So I am debating a Catholic on salvation and works....

[Blain]

This is just something I am trying to debate and learn about with a Catholic on another site who believes firmly that our works are not only required but that they are what save us and more importantly keep us saved I respond with the firm belief that works are required yes but are the results evidence and fruits of a saved reborn new person changed believer and that it is grace and faith that save us and keep us saved not our works

The basis for my view is this Ephesians 2:8-9, which says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast"

However then comes the issue of sin and losing ones salvation they claim that sin can make us lose our salvation I claim our sins are paid for on the cross and that since salvation is a figt from God not of our own doing as taught in the verse above that sin has no power over us and while we do stumble and fall short into sin we are covered by the blood and love of Jesus Christ.

They then go on to say I claim we can sin as we please and not obey him because I say our sins are covered which is not what I am saying because no true born again believer would do this sin disgusts them and they strive to live righteously

I say however that one can forfeit their salvation by chasing the lusts of the flesh but this si not the same as losing ones salvation due to shortcomings because the new person in a changed heart always strives to live according to God's desires even though they fall short

However it is possible to stray as we all do from time to time. they counter this by saying that Jesus taught us that works save us and they claim this but do not give concrete scripture that says this they instead use scripture that teaches of obdeience and about the prodigal son and this is their basis for their understandding of it the person was saved became lost and was saved again therefore we can lose our salvation

Now to me the prodigal son did not lose his salvation because he fell short and his sin was so great he lost his salvation rather to me this appears to be a saved person forfeiting their salvation by chasing the lusrts of the flesh

But what do you all think? who is not being clear in this debate and who is right in this bedate? it is an on going one and I try to reason with this person but to no avail

 

[Brasspen]

Our sins are forgiven, 'Yesterday, Today and tomorrow.' All of our sins are forgiven. And, we are no longer under law. You are right we are not saved by works, but by grace.

 

[JohnDB]

This is just something I am trying to debate and learn about with a Catholic on another site who believes firmly that our works are not only required but that they are what save us and more importantly keep us saved I respond with the firm belief that works are required yes but are the results evidence and fruits of a saved reborn new person changed believer and that it is grace and faith that save us and keep us saved not our works

The basis for my view is this Ephesians 2:8-9, which says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast"

However then comes the issue of sin and losing ones salvation they claim that sin can make us lose our salvation I claim our sins are paid for on the cross and that since salvation is a figt from God not of our own doing as taught in the verse above that sin has no power over us and while we do stumble and fall short into sin we are covered by the blood and love of Jesus Christ.

They then go on to say I claim we can sin as we please and not obey him because I say our sins are covered which is not what I am saying because no true born again believer would do this sin disgusts them and they strive to live righteously

I say however that one can forfeit their salvation by chasing the lusts of the flesh but this si not the same as losing ones salvation due to shortcomings because the new person in a changed heart always strives to live according to God's desires even though they fall short

However it is possible to stray as we all do from time to time. they counter this by saying that Jesus taught us that works save us and they claim this but do not give concrete scripture that says this they instead use scripture that teaches of obdeience and about the prodigal son and this is their basis for their understandding of it the person was saved became lost and was saved again therefore we can lose our salvation

Now to me the prodigal son did not lose his salvation because he fell short and his sin was so great he lost his salvation rather to me this appears to be a saved person forfeiting their salvation by chasing the lusrts of the flesh

But what do you all think? who is not being clear in this debate and who is right in this bedate? it is an on going one and I try to reason with this person but to no avail

Justification (salvation) is a gift from God provided by Jesus's Death.
Sanctification is the process of transforming your life to be more like Jesus.

No amount of sanctification has ever provided a molecule of justification.

The story of the prodigal son is an allegorical tale....meaning fictional and not all elements are designed for truth.
Also,
The prodigal son tale is told in Luke...not Matthew. It is the 3rd and 4th installment of a discussion of sin vx forgiveness and the angry brother does not get to receive his rewards due to his anger. IOW unforgiven.

To use it as a backdrop to prove that osas is wrong, is a warping of scripture....its not designed to prove that point....its designed for another point altogether.

As far as arguing over osas....
In John's gospel account he shows all of the long held arguments that have spanned thousands of years. This OSAS argument is nothing new....in the story of the man born blind (takes up a huge section) Peter asked the question, "Who sinned?"

Because they wondered why someone was born non-Jewish, why they were born with various deformities....the obvious answer was sin but was the sin corporate or individual? Why did God curse some people but not others. Why were some people destined for hell but others were not?
Framed a bit differently but essentially all the same elements of Calvinism. (Including osas)

Notice the action in John....everyone was so caught up in being right in theology they ignored the miracle and the Messiah who performed it.


Ask yourself....is God good? Like so busy being good He doesn't have time to be bad?
You trust him with your eternal life....why not trust him over this too?

 

[Magenta]

They then go on to say I claim we can sin as we please and not obey him because I say our sins are covered which is not
what I am saying because no true born again believer would do this sin disgusts them and they strive to live righteously

Since that is not what you are saying you can point out to them that they are sinning by bearing false witness against you. They say they strive to live righteously but nobody does so they also sin and if they claim they do not then the truth is not in them as per 1 John 1 v 8.

1 John 1 v 8-10~ If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the Truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His Word is not in us.
.

 

[God-fearing]

We are saved to do good works but we can never do enough good works to be saved.

The atonement of Christ has made peace between God and man. Gods work was for us to believe in his son.
Ask him how can he keep his salvation when Christ said it is finished.?
Ask him how can he keep his salvation when Christ alone is his salvation? Does he think that his good works compare to what Jesus
Did upon the cross?
If our performance is a matter of keeping our salvation then who is perfect? But if we sin let it be known we have a mediator which is again Christ Jesus. It's not about us its about him and what he has done for us so that he can work through us. Bringing Glory to the father. Amen

 

[Magenta]

We are saved to do good works but we can never do enough good works to be saved.

The atonement of Christ has made peace between God and man. Gods work was for us to believe in his son.
Ask him how can he keep his salvation when Christ said it is finished.?
Ask him how can he keep his salvation when Christ alone is his salvation? Does he think that his good works compare to what Jesus
Did upon the cross?
If our performance is a matter of keeping our salvation then who is perfect? But if we sin let it be known we have a mediator which is again Christ Jesus. It's not about us its about him and what he has done for us so that he can work through us. Bringing Glory to the father. Amen

1 Corinthians 1 v 30-31 ~ It is because of God that you are in Christ Jesus, Who has become for us wisdom from God: our righteousness, holiness, and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

The prodigal son tale is told in Luke...not Matthew. It is the 3rd and 4th installment of a discussion of sin vx forgiveness and the angry brother does not get to receive his rewards due to his anger. IOW unforgiven.

I just read through the parable in Luke 15. Where does it talk about rewards?

All I see the in the parable are about inheritance? "All that is mine is yours" said the father to his older son meaning the prodigal son who squandered all his inheritance won't get more.

And it doesn't say whether the older son remained angry. He is the obedient son who remained loyal to his father and faithfully worked for his father. If he is that loyal and obedient to his father, he likely stopped being angry and had forgiven his brother.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

This is just something I am trying to debate and learn about with a Catholic on another site who believes firmly that our works are not only required but that they are what save us and more importantly keep us saved I respond with the firm belief that works are required yes but are the results evidence and fruits of a saved reborn new person changed believer and that it is grace and faith that save us and keep us saved not our works

The basis for my view is this Ephesians 2:8-9, which says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast"

However then comes the issue of sin and losing ones salvation they claim that sin can make us lose our salvation I claim our sins are paid for on the cross and that since salvation is a figt from God not of our own doing as taught in the verse above that sin has no power over us and while we do stumble and fall short into sin we are covered by the blood and love of Jesus Christ.

They then go on to say I claim we can sin as we please and not obey him because I say our sins are covered which is not what I am saying because no true born again believer would do this sin disgusts them and they strive to live righteously

I say however that one can forfeit their salvation by chasing the lusts of the flesh but this si not the same as losing ones salvation due to shortcomings because the new person in a changed heart always strives to live according to God's desires even though they fall short

However it is possible to stray as we all do from time to time. they counter this by saying that Jesus taught us that works save us and they claim this but do not give concrete scripture that says this they instead use scripture that teaches of obdeience and about the prodigal son and this is their basis for their understandding of it the person was saved became lost and was saved again therefore we can lose our salvation

Now to me the prodigal son did not lose his salvation because he fell short and his sin was so great he lost his salvation rather to me this appears to be a saved person forfeiting their salvation by chasing the lusrts of the flesh

But what do you all think? who is not being clear in this debate and who is right in this bedate? it is an on going one and I try to reason with this person but to no avail

Catholics have sacraments which they are taught impart grace in order to be saved.
Their most common sacrament they focus on is the Mass/ Eucharist. In this, their priests offer a perpetual sacrifice, they believe, through the literal body and blood of Jesus in hidden form. They redefine terms and look at their good deeds as grace instead of what is rejected by proper understanding of Scripture.

It is impossible for them to get saved until they see that they are personally lost first. Then you have to be cautious to clarify the common front loading or back loading of works as is a common confusion.

Hebrews 10: 10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: ...
18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."

Perhaps I can find an example of someone leading a Catholic to the Lord if I can. A lot of Catholics get saved when they are not trying to debate to hold up their religion.
I guess the same is true of Protestants who are unbelievers.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

@Blain ,

Onorato Diamonte has a good demonstration of him leading a Catholic to Christ. I just wasn't able to find it. However, he has a list on his YouTube channel that should be useful. He has a lot of responses to popular Catholic apologists that should help with leading nominal Catholics to the Savior.

> Catholicism and Salvation <

 

[ResidentAlien]

This is just something I am trying to debate and learn about with a Catholic on another site who believes firmly that our works are not only required but that they are what save us and more importantly keep us saved.

It's refreshing at least to find a Catholic who actually admits that this is what their religion teaches.

 

[GWH]

This is just something I am trying to debate and learn about with a Catholic on another site who believes firmly that our works are not only required but that they are what save us and more importantly keep us saved I respond with the firm belief that works are required yes but are the results evidence and fruits of a saved reborn new person changed believer and that it is grace and faith that save us and keep us saved not our works

The basis for my view is this Ephesians 2:8-9, which says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast"

However then comes the issue of sin and losing ones salvation they claim that sin can make us lose our salvation I claim our sins are paid for on the cross and that since salvation is a figt from God not of our own doing as taught in the verse above that sin has no power over us and while we do stumble and fall short into sin we are covered by the blood and love of Jesus Christ.

They then go on to say I claim we can sin as we please and not obey him because I say our sins are covered which is not what I am saying because no true born again believer would do this sin disgusts them and they strive to live righteously

I say however that one can forfeit their salvation by chasing the lusts of the flesh but this si not the same as losing ones salvation due to shortcomings because the new person in a changed heart always strives to live according to God's desires even though they fall short

However it is possible to stray as we all do from time to time. they counter this by saying that Jesus taught us that works save us and they claim this but do not give concrete scripture that says this they instead use scripture that teaches of obdeience and about the prodigal son and this is their basis for their understandding of it the person was saved became lost and was saved again therefore we can lose our salvation

Now to me the prodigal son did not lose his salvation because he fell short and his sin was so great he lost his salvation rather to me this appears to be a saved person forfeiting their salvation by chasing the lusrts of the flesh

But what do you all think? who is not being clear in this debate and who is right in this bedate? it is an on going one and I try to reason with this person but to no avail

What I just posted elsewhere is also appropriate here.

No one achieves moral perfection in this life (Phil. 3:12), but no one who lacks divine love will reap eternal life with God (Gal. 6:7-8). Thus, a person who claims to be godly but who is behaving in an ungodly (unloving, untruthful) manner may be in one of the following categories:

a. a normally loving person observed during a rare moment when he/she acted uncharacteristically (Phil. 3:12-16),

b. an immature Believer, who is making progress–you should have known him/her a year ago! (1Cor. 3:1-3, Eph. 4:11-15)

c. a truthseeker who has not yet learned the correct interpretation of God’s Word (1Cor. 6:9-11, Eph. 5:8-9),

d. a pseudo-Christian (Matt. 7:21, 1John 2:19), who may affirm morality while rejecting its divine rationale.

e. an apostate (1John 2:19, Heb. 6:4-6), who once believed but became blasphemous or foolish and ship-wrecked their faith
(1Tim. 1:19-20).

 

[JohnDB]

I just read through the parable in Luke 15. Where does it talk about rewards?

All I see the in the parable are about inheritance? "All that is mine is yours" said the father to his older son meaning the prodigal son who squandered all his inheritance won't get more.

And it doesn't say whether the older son remained angry. He is the obedient son who remained loyal to his father and faithfully worked for his father. If he is that loyal and obedient to his father, he likely stopped being angry and had forgiven his brother.

That parable is the third in a 4 part series of parables concerning sin....the angry, unforgiving brother committing the worst sin of unforgiveness that most do not repent of due to their anger.

The obedient but angry son would not come inside to the party....Jesus doesn't finish the tale by saying he eventually forgave his brother....no...the angry brother missed the reward of the party by being angry and unforgiving.
The angry brother is still upset at the shame the runaway brother brought upon the whole family by running away and spending/wasting all his share of the family money on wasteful luxurious living. (In Jewish culture what he did was extremely shameful to the whole family and wasted that money in front of the gentiles) This was something that was practically unforgivable in Jewish Culture. The father running was also shameful...only children run. Anything else is extremely shameful. But the father shamed himself by running to meet.his son.

The next parable is the shrewd manager who forgave debts.
And we look at how much debt they had left and ignore the forgiven amounts.
However....the forgiven amounts actually were equal in value....and sure, some owed practically nothing and others still large amounts. But everyone was forgiven an equal amount. Which is how he kept his job.

Like I said, this is a third in a four part allegories series to explain sin..

The runaway son? He gets a share again...he is a son and the shoes and ring are that he belongs and is given the checkbook again.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

This is just something I am trying to debate and learn about with a Catholic on another site who believes firmly that our works are not only required but that they are what save us and more importantly keep us saved I respond with the firm belief that works are required yes but are the results evidence and fruits of a saved reborn new person changed believer and that it is grace and faith that save us and keep us saved not our works

The basis for my view is this Ephesians 2:8-9, which says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast"

However then comes the issue of sin and losing ones salvation they claim that sin can make us lose our salvation I claim our sins are paid for on the cross and that since salvation is a figt from God not of our own doing as taught in the verse above that sin has no power over us and while we do stumble and fall short into sin we are covered by the blood and love of Jesus Christ.

They then go on to say I claim we can sin as we please and not obey him because I say our sins are covered which is not what I am saying because no true born again believer would do this sin disgusts them and they strive to live righteously

I say however that one can forfeit their salvation by chasing the lusts of the flesh but this si not the same as losing ones salvation due to shortcomings because the new person in a changed heart always strives to live according to God's desires even though they fall short

However it is possible to stray as we all do from time to time. they counter this by saying that Jesus taught us that works save us and they claim this but do not give concrete scripture that says this they instead use scripture that teaches of obdeience and about the prodigal son and this is their basis for their understandding of it the person was saved became lost and was saved again therefore we can lose our salvation

Now to me the prodigal son did not lose his salvation because he fell short and his sin was so great he lost his salvation rather to me this appears to be a saved person forfeiting their salvation by chasing the lusrts of the flesh

But what do you all think? who is not being clear in this debate and who is right in this bedate?

I think you are both being clear. Your POV seems solid to me, and your description of his arguments are in line with the arguments I have encountered in similar discussions.

it is an on going one and I try to reason with this person but to no avail

It is not likely that you will change his mind, but it is not impossible. Something you say may stike a cord. But even if it doesn't help him, your words may help someone else. Focusing on the kind of faith that leads to salvation is probably your best strategy.

 

[Burn1986]

This is just something I am trying to debate and learn about with a Catholic on another site who believes firmly that our works are not only required but that they are what save us and more importantly keep us saved I respond with the firm belief that works are required yes but are the results evidence and fruits of a saved reborn new person changed believer and that it is grace and faith that save us and keep us saved not our works

The basis for my view is this Ephesians 2:8-9, which says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast"

However then comes the issue of sin and losing ones salvation they claim that sin can make us lose our salvation I claim our sins are paid for on the cross and that since salvation is a figt from God not of our own doing as taught in the verse above that sin has no power over us and while we do stumble and fall short into sin we are covered by the blood and love of Jesus Christ.

They then go on to say I claim we can sin as we please and not obey him because I say our sins are covered which is not what I am saying because no true born again believer would do this sin disgusts them and they strive to live righteously

I say however that one can forfeit their salvation by chasing the lusts of the flesh but this si not the same as losing ones salvation due to shortcomings because the new person in a changed heart always strives to live according to God's desires even though they fall short

However it is possible to stray as we all do from time to time. they counter this by saying that Jesus taught us that works save us and they claim this but do not give concrete scripture that says this they instead use scripture that teaches of obdeience and about the prodigal son and this is their basis for their understandding of it the person was saved became lost and was saved again therefore we can lose our salvation

Now to me the prodigal son did not lose his salvation because he fell short and his sin was so great he lost his salvation rather to me this appears to be a saved person forfeiting their salvation by chasing the lusrts of the flesh

But what do you all think? who is not being clear in this debate and who is right in this bedate? it is an on going one and I try to reason with this person but to no avail

Why waste your breath? They will win an intellectual debate, because that’s the only realm they operate in. You can’t explain the Holy Spirit intellectually. Try to explain “word of wisdom, word of knowledge, tongues, interpretation of tongues, healing, gift of faith” etc?

 

[Follower777]

But what do you all think? who is not being clear in this debate and who is right in this bedate? it is an on going one and I try to reason with this person but to no avail

Our sins are forgiven, 'Yesterday, Today and tomorrow.' All of our sins are forgiven. And, we are no longer under law. You are right we are not saved by works, but by grace.

"Our sins are forgiven, 'Yesterday, Today and tomorrow." ==> Presumption = NOT Righteousness

" All of our sins are forgiven." again, "Presumption" .. Only the sins (disobedience) we ask forgiveness for & repent from are forgiven.
The Roman Church has a similar doctrine to "Once saved always saved" It's called "indulgences" ( what Martin Luther railed against.) Where you can pay a price or works and be forgiven by the pope, for future sins. No repentance or change of heart needed, just $$.

"we are no longer under law." .. Only in Christ and His Righteousness are we no longer under the law, and NO ONE is sinless, NOW or righteous, NOW. 1 John 2:4
"He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

"You are right we are not saved by works, but by grace" => CORRECT... & and our believing Jesus, by Faith will be evidenced by our works, our obedience, not as a means to salvation, but because we are saved. If we continue to sin, without regret or asking forgiveness .. the "Once saved always saved" mentality = presumption = eg. "back sliding" = not having the Righteousness of Christ, therefore NOT Saved.

Salvation IS CONDITIONAL on believing Jesus, by Faith, by Living life His Way, by Following & Believing His Truth, to be gifted His Life and inheriting His Kingdom. .. ONLY ( Read and believe the Lords Prayer, about obedience & repentance, Matt 6:9-13 ) "Forgive us "this day" (Not forgiving us for always) so that we may continue on in our sin, being deceived that we are Righteous, and able to inherit His Kingdom Come )

1. Faith and Works Must Coexist:

• James 2:17: "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
  Faith without works is dead, showing that genuine faith produces action.
• James 2:26: "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
  Just as a body without the spirit is lifeless, faith without works is equally ineffective.
• Galatians 5:6: "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."
  True faith is active and is expressed through love and good works, emphasizing the connection between faith and action.
• John 15:5: "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."

2. Ongoing Dependence on Christ:

• John 15:5: "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."
  This verse emphasizes the importance of abiding in Christ and relying on Him for spiritual fruitfulness.
• Philippians 4:13: "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."
  A reminder that true strength and ability come only through ongoing dependence on Christ.
• Colossians 2:6-7: "As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving."
  This passage speaks to the necessity of continuing in Christ, being rooted and built up in Him, and strengthening faith through dependence on Him.

3. The Danger of Presumption:

• Matthew 7:21: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
  This verse warns that mere verbal profession is not enough; one must also do the will of God.
• Luke 6:46: "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
  A warning against presumption, where calling Jesus "Lord" must be matched with obedient action.
• Romans 2:13: "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."
  This verse emphasizes that it is not enough to hear God's word; one must live it out to be justified before God.

These verses further support the biblical perspective that salvation is not a one-time event but a continuous process requiring both faith and works, ongoing reliance on Christ, and obedience to His will.

 

[homwardbound]

This is just something I am trying to debate and learn about with a Catholic on another site who believes firmly that our works are not only required but that they are what save us and more importantly keep us saved I respond with the firm belief that works are required yes but are the results evidence and fruits of a saved reborn new person changed believer and that it is grace and faith that save us and keep us saved not our works

The basis for my view is this Ephesians 2:8-9, which says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast"

However then comes the issue of sin and losing ones salvation they claim that sin can make us lose our salvation I claim our sins are paid for on the cross and that since salvation is a figt from God not of our own doing as taught in the verse above that sin has no power over us and while we do stumble and fall short into sin we are covered by the blood and love of Jesus Christ.

They then go on to say I claim we can sin as we please and not obey him because I say our sins are covered which is not what I am saying because no true born again believer would do this sin disgusts them and they strive to live righteously

I say however that one can forfeit their salvation by chasing the lusts of the flesh but this si not the same as losing ones salvation due to shortcomings because the new person in a changed heart always strives to live according to God's desires even though they fall short

However it is possible to stray as we all do from time to time. they counter this by saying that Jesus taught us that works save us and they claim this but do not give concrete scripture that says this they instead use scripture that teaches of obdeience and about the prodigal son and this is their basis for their understandding of it the person was saved became lost and was saved again therefore we can lose our salvation

Now to me the prodigal son did not lose his salvation because he fell short and his sin was so great he lost his salvation rather to me this appears to be a saved person forfeiting their salvation by chasing the lusrts of the flesh

But what do you all think? who is not being clear in this debate and who is right in this bedate? it is an on going one and I try to reason with this person but to no avail

Blain, I see the dog chasing his own tail
Flesh verses Spirit of God.
Galatians 3:3
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Galatians 4:29
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Galatians 6:8
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Therefore, we all know the above truth within us each. No matter how anyone decides. As person believes, so he is. (Proverbs 23:7) read it from verse 1
I see to not fight, argue or do anything but by Daddy's lead (Luke 21:14-15, Matthew 10:16-20). Not saying you not called to debate, saying to work this out in trust to Father, PaPa, Daddy, as I know you have learned to do and do, and always willing to learn new from any mistakes made in truth of God's love and mercy to everyone as presently led in care for all.
As this person claims, one must do to be in or else, no works, no faith, no new life given them.
As you state by Love from God given you, one, anyone gets saved by God not anyone else and Son is One with Father where true new life resides in the risen Son for you and everyone else too, thank you
I suggest, as you sit still, and stand in trust, Luke 21:14-15 will work though you, and you will be surprised in what comes though you.
I bet at Pentecost and even at Cornelius's house of Gentiles, Peter was shocked at what came through him and saw
He even went to the other disciples after seeing what God gave the Gentiles without any rituals.
Thanks Blain for being you in honesty

 

[Karlon]

This is just something I am trying to debate and learn about with a Catholic on another site who believes firmly that our works are not only required but that they are what save us and more importantly keep us saved I respond with the firm belief that works are required yes but are the results evidence and fruits of a saved reborn new person changed believer and that it is grace and faith that save us and keep us saved not our works

The basis for my view is this Ephesians 2:8-9, which says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast"

However then comes the issue of sin and losing ones salvation they claim that sin can make us lose our salvation I claim our sins are paid for on the cross and that since salvation is a figt from God not of our own doing as taught in the verse above that sin has no power over us and while we do stumble and fall short into sin we are covered by the blood and love of Jesus Christ.

They then go on to say I claim we can sin as we please and not obey him because I say our sins are covered which is not what I am saying because no true born again believer would do this sin disgusts them and they strive to live righteously

I say however that one can forfeit their salvation by chasing the lusts of the flesh but this si not the same as losing ones salvation due to shortcomings because the new person in a changed heart always strives to live according to God's desires even though they fall short

However it is possible to stray as we all do from time to time. they counter this by saying that Jesus taught us that works save us and they claim this but do not give concrete scripture that says this they instead use scripture that teaches of obdeience and about the prodigal son and this is their basis for their understandding of it the person was saved became lost and was saved again therefore we can lose our salvation

Now to me the prodigal son did not lose his salvation because he fell short and his sin was so great he lost his salvation rather to me this appears to be a saved person forfeiting their salvation by chasing the lusrts of the flesh

But what do you all think? who is not being clear in this debate and who is right in this bedate? it is an on going one and I try to reason with this person but to no avail

imo, do not consult a catholic on the subject of being saved. Ephesians 2: 8,9, & 10 says it all for all! "for ye are saved by grace thru faith & that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, AND NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN BOAST....."!!!! God's grace saves a born again Christian for all time, eternity! we are to do good works but they are NEVER required. James 1:22 thru 25 are appropriate to study. yes, Jesus died on the dross so that our sins are forgiven. this is what i tell catholics about being saved by works: "how many works do you have to do to get saved"? "when will you know you did enough good works"? "who's going to tell you you did enough works"? "what if you were in the hospital & the doctor said, "at best you have 1 week to live" then the priest comes by & says, "you have to do 180 more good works". "....sin has no power over us...." so true. Psalm 16: 8 & 9 "i have set the Lord always before me, He is at my right hand. i shall not be moved. therefore my heart is glad, my glory rejoiceth, my flesh shall also rest in hope". sinning as we please is a sign that someone is NOT born again! no born again Christian sins as he pleases. if he did, he's not born again! "forfeit their salvation"? forfeit means "to lose" or "to surrender". think of what you said. there's no such thing as a born again Christian losing salvation, never happened, will currently not happen & never will happen!!! yes, we are regenerated, made new, in thought, speech & actions. we will not want to sin, we will sin from time to time, but it's not going to be in the habit of wanting to sin. we can get frustrated about something, as in you are having a bad day, & swear, lie or whatever, but the H.S. will soon enough tell us, "stop that" or 'that's wrong". & we will listen correct & lesson from it & grow in grace of our Lord & savior, Jesus Christ. born again Christians never develop a habit of habitual sin, impossible! definitely, a b.a. Christian can backslide for awhile. remember that the catholic bible was written by men, NOT authored by God.

 

[Blain]

Thank you everyone for your responses sorry for replying so late my internet has been wacky.
So we finally decided to stop the discussion as it was going nowhere but this makes me wonder if all Catholics are this stubborn in their beliefs
one thing I noticed and even called them out on is that they use lots of scripture yes but they try to make it say something it isn't and no matter how I try to explain it they just cannot seem to grasp that it is is love and grace by which we are saved not by works but they are so fixated on works salvation that they cannot receieve what is being said they even make presumptious accusations of me saying that I am saying we can sin as we please or that I am saying works are not required and even claiming I belieev in osas which I do not

I used to but upon doing further learning and especially seeing how other Christians fall away for one reason or another I simply cannot see osas being true

 

[Jordon]

Thank you everyone for your responses sorry for replying so late my internet has been wacky.
So we finally decided to stop the discussion as it was going nowhere but this makes me wonder if all Catholics are this stubborn in their beliefs
one thing I noticed and even called them out on is that they use lots of scripture yes but they try to make it say something it isn't and no matter how I try to explain it they just cannot seem to grasp that it is is love and grace by which we are saved not by works but they are so fixated on works salvation that they cannot receieve what is being said they even make presumptious accusations of me saying that I am saying we can sin as we please or that I am saying works are not required and even claiming I belieev in osas which I do not

I used to but upon doing further learning and especially seeing how other Christians fall away for one reason or another I simply cannot see osas being true

Getting into discussions about losing your inheritance, you always should let the spirit lead You, as you just don't know whom your talking to, or what condition there in, it's a discussion best left in God's hands.

I would tell then to lay it in God's hands, as it's most certainly a question that is personal to the individual. ..,.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

That parable is the third in a 4 part series of parables concerning sin....the angry, unforgiving brother committing the worst sin of unforgiveness that most do not repent of due to their anger.

The obedient but angry son would not come inside to the party....Jesus doesn't finish the tale by saying he eventually forgave his brother....no...the angry brother missed the reward of the party by being angry and unforgiving.
The angry brother is still upset at the shame the runaway brother brought upon the whole family by running away and spending/wasting all his share of the family money on wasteful luxurious living. (In Jewish culture what he did was extremely shameful to the whole family and wasted that money in front of the gentiles) This was something that was practically unforgivable in Jewish Culture. The father running was also shameful...only children run. Anything else is extremely shameful. But the father shamed himself by running to meet.his son.

I'm not convinced of any of this. Why would you put the faithful and obedient older son in such a bad light. God actually commends people like him. He's like the faithful servant who made 10 more talents for his master.

The runaway son? He gets a share again...he is a son and the shoes and ring are that he belongs and is given the checkbook again.

It doesn't say that he's been given the checkbook again anywhere. All that wealth is actually the older son's inheritance. Since that is the older son's checkbook, the prodigal son would have to ask him for money to buy specific things every time. Or stop being a leech and get a decent job.

It's like you want to reward the prodigal son for his sin and bad decisions. And punish the faithful and obedient son for being angry as if his sin was unforgivable but prodigal son's were.

God is merciful to those who stray and come back, yes. But He rewards His faithful and obedient children even more.