So I am debating a Catholic on salvation and works....

[JohnDB]

Father told Older Son, all he has was still his as well, think on that one, take a bite God loves us all y'all
That is a truth from day one in the fall of Adam and Eve. We the people do the bad all by ourselves, not by God ever, thank you

But the unforgiving heart is what keeps you from enjoying the blessings of being a believer....

Your "work" is inconsequential towards your salvation. Justification is provided by Jesus. Sanctification (works) do nothing to gain salvation. Never have or will. You do them because you are a part of the family....just like the prodigal son would now that he has returned.

 

[Blain]

Hmmm. Seems like your conclusion that OSAS is wrong based on your observation that people fall away forces you into agreement with the Catholic doctrine that you are adamately opposing. What distinction are you making?

Well I used to believe in osas but after seeing so many believers fall away as I have and after doing more research on the subject I have come to the conclusion that osas is simply not true the only way it could be true is to say that those who fell alway were never saved to begin with and this is not a judgement we are able to make for only God knows their hearts

Of course I am always willing to be proven wrong

 

[Blain]

Brother do you k pe how I’m always saying we need to really listen to Jesus teachings concerning his kingdom ?


“However then comes the issue of sin and losing ones salvation they claim that sin can make us lose our salvation I claim our sins are paid for on the cross and that since salvation is a figt from God not of our own doing as taught in the verse above that sin has no power ( dominion ) over us and while we do stumble and fall short into sin we are covered by the blood and love of Jesus Christ.”

Consider this parable taught by our lord who shed his blood to atone for our sins concerning forgivness in his kingdom.

“Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?” Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy times seven times.

“Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. ( we all have to be judged by our works and all will fall short not able to pay)

. “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ ( he’s repenting realizing he can’t pay his own debt )

The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. ( the king forgives all his unpaid debt because he has mercy on him )

But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins. He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded. “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’ “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt.

When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened. “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’

In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:21-

what was it that doomed the man brother ? He was initially forgiven completely but was it his own little mistakes he made that doomed him ? His own debt ? Or was it something else that he did or failed to do that brought the wrath of the king upon his head ?

“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you are a wonderful brother in the lord blainer , this is just for your consideration

Jesus taught these things to those who did believe in him and came to hear him

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

our works will definately fall short on thoer own but “mercy will triumph over judgement “ is something Jesus and his apostles taught can save us not only his mercy tonus individually but extended also from us or “ through” us …. to other folks who need it when they sin against us

Yes this is a perfect parable in my opinion it is clear detailed and full of truth and thank you for your kind words my friend it is appreciated

 

[Pilgrimshope]

But the unforgiving heart is what keeps you from enjoying the blessings of being a believer....

Your "work" is inconsequential towards your salvation. Justification is provided by Jesus. Sanctification (works) do nothing to gain salvation. Never have or will. You do them because you are a part of the family....just like the prodigal son would now that he has returned.

“Your "work" is inconsequential towards your salvation. “

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:21-22‬ ‭

 

[JohnDB]

Well I used to believe in osas but after seeing so many believers fall away as I have and after doing more research on the subject I have come to the conclusion that osas is simply not true the only way it could be true is to say that those who fell alway were never saved to begin with and this is not a judgement we are able to make for only God knows their hearts

Of course I am always willing to be proven wrong

You are correct...

I think that the story of Sampson should be a guide....
When he lost all identity with the Israelites and God....he was out.

But God has a way of getting you back even kicking and screaming if need be. Blind, weak and hairless was a nothing in comparison.

God loves his kids....and knows the future all too well....better than most people know the past.

 

[JohnDB]

“Your "work" is inconsequential towards your salvation. “

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:21-22‬ ‭

So exactly how does being "unforgiving" which indicates a lack of love configure into the unforgiving brother's obtaining his portion?

 

[Blain]

You are correct...

I think that the story of Sampson should be a guide....
When he lost all identity with the Israelites and God....he was out.

But God has a way of getting you back even kicking and screaming if need be. Blind, weak and hairless was a nothing in comparison.

God loves his kids....and knows the future all too well....better than most people know the past.

Yeah that is a good example I didn't even think of that. I certainly know how he brings us back even if by kicking and screaming I call myself his stubborn child as I always have to learn the hard way but once I learn it sticks

 

[Pilgrimshope]

So exactly how does being "unforgiving" which indicates a lack of love configure into the unforgiving brother's obtaining his portion?

I was just showing blain something Jesus taught because he’s a believer and Jesus teachings have impact on him . I wasn’t trying to argue with you and don’t really have interest in that

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You are correct...

I think that the story of Sampson should be a guide....
When he lost all identity with the Israelites and God....he was out.

But God has a way of getting you back even kicking and screaming if need be. Blind, weak and hairless was a nothing in comparison.

God loves his kids....and knows the future all too well....better than most people know the past.

Samson is a wonderful example some of those ot stories are great lessons

 

[Pilgrimshope]

So exactly how does being "unforgiving" which indicates a lack of love configure into the unforgiving brother's obtaining his portion?

Naw the point is there that it says “work out your own salvation because god is working in you “

It was just to highlight that our work isn’t inconsequential but matters because god is working to change our Will and actions. The parable about forgivness was meant to show blain something my response to you was that we’re called to action because we believe and so this then becomes acceptable and the parable about forgiving others comes in

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Like in the parable god is going to reckon every word and deed to every soul . But the gospel is hom oaying our debt . At that point forgivness of others becomes very important to our own souls like the man in the parable when he faced the judge after being forgiven bit failing to forgive the other man

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

The unforgiving son though is out due to his unforgiving nature.
The forgiven son is in.

But while he was outside the family he was always at risk....

It's an allusion....symbolic. the unforgiving is the worst sin. Over and above the ignorance, negligence and planned sins.
But forgiving the most of what you are capable of is required. It may not be the same capacity as God is able to forgive sins....but it is sufficient to allow you to gain access into heaven.

So exactly how does being "unforgiving" which indicates a lack of love configure into the unforgiving brother's obtaining his portion?

Where in the parable does it say the older son never forgives his younger brother? It doesn't. Since he is the faithful and obedient son, the parable implies he will do what his father says and forgive his brother.

Even the father tells the older son that he knows and appreciates the older son's faithfulness and obedience by saying, "Son, you are always with me..." That means the father forgives him too - he knows that his older son will come around and forgive his brother. The older brother doesn't get thrown out and his inheritance won't be taken away from him and remains fully intact.

God encourages faithfulness and obedience in His children and they always get greater rewards than the ones that are less devoted.

Colossians 3:23-24 Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.

Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done."

James 1:12 Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

It sounds like you want to be able to stray and expect God to keep showering you with good stuff, but deny them to His more faithful and obedient children. It just doesn't work that way.

 

[Jordon]

“Your "work" is inconsequential towards your salvation. “

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:21-22‬ ‭

I agree

 

[Magenta]

Well I used to believe in osas but after seeing so many believers fall away as I have and after doing more research on the subject I have come to the conclusion that osas is simply not true the only way it could be true is to say that those who fell alway were never saved to begin with and this is not a judgement we are able to make for only God knows their hearts

Of course I am always willing to be proven wrong

God has already judged the hearts of those who leave, telling us they never belonged in the first place.

1 John 2 v 19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

 

[Blain]

God has already judged the hearts of those who leave, telling us they never belonged in the first place.

1 John 2 v 19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

I never considered that verse. So do you think that if they indeed fell away it was because they were never in Christ to begin with?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I agree

always better than a disagreement

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?”

i think sometimes we try to apply this to Moses words. But as we look just before this he’s teaching things like this …..

“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:35-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

of course Jesus taught many things in his sermons but one of the consistent things is mercy to receive Gods and to offer it in various forms to others in his name

 

[Blain]

always better than a disagreement

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?”

i think sometimes we try to apply this to Moses words. But as we look just before this he’s teaching things like this …..

“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:35-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

of course Jesus taught many things in his sermons but one of the consistent things is mercy to receive Gods and to offer it in various forms to others in his name

Mercy is one of the spiritual gifts after all and that is actually one I excel in
Of course I have never been able to stay angry at anyone for more than a day trust me I have tried but this also leads to people walking all over me I am very forgiving and very merciful and this is seen as a weakness in the eyes of others.

 

[Jordon]

always better than a disagreement

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?”

i think sometimes we try to apply this to Moses words. But as we look just before this he’s teaching things like this …..

“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:35-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

of course Jesus taught many things in his sermons but one of the consistent things is mercy to receive Gods and to offer it in various forms to others in his name

I agree all of these things can be done

Only with his will attached to it.

I cant see any natural man doing this alone.

I see will, in all the messages here, I see will attached to who the message is being relayed

And I see with in that will is confirmation to do the right thing, but not only do I see confirmation, I see within that will a sufficient amount of will that either the person will pass the test with or he won't,

As within that will, there will be also something that feels right to the person something the person remembers, something the person longs for,.something the person has been fighting and unable to workout in his natural fallen condition

Today you can rule over sin said the Father, and today I did.

Tomorrow the lord says today you can rule over sin. This day I don't.

The father sorry son your not ready to be handed over to the son,.you failed with my will.

Sorry but I can't just have anyone recieving the gifts who will miss use my oracle.

The oracle was spoken of in Jeremiah, the lord said see that you don't miss use my oracle.

The oracle

A message that comes from the lord that is placed on the heart that was sent to men of the old t

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Mercy is one of the spiritual gifts after all and that is actually one I excel in
Of course I have never been able to stay angry at anyone for more than a day trust me I have tried but this also leads to people walking all over me I am very forgiving and very merciful and this is seen as a weakness in the eyes of others.

Amen brother you have a great spirit in the lord and exhibit mercy often in your posts and interactions . And remember what Jesus said bout when you are cursed and offended and put down for his sake and the gospel rejoice for thy reward is great …. And look how Jesus was treated

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I agree all of these things can be done

Only with his will attached to it.

I cant see any natural man doing this alone.

I see will, in all the messages here, I see will attached to who the message is being relayed

And I see with in that will is confirmation to do the right thing, but not only do I see confirmation, I see within that will a sufficient amount of will that either the person will pass the test with or he won't,

As within that will, there will be also something that feels right to the person something the person remembers, something the person longs for,.something the person has been fighting and unable to workout in his natural fallen condition

Today you can rule over sin said the Father, and today I did.

Tomorrow the lord says today you can rule over sin. This day I don't.

The father sorry son your not ready to be handed over to the son,.you failed with my will.

Sorry but I can't just have anyone recieving the gifts who will miss use my oracle.

The oracle was spoken of in Jeremiah, the lord said see that you don't miss use my oracle.

The oracle

A message that comes from the lord that is placed on the heart that was sent to men of the old t

Yes …. His Will is well expressed to all mankind in the gospel , so we can hear believe and follow him . Until a “ natural “ man hears the gospel he wouldn’t be able to do any of it but when a person hears the gospel then they can either believe it or reject it . If they accept it then they’ll be “ born again “ of the spirit . But they too like every human is born naturally and needs to be born again by receiving the gospel , willingly

 

[Blain]

Amen brother you have a great spirit in the lord and exhibit mercy often in your posts and interactions . And remember what Jesus said bout when you are cursed and offended and put down for his sake and the gospel rejoice for thy reward is great …. And look how Jesus was treated

Yes this is very true Jesus even said people would hate us for his sake and I have certainly seen this to be true I remember when there was this user that was on here who is banned now and he would always come after me claiming I was cursed with evil spirits or saying that the reason my life is in shambles is because of my sin he even went so far as to make a video of him saying all this to me