O
Officermayo
Guest
Please see my earlier comments on this subject to understand my meaning in the above post.
So what about the fourth commandment?
- Thread starter disciplemike
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Please see my earlier comments on this subject to understand my meaning in the above post.
F
FreeNChrist
Guest
How do you reconcile that with Romans 7:7?
"What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet."”
Afterward Yeshua findeth him in the temple, and said unto him,
Behold, thou art made whole:
sin no more,
lest a worse thing come unto thee.
John 5:14 (KJV, MBM)
Behold, thou art made whole:
sin no more,
lest a worse thing come unto thee.
John 5:14 (KJV, MBM)
Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.
If you law-keepers are not sacrificing animals in Jerusalem then you are breaking the law. James says if you break one law - you are guilty of it all.
(In fact you guys continually break the Law in many ways and yet try to seduce others to "do the Law" )
It looks like according to Moses you guys are blotted out of the book.
Romans 10:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.
If you law-keepers are not sacrificing animals in Jerusalem then you are breaking the law. James says if you break one law - you are guilty of it all.
(In fact you guys continually break the Law in many ways and yet try to seduce others to "do the Law" )
It looks like according to Moses you guys are blotted out of the book.
Romans 10:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.
Or it could be partial evidence of later dating and a different source.
There are 4 different times the Sabbath seems to be instituted in the Torah. One time it's connected with the provision of manna (as you point out), another it's said to be because of the Exodus from Egypt (Deut 5), another it's said to be because of God's activity during creation (Exodus 20), and another time it's given no particular explanation other than it being applicable during planting and harvest (Exodus 34). In any case, it seems to be instituted on 4 occasions. I wouldn't automatically take the institution of the Sabbath in Ex 16 as indicative of the Sabbath being instituted prior to Sinai, at least before considering the possibility that something like Ex 16 being written by a different source from Ex 20, 34, and Deut 5.
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O
Officermayo
Guest
The first time God tells the people to observe it is during the manna delivery in Exodus chapter 16.
I believe I have already explained the way I see it...but here goes.
In the absence of scripture I assume you mean Jas 2v10....but again you might mean 'all the laws God ever gave ?
As I see it...Jesus has abolished the enmity, the commandments contained in ordinances Eph 2v10, meaning all the 'works or law of Moses' which is 'apart from the 10 Commandments which are spiritual and GOD-given'. Therefore in the NT the 'whole law are the 10 Commandments for us to do.
Why would James refer to keeping/continue to do the OT law that had served it's purpose ? The seed had been planted, the roots established and were producing new growth in the new Christian (at least that is what should have happened...except the devil also planted his seed at the same time). So really we are only talking about the Commandments which are spiritual and eternal.
Did Jesus fulfil the law ? Yes !
Did Jesus destroy the law ? No !
We need to look at something here best explained in a 'natural process'.
The OT law can be seen as the roots/seed of a plant....in it is contained the 'whole' plant. Part of it remains in the ground and part of it grows above the ground = OT - NT, both essential for as long as the plant is to last. You can 'cut off' the plant/flower above the ground and it will only last for a short time, but if you 'care for the root it will produce again. Rom 11 (v18). Even though not seen but neither is it dead or destroyed.
The devil gets you to believe you can be 'cut off from the root and still bloom/last for ever !
Are you not sacrificing the way the bible now says to do in the temple of God?
Have you not heard of 1 Corinthians 3:16 (KJV)
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Romans 12:1 (KJV)
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies
a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
1 Peter 2:5 (KJV)
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood,
to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
are you guilty of not sacrificing an offering to God?
Moreover also I gave them My Sabbaths,
to be a sign between me and them,
that they might know that I [am] YHVH that sanctify them.
Ezekiel 20:12 (KJV, MBM)
to be a sign between me and them,
that they might know that I [am] YHVH that sanctify them.
Ezekiel 20:12 (KJV, MBM)
W
wvbeliever
Guest
The 10 commandments was a covenant between Moses and his generation and God after they came out of Egypt starting in Chapter 5 Deuteronomy 5:2-3 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. Moses speaks here that the Ten Commandments was for them of that time that was lead out of Egypt. But I encourage everyone to read the whole chapter though. Now going to Hebrews 9 verses 1-5.
Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.[SUP] [/SUP]For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.[SUP] [/SUP]And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
Verse 4 "tables of the covenant" That was the 10 commandments . To show this true lets go back to Deuteronomy Chapter 9 this addresses that that are the same "tables" are the ones in Hebrews 9:4 flip to Deuteronomy 9:9 When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the "tables of the covenant" which the Lord made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water: and Deuteronomy 9:11 And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the Lord gave me the two tables of stone, even the "tables of the covenant." Showing in both the new and old testament the 10 commandments are "the tables of the covenant." And the Ten Commandments was between Moses and His generation I encourage you to read all of those chapters in full. Now Jeremiah and Hebrews proves once again the Ten Commandments was for Moses and his generation.
Jeremiah 31:31-32 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
Hebrews 8:8-9 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Am I saying to forsake the OT no II Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: All scripture is educational and valuable but it also has its place and time as well. The purpose of the Old Testament was never intended by God to be the universal law for all people for all of time. We are to love God and love our neighbors the golden two. If we obey those two commands faithfully we will be upholding all that God requires of us. That is all we can do. Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. I Corinthians Chapter 13:1-3 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.[SUP] [/SUP]And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. If you don't have not love you are nothing and if someone doesn't know love they don't know God. I John 4:8 [SUP] [/SUP]He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. Do everything because you love Lord Jesus.
He has been there and done that and conquered all of that too!
Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.[SUP] [/SUP]For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.[SUP] [/SUP]And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
Verse 4 "tables of the covenant" That was the 10 commandments . To show this true lets go back to Deuteronomy Chapter 9 this addresses that that are the same "tables" are the ones in Hebrews 9:4 flip to Deuteronomy 9:9 When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the "tables of the covenant" which the Lord made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water: and Deuteronomy 9:11 And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the Lord gave me the two tables of stone, even the "tables of the covenant." Showing in both the new and old testament the 10 commandments are "the tables of the covenant." And the Ten Commandments was between Moses and His generation I encourage you to read all of those chapters in full. Now Jeremiah and Hebrews proves once again the Ten Commandments was for Moses and his generation.
Jeremiah 31:31-32 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
Hebrews 8:8-9 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Am I saying to forsake the OT no II Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: All scripture is educational and valuable but it also has its place and time as well. The purpose of the Old Testament was never intended by God to be the universal law for all people for all of time. We are to love God and love our neighbors the golden two. If we obey those two commands faithfully we will be upholding all that God requires of us. That is all we can do. Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. I Corinthians Chapter 13:1-3 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.[SUP] [/SUP]And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. If you don't have not love you are nothing and if someone doesn't know love they don't know God. I John 4:8 [SUP] [/SUP]He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. Do everything because you love Lord Jesus.
He has been there and done that and conquered all of that too!
THAT is one of the verses that opened my eyes.
Do you realize when Sha-ul wrote that epistle to young Timothy, none of the "New Testament" was written yet.
Listen to what he is saying. He is talking about the "Old Testament". This after the resurrection of the Messiah.
Listen, listen, listen.
The "Old Testament" is profitable!
... for doctrine [proverbs 4.2 "for I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my Torah]
... for reproof [proof, conviction found in Scripture]
... for correction [yes, unfortunately, "believers" need correction at times]
... for instruction in righteousness [we can't just say my righteousness is Messiah's]
that the man of God may be perfect, [now there is a goal!]
throughly furnished unto all good works! [The Old Testament is NEEDED, it furnishes us with info we NEED]
O
Officermayo
Guest
How can any Christian not be able to abide by the 10 Commandments? I can see your argument for not being able to follow the 613 Laws, but it should be pretty easy for any Christian to not have other Gods, murder, steal, ect.
Now it's true that most Christians in modern times would have a hard time following the 4th Commandment as that would mean forsaking the traditions of men like Jesus said to do. Could that be the straight and narrow path He mentioned?
Now it's true that most Christians in modern times would have a hard time following the 4th Commandment as that would mean forsaking the traditions of men like Jesus said to do. Could that be the straight and narrow path He mentioned?
There is no righteousness one can attain from the works of the law. Christ alone is our righteousness.
Romans 3:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Galatians 2:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Even in the Old Testament God spoke of His righteousness being given to the believer so all scripture is profitable for "proper instruction in righteousness" just as Paul told Timothy.
Isaiah 54:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.
Romans 3:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Galatians 2:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Even in the Old Testament God spoke of His righteousness being given to the believer so all scripture is profitable for "proper instruction in righteousness" just as Paul told Timothy.
Isaiah 54:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.
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... for instruction in righteousness [we can't just say my righteousness is Messiah's]
imagine that. we need instructions. this is from Shau-ul.
imagine that. we need instructions. this is from Shau-ul.
Looks like it is time for "scripture" again in the area of righteousness. Why do people fight so much against the work of Christ and instead live by their own humanistic thoughts? Why don't we believe in Christ? Why are we continually denying Him?
Here are what the scriptures say about righteousness and believers that are "in Christ" now. Everyone can believe what they want too.
The understanding of the new creation in Christ created in righteousness and holiness and the new identity of the believer is paramount to living the true Christian life.
This does not come by trying to go back to living by the Law. It comes from the hearing of Christ which brings true biblical faith. Romans 10:17
Here it says our spirit ( the inner person that is a new creation in Christ ) is alive because of righteousness that it is it.
Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin,yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Here righteousness is a gift - you don't earn it.
Romans 5:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
We have grace reigning in our lives because of righteousness in us.
Romans 5:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21[/SUP] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Here righteousness comes by faith.
Romans 9:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Here when we believe - we are righteousness.
Romans 10:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
We are in the kingdom of God.
Romans 14:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17[/SUP] For the kingdom of God ( Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within you..He might know a thing or two ) is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Here it says that God made us righteousness in Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
This says we have become the righteousness of Christ ( this is called a dependent clause in the greek - it is determined as fulfilled because Christ became sin )
2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Believers are called righteousness.
2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
Here it is saying that "righteousness comes by Christ".
Galatians 2:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
Here we have the breastplate of righteousness - which is the armor of God that we are to be strong in.
Ephesians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, andhaving on the breastplate of righteousness;
This talks about the new man in Christ - the new creation.
Ephesians 4:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
Ok..that's enough..there are tons more....
Here are what the scriptures say about righteousness and believers that are "in Christ" now. Everyone can believe what they want too.
The understanding of the new creation in Christ created in righteousness and holiness and the new identity of the believer is paramount to living the true Christian life.
This does not come by trying to go back to living by the Law. It comes from the hearing of Christ which brings true biblical faith. Romans 10:17
Here it says our spirit ( the inner person that is a new creation in Christ ) is alive because of righteousness that it is it.
Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin,yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Here righteousness is a gift - you don't earn it.
Romans 5:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
We have grace reigning in our lives because of righteousness in us.
Romans 5:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21[/SUP] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Here righteousness comes by faith.
Romans 9:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Here when we believe - we are righteousness.
Romans 10:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
We are in the kingdom of God.
Romans 14:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17[/SUP] For the kingdom of God ( Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within you..He might know a thing or two ) is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Here it says that God made us righteousness in Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
This says we have become the righteousness of Christ ( this is called a dependent clause in the greek - it is determined as fulfilled because Christ became sin )
2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Believers are called righteousness.
2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
Here it is saying that "righteousness comes by Christ".
Galatians 2:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
Here we have the breastplate of righteousness - which is the armor of God that we are to be strong in.
Ephesians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, andhaving on the breastplate of righteousness;
This talks about the new man in Christ - the new creation.
Ephesians 4:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
Ok..that's enough..there are tons more....
L
LaurenTM
Guest
really?
so who has kept even the 10 commandments without sinning in thought or deed?
see, the moment we give way to ANY sort of law keeping, we may as well give in to all of it
we should really see the gospel as THOU SHALT not the ever popular thou shalt not
if anyone thinks they have kept even the 10 commandments, I'm here to tell you that you break them every single day
understand that Christ fulfilled the law...ALL of it...not because He is the law, as these confused law teachers state, but because he NEVER BROKE ANY OF IT
His work is complete...the law was never meant to be a salvic issue...Christ alone is our salvation and has been from Genesis on...
God desires obedience and He found it when Christ said 'here am I'...people need to recognize the conversation between God the Father and the Son throughout scripture.
no one can keep the law...now we know we should...yes we should...but that is recognizing that God is righteous when He judges us by the law
which is why you have to be some kind of deceived to put yourself BACK under the law and state such evil as "Jesus did His part"...compliments of disciplemike
Jesus did His part?
Jesus is ALL of it...every single part!
F
FreeNChrist
Guest
W
wvbeliever
Guest
OffcerMayo, Matthew 7:14-15 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. The only way in that gate is Jesus He is the "gate" mediator between man and God there is no other way. No one gets through the gate without Him.
Obviously you missed the fact that the word "instruction" in 2 Tim 2:16 means to "child-train". It has nothing to do with the law/torah. Your attempt to twist the word "instruction" to try to mean torah/law is indicative of the religion that you espouse which is anti-Christ in it's beliefs.
No one here is going to desert Christ ( Gal. 1:6 ) for your religion. This is a Christ-based forum.
Real Christians should be on the Jewish forums telling them about their Messiah - instead you come here to try to get Christians to desert Christ for going back to the law.
Paul called these types Judaizers. Law-keepers that try to get believers in Christ to do the same thing are our modern day Judaizers.
hello copy king.
just a note. you may want to write this down.
in the context of Sha-ul writing to Timothy about "instructions in righteousness",
Timothy did not have 1 Corinthians or Romans. The only Scripture Timothy had, and knew from the time he was a child, was the "Old Testament".
get over it.