John, nor only by the Spirit (Jn. 3:5). These two elements, the one visible and the other invisible, constitute the two most necessary prerequisites for the one and only Christian baptism. If, with respect to the practice of this mystery, some still speak only of water or only of the Spirit as constituting the main element of this Mystery, let them know that the Mystery is one and only one and its two elements are inseparable.

Inq.: Each Christian should have within him the Holy Spirit. The members of a certain Christian brotherhood say that while they can give evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit within them through the practice of speaking in foreign speech, the Orthodox are not able to show this by any means. Consequently, they say that the Orthodox are not true Christians due to the absence of this work of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

EC: It is true that each Christian should have consciously within himself the Holy Spirit. Yet, the presence of the Holy Spirit is not only made manifest via glossologia. The Apostle Paul tells us that But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance ... (Gal. 5: 22-23). Do you see, therefore, that among the fruits of the Holy Spirit the practice of speaking in foreign languages is not referred to anywhere? This is the case because it is a gift of the Holy Spirit that was given for a certain period of time in the Church, while the gifts referred to here by the Apostle, all Christians, of every epoch, must have throughout their life. Whoever has the fruits of the Spirit has also the Holy Spirit within him. The gift of glossologia is not a common gift of grace but something special and not given to everyone (1 Cor. 12:10). How, then, can we consider it a precondition of salvation and a prerequisite for the presence of the Holy Spirit in our life when it is not given to everyone? The Apostle Paul says, Do all speak in tongues? (1 Cor. 12:30). Consequently, then, those who do not speak in tongues can also be good Christians. In the community of true Christians everyone does not have the same gifts. The Apostles did not require this gift from all the Christians, and indeed, in quite a few it was revealed that this talent was profitless. The Apostles themselves did not use this gift, apart from exceptional cases when they had a certain aim, as on the day of Pentecost. So, therefore, it should be clear that they did not call upon every Christian to have this gift as a means of salvation.

Inq.: I would like, after all that we have said concerning glossologia, for you to summarize exactly the main points of our discussion.

EC: Listen, brother, and guard well within your mind: True glossologia as a gift of the Holy Spirit can be recognized only when it is combined with the following presuppositions.

1) If someone, by inspiration [of the Holy Spirit], speaks a language, it should be understood by all those who stand nearby, as happened in the case that we cited from the Acts of the Apostles (Acts 2:1-13).

2) When someone speaks a language among the residents [of Jerusalem, Corinth etc.] that they do not understand, then another gift, the gift of translation of this language into the language of the people is necessary. Without this translation the foreign language is babbling and lunacy (1 Cor. 14:23).

3) Glossologia was not given to the Church forever, but only in the beginning of Christianity in order to awaken the idol-worshippers and Jews to belief in Christ. This is why the Apostle Paul said that the gift of glossologia would at some point cease to exist in the Church (1 Cor. 13:8).

4) Since we believe that Christ is our true God we no longer have need of glossologia, given the fact that the knowledge of foreign languages by inspiration [of the Holy Spirit] is a sign (miracle) necessary only for the unbelieving and not for the faithful (1 Cor. 14:22).

5) From the beginning of Christianity the gift of glossologia was one among the lesser in the Church of Christ, while the others, such as that of prophecy, interpretation of Scripture, of love and the rest, were much greater.

6) It is totally out of the question for speaking in tongues, as a gift of the Holy Spirit, to mean a delirium in a non-existent and incomprehensible language, for then it wouldnt be speaking in languages, but our own [exclusive] language (Mk. 16:17). Moreover, it comes into clear contradiction with chapter two of the Acts of the Apostles.

7) The inarticulate voices, lunacies and incoherent utterances which we often hear from the self-proclaimed speakers of tongues very much resembles the scenes the idol-worshippers would make before their idols of Dionysus, as well as with quite a few of the Montanists, Gnostics, Quakers, and later Pentecostals, all of whom the true Church of Christ anathematizes (See the first and second Canons of the Sixth Oecumenical Council).

Thus, brother, foreign to the Spirit of God is the speaking in tongues of those who think they are grace-bearers and make bold to misconstrue the true glossologia, a gift of the Holy Spirit which existed at the outset of Christianity.

* Translators note: Literally, the Greek word translates as linguistics. Due to a popular misconception among English speaking people, the translation of ’947;’955;’969;’963;’963;’959;’955;’959;’947;’943;’945; is troublesome. In this chapter the word has been rendered variously as glossologia, speaking a foreign language, speaking a foreign tongue, linguistics, and speaking in tongues. The English dictionary gives for glossology: The science of language; linguistics."

Ch. 18. from The Truth of Our Faith: A Discourse from Holy Scripture on the
Teachings of True Christianity, By Elder Cleopa of Romania (Greece: Uncut Mountain Press, 2000). Order from Uncut Mountain Supply.
 
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Hiya! I'm charismatic, in the sense that I believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and have received it myself. However, I have found it impossible to find a good Spirit-filled church in my area. For some reason, many charismatics feel the need to show how "in the Spirit" they are, so they often resort to grandstanding. It is a shame, because it turns people off, and disobeys what the bible says about a proper worship service ("decently and in order" does NOT include screaming in a language no one else understands, handling venomous snakes, or cheering Luella on as she dances on a pew in 4-inch heels). Such things can't help but take your mind off the real reason for the service, and they are not proper. However, as wacky as many charismatics are, it is really important to not let the way other people behave influence the way you feel about the things of God. So, if you aren't sure if God still imparts His Holy Spirit to those who ask, why not check with Him about it? Because then you will know for sure, and you won't be taking someone else's word, which the bible warns about. We are only responsible for our own walks with Christ, and if The Holy Spirit is something He wants you to have, it would be a shame to miss out on account of Luella.;) And, for those who have experienced any condemnation for not receiving the Spirit Baptism, I am truly sorry. You are no less of a Christian if you don't ask to be filled with the Holy Spirit, it is a free gift that is available if you want it, but no pressure. Just because the student union is handing out free pizza doesn't mean you have to go get some, but wouldn't it be lousy if I got a slice and didn't tell you where to find it? :) Oh, dear, I shouldn't come up with analogies when dinner is late.........Feel free to PM me with questions, or check out "How to Live Like a King's Kid" by Harold Hill, it was a good book that I enjoyed immensely, very funny & lighthearted. :D

******No offence intended for any snake-handlers or pew-dancers that may be lurking around, but, please, put that thing down and remain seated, for your safety and ours :)******
 
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