Well based on some of his earlier comments, I believe this Jon777 guy would say he doesn't endorse all of the LGBQ+ stuff you mentioned. But as you pointed out, there is a slippery slope with all of this and even small compromises eventually lead to bigger ones. It's like boiling the frog in a kettle. When I was a kid back in the 1970s the big debate was whether homosexuals should even be allowed to be public school teachers to young children. Back then even the most secular and liberal of folks would have considered the idea of same sex marriage to be an absurdity. Fast forward to today and we have self professed "conservatives" affirming same sex marriages and calling down God's blessing upon sodomite unions. Clearly Satan has sent a mass delusion onto our culture including many churches.
So are gays/lesbians nonelects? How do people become gays/lesbians?
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Yous seem to be close to my age as the 1960's sexual revolution started with the removal of Prayer and God from Public schools. The SCOTUS allowed because of one women Madelyn Moreen OHarra. Who was a atheist and hater of Christians. She suffered with her Granddaughter a terrible murder. Her Son came to the Lord. I do not celebrate her death. But the church should have taught Children to pray anyway instead of looking for Legislative approval. Just Like Daniel did. The Three Hebrew Children did. When the salt has lost its effectiveness it will be trampled underfoot my men of the world. Jesus warned of that.
Couldn't agree more. And when I see so many Christians today looking at politicians to define what's moral and acceptable rather than Christ himself, no wonder the church is in such a mess.
To the person who actually has had to be serious in dealing with the question of homosexuality, I’ll suggest you notice the “Insular Commentary” or “Closed Loop Conversation” taking place in this thread. I am now 84-years of age, and as a Christian, I began digging into the hot button issues as homosexuality and abortion in 1995. I know the date because it was when I first went online with the new Windows 95 and found the unmoderated “news groups” or “usenet”. There were those Christian groups where there were no limits or censorship and seminarians and pastors participated as well as nutcases. It was where if you are honest with yourself, you had to rethink, do serious study and be willing to change when challenged and proven wrong. I have some suggestions for anyone who has to deal with homosexual issues that I have learned over the years.
First, use the King James Version which was the translation standard for English speaking people for 400 years and even today, any supposed errors are not in critical passages that affect doctrine.
Second, obey, adhere to, or keep as a guideline what Paul wrote –
“And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.” (1Cor 4:6, KJV)
Third, adhere to the context of a verse, and use the 1828 Webster’s English Dictionary for it is closest in time, to the meaning of the 1611/1769 KJV. *Now to some clobber verses
It is true that in Genesis 19, about the Sodom account, in v1 it states, “all the people”, not just the males, while the topic of sex stands out here, notice it is attempted RAPE, v9. It is NOT a condemnation of a man who genuinely loves another man intimately. See Ezekiel 16:48-50
Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 are thrown at Christian believers under the New Covenant, who in this day are mainly Gentiles, not Jews, BUT the last verse of Leviticus reads “…These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai. (Lev 27:34, KJV) *Anything in Leviticus that eventually applies to Christians is quoted in the New Testament for Christians, “thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD” 19:1b is quoted for the Christian several times in the NT, but it is for Christians because it is in the NT, not because it can be found in the OT; and it is an exact quote in the NT.
Romans 1 “26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.” *In v26 most say that means lesbianism, but notice, NOTHING is stated that the unnatural sex was with other women. BUT if lesbianism cannot be condemned here, there is nowhere else in the Bible it is condemned, so most insist v26 must be about lesbianism. In v27, have YOU left your wife to engage in sex with men? Probably not. So this is not about you.
This is continued in my Reply Following
First, use the King James Version which was the translation standard for English speaking people for 400 years and even today, any supposed errors are not in critical passages that affect doctrine.
Second, obey, adhere to, or keep as a guideline what Paul wrote –
“And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.” (1Cor 4:6, KJV)
Third, adhere to the context of a verse, and use the 1828 Webster’s English Dictionary for it is closest in time, to the meaning of the 1611/1769 KJV. *Now to some clobber verses
It is true that in Genesis 19, about the Sodom account, in v1 it states, “all the people”, not just the males, while the topic of sex stands out here, notice it is attempted RAPE, v9. It is NOT a condemnation of a man who genuinely loves another man intimately. See Ezekiel 16:48-50
Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 are thrown at Christian believers under the New Covenant, who in this day are mainly Gentiles, not Jews, BUT the last verse of Leviticus reads “…These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai. (Lev 27:34, KJV) *Anything in Leviticus that eventually applies to Christians is quoted in the New Testament for Christians, “thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD” 19:1b is quoted for the Christian several times in the NT, but it is for Christians because it is in the NT, not because it can be found in the OT; and it is an exact quote in the NT.
Romans 1 “26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.” *In v26 most say that means lesbianism, but notice, NOTHING is stated that the unnatural sex was with other women. BUT if lesbianism cannot be condemned here, there is nowhere else in the Bible it is condemned, so most insist v26 must be about lesbianism. In v27, have YOU left your wife to engage in sex with men? Probably not. So this is not about you.
This is continued in my Reply Following
“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,” (1Cor 6:9, KJV) *Are you in an abusive relationship? Read the 1828 Webster’s Definition of “abusers” to see if that describes you. The word “effeminate” has NO meaning of sexual acts.
“For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1Tim 1:10, KJV) *Again, read the 1828 Websters on “defile”, are you a rapist? In the context, are you comfortable being associated with “whoremongers” and “menstealers”? I doubt you are.
“And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (Jude 1:6-7, KJV) *This is comparing the book of Enoch belief that the angels had sex with humans, not man to man. In addition, is one male a “strange flesh” to another male? NO!
Stick to what a verse is explicit in its wording, ignore those who read into the verses from their own mental bigotry and biases. Those who read into it are making the serious error called eisegesis and that is a foundational “no no” in knowing what the Bible teaches! Ignore the implications and reading into scripture, by those who condemn men who love men.
If you are going to use a KJV as I recommend, buy a “Reference Bible”, NOT a “Study Bible”. A Study Bible is giving you man’s opinions. The reference Bible includes at least a good Cross Reference with the verses, a good concordance (word locator list) as a minimum. The KJV Reference Bible I use is rather pricey. It includes the full dedication to King James, and the large section ‘To the Reader’, Cross References with the verses, a Glossary of outdated KJV words, a Concordance, a Concise Bible dictionary and the maps. I have many Bibles, and this is by far my favorite.
This Edition you can see and buy on Christianbook.com at $129.50 with free shipping... I'm not gaining a commission.
KJV Cambridge Concord Reference Bible--calf-split leather, black
Bound in black calf-split leather—a fresh binding style for this edition, the Cambridge Concord Edition has been a favorite presentation of the KJV for over half a century. Calf-split leather is a superior grade to French Morocco leather, tanned to approach the quality and feel of full-grain...
www.christianbook.com
If you wish to search for best prices, search for: KJV Cambridge ISBN 9781107602656
I would suggest that those who are seriously seeking the truth, go back weeks into the thread of my posts and see that I quote Scripture, when I have an opinion, I give an authoritative backup you can usually see online.
And for those who want to make sure they are not deceived by the false teachers Jon is encouraging everyone to listen to, I would recommend they look into the works of Robert Gagnon professor of New Testament Theology at Houston Baptist University. He has all the scholarly credentials that Jon feels are so important, and his works have been endorsed by numerous other "recognized" scholars. For a brief summation of Gagnon's rebuttals to the arguments Jon is making here is a good link: https://banneroftruth.org/us/resour...pomVRSk_XVfZgMjFwwyLmQ5MvkbgBcuqR9NMcrIwI148m“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,” (1Cor 6:9, KJV) *Are you in an abusive relationship? Read the 1828 Webster’s Definition of “abusers” to see if that describes you. The word “effeminate” has NO meaning of sexual acts.
“For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1Tim 1:10, KJV) *Again, read the 1828 Websters on “defile”, are you a rapist? In the context, are you comfortable being associated with “whoremongers” and “menstealers”? I doubt you are.
“And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (Jude 1:6-7, KJV) *This is comparing the book of Enoch belief that the angels had sex with humans, not man to man. In addition, is one male a “strange flesh” to another male? NO!
Stick to what a verse is explicit in its wording, ignore those who read into the verses from their own mental bigotry and biases. Those who read into it are making the serious error called eisegesis and that is a foundational “no no” in knowing what the Bible teaches! Ignore the implications and reading into scripture, by those who condemn men who love men.
If you are going to use a KJV as I recommend, buy a “Reference Bible”, NOT a “Study Bible”. A Study Bible is giving you man’s opinions. The reference Bible includes at least a good Cross Reference with the verses, a good concordance (word locator list) as a minimum. The KJV Reference Bible I use is rather pricey. It includes the full dedication to King James, and the large section ‘To the Reader’, Cross References with the verses, a Glossary of outdated KJV words, a Concordance, a Concise Bible dictionary and the maps. I have many Bibles, and this is by far my favorite.
This Edition you can see and buy on Christianbook.com at $129.50 with free shipping... I'm not gaining a commission.
KJV Cambridge Concord Reference Bible--calf-split leather, black
Bound in black calf-split leather—a fresh binding style for this edition, the Cambridge Concord Edition has been a favorite presentation of the KJV for over half a century. Calf-split leather is a superior grade to French Morocco leather, tanned to approach the quality and feel of full-grain...
If you wish to search for best prices, search for: KJV Cambridge ISBN 9781107602656
I would suggest that those who are seriously seeking the truth, go back weeks into the thread of my posts and see that I quote Scripture, when I have an opinion, I give an authoritative backup you can usually see online.
For a more comprehensive look at all the materials Gagnon has produced, follow this link: http://www.robgagnon.net/Index.html
David Guy Myers (born September 20, 1942, Seattle) is a professor of psychology at Hope College in Holland, Michigan, where he has taught since 1967. His academic background includes: B.A. in Chemistry, Whitworth University (1964) M.A. and Ph.D. in Social Psychology, University of Iowa (1966–67) AM. Hope College is a four-year liberal arts college where academic excellence and vibrant Christian faith join together in a supportive and welcoming community. Dr. Myers is the Author of 17+ books, including the most assigned introductory psychology textbooks in U.S. colleges.
Wikipedia on Robert Gagnon:
Robert A. J. Gagnon - Wikipedia
(Appearances say a lot)
A running dialogue between Dr. Myers and Dr. Robert Gagnon:
Myers: Changing Sexual Orientation? A Look at the Data
Changing Sexual Orientation? A Look at the Data - Reformed Journal
Gagnon: A Response to Myers and Scanzoni, What God Has Joined Together? (A huge article)
Why the Disagreement Over the Biblical Witness on Homosexual Practice
Myers: Another Christian Perspective on Homosexuality and the Church
2/14/06 1st Draft---not for circulation
Dr. Myers did come out in support of gay marriage, which I do NOT support.
Dr. Myers has a web site in which he posts many articles, including that of Robert Gagnon –
Sexual Orientation | David Myers
If you wish to read what man concludes, you can read these,…. If you wish to read what God says, you can read the KJV Bible!
Sure Jon, because we all know that "looks" are a good indicator of whether someone is teaching the truth! But I suppose only a homosexual would take notice and care what another man looks like.
"But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.” (1 Chron 16:7)
IF you, after reading the word of God and being 84 came up with this unbiblical position and say :
It was where if you are honest with yourself, you had to rethink, do serious study and be willing to change when challenged and proven wrong. I have some suggestions for anyone who has to deal with homosexual issues that I have learned over the years.
Your use of Romans chapter 1 is out of context. You only quoted 26 and 27. However the context is much higher in the chapter which you left out.
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
Why did you leave this out? The issue here is Cause and Effect of man and women who do what?
- Cause :They did not glorify him as God nor were thankful
- Effects: became futile in their thoughts and their foolish heart was darkened.
Effects: 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
The reason why the words gay, Lesbianism, and transgender is not in the word of God is because they were created from a present culture perverted Generation.
Therefore God is saying here because they would not listen to truth and sound reasoning HE removed His hand and gave them over to what they were lusting for.
"love neighbor as thyself" Doesn't mean have same sex.
A Holy God said in Genesis 2:24 For this reason shall a man leave his mother and father and join with his wife. What God has joined together let nothing separate. Jesus reenforced this in Matthew 19: 3-4 when he was speaking about divorce.
in verses 7-9 Jesus addresses the Pharisees over willingness to support leaving ones wife.
7 They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”
8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”
How does one look at all scripture that speak on sexual relationship that 100% says its in marriage only, and God names the list of sins that happen when one has sex with one other than his wife, or before marriage. Then after saying this, some how lowered his standard to mean one can be with a man and is a man?
That is a perversion of the word of God. It is an Abomination for a man to sleep with another man as he does with a women. Very clear. it is not love it is lust as Romans chapter one states.