So what about the fourth commandment?

[disciplemike]

"end" there is the Greek "telos" = means the "aim" of the law. Our English word telescope comes from the same root word. Now, if you aim a "telescope", do you demolish the moon or just see it more clearly?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Interaction with "law-keepers" is like dealing with the Jewish people that love God. They have a zeal for God but just not according to knowledge.

That knowledge is the New Covenant and that we now live by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, the law of love, the law of faith, the law of liberty and the law of Christ - which is Christ being in us in our new man - created in righteousness and holiness.

We live by the life of Christ in us now.

We can trust the Holy Spirit to lead us in this life for all that we need. We can look at the law to see how it relates to Jesus as He fulfilled it.

Romans 10:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.

[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

[SUP]5 [/SUP] For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.

Tell me about it Grace777! It's along the lines of speaking with Amillennialists or Preterists. It just makes me all the more thankful to be completely free in Christ. Scriptures states that Israel stumbled over the stumbling stone and that because it was spoken against them, but unfortunately, so have many Gentiles but putting themselves under the law which was never meant for them. If Disciplemike keeps saying that salvation is through Christ alone, yet continues to impress upon everyone these different requirements from the law that we need to keep. If this was the truth, then we would all be in agreement and proclaiming the same teachings, but we're not and that because it is what it is, false!

 

[Grace777x70]

"end" there is the Greek "telos" = means the "aim" of the law. Our English word telescope comes from the same root word. Now, if you aim a "telescope", do you demolish the moon or just see it more clearly?

The "aim" was to bring it to it's end in Christ! He fulfilled it. Trust Him and the Holy Spirit if you are a believer in Him. He is all you need for life and godliness in this life and in the one to come.[FONT="Galatia Sil" !important]
τέλος[/FONT], [FONT="Gentium" !important]telos
[/FONT]
Usage Notes: "an end, termination," whether of time or purpose,

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

did the cross give you license to break commandments? is that how this thing works?

No,the cross didn't give license to break commandments but GOD loves righteousness and truth and wanted a relationship with man,but man could not fulfill the law perfectly(all came short) so then GOD In CHRIST made a way for man to be perfect by fulfilling the law perfectly as a man and dieing on a cross(a body has thou prepared for me) and taking our sins and giving us HIS righteousness,thats Grace,and we have access to this grace by faith.

Those that have been reborn are members of the body of CHRIST and are GODs workmanship created In CHRIST unto good works that were before ordained that we should walk In them.

 

[Ahwatukee]

"end" there is the Greek "telos" = means the "aim" of the law. Our English word telescope comes from the same root word. Now, if you aim a "telescope", do you demolish the moon or just see it more clearly?

It means exactly what it says! You look at words while at the same time ignoring the entire context. Jesus did not come to meet the righteous requirements of the law in order to perpetuate it. He came to fulfill it and being to its end as satisfying God's requirement for its fulfillment. And now here you are trying to perform slivers of it. If you're under the law, then you have to keep the entire law, not just snippets of it. And after you have put yourself under the entire law, once you break it in just one place, you have broken the whole thing. You're either completely under grace or your completely under the law. There is no in between. When I go before the Lord, my only claim to salvation will be His finished work on the the cross. I'm certainly not going to go before Him with the attitude of Lord look what I did. This is exactly why the Lord says that on that day many will say to me "But Lord, Lord!" And you substitute any thing in there you want. The "didn't we prophecy in your name and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles" are just examples. I'm sure that many people will have their own personal claims as to what they did as the reason why they should be allowed into the kingdom of God.

 

[disciplemike]

The "aim" was to bring it to it's end in Christ! He fulfilled it. Trust Him and the Holy Spirit if you are a believer in Him. He is all you need for life and godliness in this life and in the one to come.[FONT="Galatia Sil" !important]
τέλος[/FONT], [FONT="Gentium" !important]telos
[/FONT]
Usage Notes: "an end, termination," whether of time or purpose,

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words.

Then how can Shaul say this:
What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Romans 6:15-16 (ESV2011)

 

[Ahwatukee]

Then how can Shaul say this:
What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Romans 6:15-16 (ESV2011)

Paul is not talking about keeping the law here, but about living according to the sinful nature. In other words, since we are no longer under the law shall we continue to live according to the sinful nature, ergo, because we are not under the law does it give us license to sin? God forbid.

 

[disciplemike]

Paul is not talking about keeping the law here,

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1 John 3:4 (KJV)

 

[TonyJay]

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1 John 3:4 (KJV)

huh!

Last I checked Paul and John were different people????

 

[Ahwatukee]

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1 John 3:4 (KJV)

This is exactly what I've been talking about. You keep saying that salvation is only through Christ, but then you claim the above. You're double-minded. We cannot be under grace and the law at the same time.

 

[disciplemike]

This is exactly what I've been talking about. You keep saying that salvation is only through Christ, but then you claim the above. You're double-minded. We cannot be under grace and the law at the same time.

That was not me "who claimed the above". That was John.

 

[Grace777x70]

Then how can Shaul say this:
What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Romans 6:15-16 (ESV2011)

Because we live by the life of Christ in us. The law is not made for the righteous. The just shall live by faith.

 

[disciplemike]

Because we live by the life of Christ in us. The law is not made for the righteous. The just shall live by faith.

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 5:13 (KJV)

 

[TonyJay]

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 5:13 (KJV)

What does this mean?
I know what it means - in context - part of the whole book of Romans.
That single verse is completely meaningless - especially since you appear incapable of appreciating its context.

 

[Grace777x70]

Then how can Shaul say this:
What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Romans 6:15-16 (ESV2011)

One thing to note is the words "leads to" righteousness is not in the original Greek. The Greek word is "eis" which means "to" or "into". Paul is simply saying that as we yield to the Spirit in us we are in obedience to the righteousness that is in our new creation in Christ.

The new man in Christ is created in righteousness and holiness. Walk by the spirit and we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. We don't need a law for that.

 

[Ahwatukee]

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 5:13 (KJV)

This is not supporting your position, but just the opposite. It is saying that where there is no law, there is no transgression. I like the way the NLT puts it, "the best way to not break the law is to have no law to break." Therefore, since we have died with Christ, we have died to the law. It no longer has power over us. As the scripture states, "the power of sin is the law" so why would we want to put ourselves back under it?

 

[disciplemike]

This is not supporting your position, but just the opposite. It is saying that where there is no law, there is no transgression. I like the way the NLT puts it, "the best way to not break the law is to have no law to break." Therefore, since we have died with Christ, we have died to the law. It no longer has power over us. As the scripture states, "the power of sin is the law" so why would we want to put ourselves back under it?

I keep trying to tell you, but you have a 1-track mind. Move on from the milk of the word.
Real believers are not under the law for salvation. How many times do I have to say it? John is telling you that sin still exists, even for believers. If there was no law, there could not be any sin. The Messiah did not take away the law. He took our penalty.
John even says it like this, "little children, sin not, but if you do sin, we have an Advocate with the Father"
One more time now: Where there is no law, there can be no sin. John is telling believers to "sin not". Sin is a transgression of God's law. So, if it is possible for believers to sin, then there must still be a law to break.

 

[disciplemike]

Walk by the spirit and we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. We don't need a law for that.

And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do
[them]. Ezekiel 36:27 (KJV)

 

[Grace777x70]

And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do
[them]. Ezekiel 36:27 (KJV)

Put that in context with the finished work of Christ and you are on your way to living by faith in Christ alone. Because the law/statutes/judgements is the law of Christ.

Answer us these 3 qurstions below:

1) if people do not "observe" Saturday as a Sabbath - what happens to them?..

2) what exactly does observe the Sabbath mean?..

3) what can one do and not do on a Sabbath?

Thank you for your answers.

 

[disciplemike]

Put that in context with the finished work of Christ and you are on your way to living by faith in Christ alone. Because the law/statutes/judgements is the law of Christ.

Answer us these 3 qurstions below:

1) if people do not "observe" Saturday as a Sabbath - what happens to them?..

2) what exactly does observe the Sabbath mean?..

3) what can one do and not do on a Sabbath?

Thank you for your answers.

First off, I think the context is clear in Ezekiel. Like it or not, this is the "New Covenant" or "New Testament" that Ezekiel is talking about.


I appreciate these questions. (even though my answers will be bombarded shortly afterwards)

1. The only thingI can tell you there, that to knowingly break the 4th commandment is sin.
2. Scripture defines the Sabbath, but here is my attempt. Rest. No unnecessary work. No cooking. No cleaning. No planning for work. No causing anyone else to do non-emergency work. This would cause a limited amount of health care people and police to need to be on duty of course. Fellowship & Bible study is always good. Can you imagine how powerful that would be, if all believers observed it? It would be a huge witness.
3. I think I pretty much answered this in #2.
4. I have been observing the Sabbath for about the last 3 years and it really has been a delight! It does not feel like bondage to me. It feels like liberty.