So if you are not under the Law, does that mean you are in lawelessness?

[atwhatcost]

GRACE.......... unless you believe Grace to be lawlessness.........?

​Subtle! I like subtle. lol

 

[atwhatcost]

Awesome Christian posts to this question. Which was not a real question from Jason, but more of a mocking question to the true Christians who understand grace.

Jason, your heart is so hardened, what happened to you in your life. I have read so many of your posts, and it is clear that you have chosen the path under the law. Did something real evil happen to you, or were you brought up in a mind controlling cult.

I am in Christ and he is in me. I have no desire to do any of the evil things you listed, not because i am forced not to do them, but because i have no desire to do them because of the unconditional love God has for me in knowing i am already forgiven.

If we agree there is no way any of us can ever measure up or are worthy of God's love and forgiveness as it is written, then how would it be possible to be judged by God on our works. This doesn't make sense. No amount of goodness, no amount of works following the law would ever allow us passage into heaven.

Understanding the freedom from being judged for your sins when you are in Christ, makes you want to do amazing good things on your own free will, and i believe this is the understanding God truly wants us to experience through the spirit of the word.

I will pray that the lord opens your heart to the spirit of grace and closes your mind to the flesh of the law, Jason.

God bless

I get Jason. Deep down, I am Jason. It really would be easier if I could just memorize the whole law and do that just like a ledger in a bookkeeping book. Black and white. Plain and simple. Do this and earn your brownie points.

Isn't that much easier than following Christ?

The only down side (although it's really an up side) is it's not a ledger page in a bookkeeping book. It's not just don't kill, it's don't even think about killing, don't even get angry over some misbegotten nonsense. Don't even call your brother a fool. Don't even think, "That brother is a fool."

I can do don't kill. I'm a coward. I'm weak. That's not impossible. But I have four brothers! I can't even not think sometimes, any given one is a fool. If you have siblings, you know this. lol

So, it stops being a do-these-rules kind of thing and then we have to trust Jesus to work him (who is the law) in our hearts, or...

we become Jason, determined to black and white the issue into don't kill without any room left for that dark thought about a particularly annoying brother.

Sooner or later, one of two things happens. Either God finally gets through that even when we annoy him to no end, he still can't think evil thoughts about us, (not even one tiny image of punching me in the nose, even if he doesn't act on it, and let's face it, he's imagining punching a teddy bear in the nose, if he's envisioning me at all, so it's fairly easy to imagine that lol), and therefore he gives up even trying and let's God work on him, or... he doesn't.

Personally, I'm rooting for the moment he realizes even getting mad at us is breaking that one particular law he thinks he's very cool with not doing.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

If God does break thru , It will be the Revelation of His unmerited Goodness upon Jason, apart from his abilities, his merits, his coming to christ on his own free will, and making a recomittment, at som later date, etc.. It will be the Revelation of God's Goodness in His life, that will bring repentance unto Salvation, God is ABLE to take the staunchest of 'pharisees', zealots, scribes, those hardened, He is able to take and Save them! and if He does, its because God has Called them Unto His Salvation, not theirs. a Prime Example, was Saul of Tarsus, and it took a physical blinding to Get Sauls attention, God used that method to Bring Saul who became Paul back to Him, chosen in Him before the Foundation of the World.. a chosen vessel.. a Pharisee about all pharisee's GOD WAS ABLE.. indeed! Paul later revealed he obtained salvation thru his ignorance , he who was a blasphemer, a persecutor, he who had Christian's murdered, because he thought he was doing God a Service... but Paul did it in ignorance. He taught that.. indeed

 

[atwhatcost]

I do not think I am sinless. I have sinned in the past. But I do not sin as a way of life.

Sure you do. You sin quite often. Every time you cut God's law to "I don't murder, therefore I'm not a sinner," you sin. Just because you don't yet see that, doesn't mean you don't sin as a way of life. This is about all you do, on here anyway.

I also believe it is possible to cease from sin because I have done it.

Yes, and my brothers are never, ever fools in my mind.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

​Subtle! I like subtle. lol

Grace is limited. By God. I listed what he gave for Peter to write. SOme things we must do to the best of our ability. The Holy Spirit is in us to accomplish that.

Romans 6:1-14 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[SUP]2 [/SUP] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For he that is dead is freed from sin.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Making grace the all-in-all that allows a person to persist in sins that God says STOP makes grace cheap, not needing the blood of Jesus to be shed.

 

[Joshua_Generation]

Grace is limited. By God. I listed what he gave for Peter to write. SOme things we must do to the best of our ability. The Holy Spirit is in us to accomplish that.

Romans 6:1-14 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[SUP]2 [/SUP] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For he that is dead is freed from sin.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Making grace the all-in-all that allows a person to persist in sins that God says STOP makes grace cheap, not needing the blood of Jesus to be shed.

When did Peter write Romans? or did you mean Paul?

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Un belief is SIN.. those who go about trying to achieve their Own Righteousness.. outside the Righteousness of Christ, which is by faith in Christ, are in un belief, even those who claim christ yet attach the Law to their work to be justified. that is Un belief.. we believe in christ, yet want to be justified thru works of righteousness as it Pertains to God's Laws, that is belief for the Carnal man, but UN BELIEF and sin according to the Righteousness of God , which is Faith in Christ and His apppeasement for Sin.. indeed!

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Un belief is SIN.. those who go about trying to achieve their Own Righteousness.. outside the Righteousness of Christ, which is by faith in Christ, are in un belief, even those who claim christ yet attach the Law to their work to be justified. that is Un belief.. we believe in christ, yet want to be justified thru works of righteousness as it Pertains to God's Laws, that is belief for the Carnal man, but UN BELIEF and sin according to the Righteousness of God , which is Faith in Christ and His apppeasement for Sin.. indeed!

And when He is come, He will reprove the World of Sin, and of Righteousness, and of Judgment:

Of sin, because they believe not on Me; John 16

Jesus is speaking of the Spirit of Truth, It was Necessary that He go to the Father so the Holy Ghost could be sent ,the Paraclete, His Promise, that He would not abandon them. indeed...

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Apologize for the double post.. yikes..

 

[Blain]

Apologize for the double post.. yikes..

spammer! lol ;b

 

[atwhatcost]

If God does break thru , It will be the Revelation of His unmerited Goodness upon Jason, apart from his abilities, his merits, his coming to christ on his own free will, and making a recomittment, at som later date, etc.. It will be the Revelation of God's Goodness in His life, that will bring repentance unto Salvation, God is ABLE to take the staunchest of 'pharisees', zealots, scribes, those hardened, He is able to take and Save them! and if He does, its because God has Called them Unto His Salvation, not theirs. a Prime Example, was Saul of Tarsus, and it took a physical blinding to Get Sauls attention, God used that method to Bring Saul who became Paul back to Him, chosen in Him before the Foundation of the World.. a chosen vessel.. a Pharisee about all pharisee's GOD WAS ABLE.. indeed! Paul later revealed he obtained salvation thru his ignorance , he who was a blasphemer, a persecutor, he who had Christian's murdered, because he thought he was doing God a Service... but Paul did it in ignorance. He taught that.. indeed

I agree with all but the free will part. Saul/Paul is a perfectly good example of "not free will." lol

 

[atwhatcost]

Grace is limited. By God. I listed what he gave for Peter to write. SOme things we must do to the best of our ability. The Holy Spirit is in us to accomplish that.

Romans 6:1-14 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[SUP]2 [/SUP] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For he that is dead is freed from sin.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Making grace the all-in-all that allows a person to persist in sins that God says STOP makes grace cheap, not needing the blood of Jesus to be shed.

You're going to have to get used to my wit (or not. lol) That was me laughing along with the unabashed not-subtleness of a good comment.

aka Amen to Grace!

 

[Bowhunter2394]

The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a Broken Heart; and Saveth such as be of a Contrite spirit. Psalms
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

whether its a broken heart over your sin, or brokeness that comes from realizing How short you fall on a daily bases as you walk in Him, God is NIGH unto those, He truly is, Holy Ghost Gospel Power is found in Broken vessels, not prideful puffed up individuals.. nooooo.. and the Way God breaks those hard Hearts is to set them before the Tree where they murdered His Son.. and show the that it was nothing by their merits that they Obtained salvation, but it was found in Him as He was Gracious and Loving to 'Save ' them.. a Broken soft heart is a Heart that can Recieve His Word as He plants it there.. hard hearts, the seed just falls away when persecution or distress or affliction arises because of Christ... God has His Ways of getting those Hearts soft and malliable, its thru the REVELATION of His Unmerited goodness in that persons life.. a revelation of Mercy, Truth and Love that will have the hardest heart, weeping and sorry for their blindness and giving it all to Him.. when that Happens, the Angels of God Truly Do Rejoice!

 

[pwrnJC]

It means that I am not Jewish, or Semitic, or Hebrew, or Palestinian, Isrealie, an Isrealite or a Nazarite! I hope I got it all grouped together and not leaving anyone out.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

So let's credit John for that wonderful teaching in 1 John. Christians, especially Gentiles in Christ, should relate to John's references to words of Jesus.

1 John 2:7-11 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

That is far superior to the stark verse chiseled in stone, under the old covenant. The whole chapter ought to be read now to bring his OP into full view, that is STOP SINNING. 1 John 2:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

But if and when you do sin, there's a way to fix that. Jesus taught to repent. Repent means to find out that what you are doing that separates you from God must simply be stopped. If repenting, then Jesus our Advocate (Supreme Defense Attorney appointed by none other than Father God) stands for us before the Father, citing our turning away from that sin (repentance) unto his righteousness, thereby requiring forgiveness of yet another sin POST CALVARY, by reason of JESUS BLOOD.

But if a sinner chooses rather to prefer a worldly D.A. (Humanism, claimed genetic predisposition, ignorance of morality, mental illness due to a life of sin, etc.), the sin case will have to be worthy of even a hearing based upon something greater than Jesus' blood. That's a case where I believe "luck" is a valid though hopeless thought stacked against an habitual sinner.

So it is that under the Old Covenant and under the New Covenant, a sinner is not awarded a blank spiritual check to fill in covering whatever he or she does day to day. Sin remained of primary concern to God, and ought to be so with His children.

If that sounds unlike your doctrine, then I'll ask what you think of Peter's inspired word in 2 Peter 1:2-11 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Peter was hand selected by Jesus, so ya better listen to him. Jesus is indeed well able to keep you from falling, but if you sleep in while he and some disciples get up and follow him early morning, you are not with him that day. It matters not that you might pull the blanket over your head and say "Lord, I'll follow later.". How ya gonna figure out where he went?

James 2:19 (KJV) [SUP]19 [/SUP] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

So if you are OSAS, how are you different from the devils? How do you KNOW? Will those devils not notice living in unrepented, unforgiven sins? Do you realize they will be at your trial before the Lord one day, eye witnesses, accusing you of deliberate, habitual sins like theirs? Will Jesus' blood cover those? If so, how could that deal with repeated sin after knowing it is sin, while John will be there too testifying to the Word commanding NOT to SIN?

How many unconfessed sins will be on your account that wasn't entirely washed clean? How else can Jesus represent you unto an acquittal?

I believe in eternal security but not unconditional eternal security and if I tried to explain why I feel this way it would confuse people.
There are good scriptures on both sides proving their points.

 

[Grandpa]

Originally Posted by Jason0047Yes, God is love. But his love does not extend to a person in them openly rebelling against Him. If God were to allow that to happen, then the Lord would not be holy because He would be allowing His people to get away with evil. I mean, honestly. This is not a hard concept to grasp. You do evil and you are evil. If you do righteousness, then you are righteous. You shouldn't have to be told that. But the Bible says it, leaving anyone who is trying to justify a sin and still saved doctrine without any excuse. For God will not tolerate any kind of Lawlessness.

Oh I get it. God loved us when we were sinners in sending His Son but now that we are His Children His love becomes conditional.
Perhaps a Roman Review will help here...

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

I was thinking the same thing.

If God doesn't extend His Love to those who are openly rebelling before Him then He doesn't extend His Love at all.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

When did Peter write Romans? or did you mean Paul?

I posted Peter's pertinent scriptures earlier, then Paul's. All the apostles were in agreement, not teaching a gospel of unlimited grace such that holy God will have to hold his nose over millions entering his precious home stinking of sin. He will not apologize to Sodom or Gomorrah. Any doctrine of grace even hinting at such a situation for God is enough to shorten that preacher's mortal life.

 

[kennethcadwell]

As a point of clarity, only...Matt. 5:17, says Think not that I come to destroy the law, or the Prophets[ some say Prophets words], I am not come to destroy, but TO FULFILL. Love alone has no power. Without Christ in it to give it power, in relationship to fulfilling the law.

In your point on needing only to love something ..I.must differ in my opinion. Without the direct influence of Christ's work as the premise, the love in faith would have no victory for us. Again, payment for the cost of sin must be paid. We are not to conclude that He is God and can do anything He wants, hence, the law is fulfilled thru our acts..because of that power alone..In this case the act of loving something... It is that He has seen the requirements of righteousness, and He has chosen to remedy the need to pay the debt owed of sins penalty thru a sacrifice of His Son.This is the battle-ends choice He has chosen to remedy our condition. We are that bad ...not to be able to do it on our own against the slavery of Satan"s rule......fixing us was not an option...as God assesses He concludes a plan..with Lucifer He assessed that one day He found rebellion in Him. In us He assessed We were found dead in our transgressions and sins.

So, To at all take off the focus of the Son is gravely in error., for this is His answer. And no other.. Romans 13, and 3 mention the things you spoke of but as a result of that fulfillment in us to act it out in our walk...But is not concluding there that the point of the original premise of it's fulfillment. That is as scripture says is found in Christ, and Christ only. Other wise we are back to what we as humans merit to God, Law. And we have been thru that loop already to know apart from Christ we can do nothing!

Where did I say take our focus off of Jesus Christ ???

What I said was His love through us, which is the same as His Holy Spirit working in and through us to better our walk in the faith. One can not continue to keep habitually sinning if they are truly in Christ because as Apostle Paul says love does no wrong/harm to others.
If you are walking in the Spirit in the faith of Jesus Christ then there is no condemnation, but if you are still walking in the flesh (carnal minded/sinful nature) then you are still held under the law. Apostle Paul makes it clear that a person can not continue to be carnally minded and have salvation both, for he says carnally minded is death but spiritual minded is eternal life.

The fulfillment comes by love as our faith hangs on love, and Apostle John makes this clear in his epistle in chapters 2-4 as he says those who do not have love do not know God. John also said you can not love God and hate others both, as His love working through us will not lead one to hatred of others.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

You're going to have to get used to my wit (or not. lol) That was me laughing along with the unabashed not-subtleness of a good comment.

aka Amen to Grace!

I prefer to peach upon the shoulders of fellow saints, not standing upon the necks of sinners.

Grace! How wonderful God's plan. He made it possible to be filled with the Holy Spirit, to thereby overcome sin and enjoy the destruction of the Devil's works in each generation, by Christ in them.

 

[3Scoreand10]

I do not think I am sinless. I have sinned in the past. But I do not sin as a way of life. I also believe it is possible to cease from sin because I have done it. I know what it is like to not be a slave to sin. Now, does that mean I will forever be perfect? Only the Lord knows. But Galatians 5:24 says those that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. 1 Peter 4:1 says those who have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin. Peter talks about how the false prophets are those who cannot cease from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 14). So you tell me? Is Scripture lying or do you not want Scripture to be true? Are you seeking another interpretation on those verses that goes beyond the plain written meaning to justify a false theology?

Also, many have tried to explain how wrong I am does not mean a spit of beans. In fact, what they believe is the majority church view. But Jesus said it is not the wide gate but the narrow gate that leads unto life. Oh, and no. They did not show me Scripture in it's context. They will ignore the context every time and they will twist the many warning passages to the Believer in the Bible, too.

As for pride and arrogrance: Well, a believer that holds to a sin and still be saved doctrine can't steal something that is from the camp of moralty when they really do not stand for morality or God's goodness. That would be cheating. Morals cannot be used for somebody that does not really support true morality.

Well I see Jason is back with his lies.