So what about the fourth commandment?

[disciplemike]

Well while I certainly think the OT has many many merits, and should not be discarded, we know much of the "law" was "replaced" with "grace". Leviticus, and I think numbers possibly are some books that provide insight into the early sabbath. However we both know what the Sabbath had become by the time of Jesus. We know the Sabbath basically means to "rest" and we know we use that rest to worship and give glory to God.

Jesus said "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath."

so is there really any "specific" way to observe the Sabbath? Other than following the basic principals we observe as Christians and applying them to a gathering? It seems like when Jesus said "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." he gave us a lot of leeway on how to observe it, because of how societies, and cultures vary. It makes sense because there has to be multiple ways to observe as needed by the situation. When Christians were persecuted we could hardly afford to gather en-mass in the open like we do now.

sounds like someone is letting theology override Scripture.

 

[Vigil]

sounds like someone is letting theology override Scripture.

Well is not theology based on scripture? I'm simply trying to honestly understand what Jesus meant.

It makes sense that observance of the Sabbath should be flexible, because as I said earlier, situations vary, and Christians who are persecuted have to worship differently than the rest of us.

If I am in error, please tell me how. But I am perplexed by your criticism.

 

[disciplemike]

Well is not theology based on scripture? I'm simply trying to honestly understand what Jesus meant.

It makes sense that observance of the Sabbath should be flexible, because as I said earlier, situations vary, and Christians who are persecuted have to worship differently than the rest of us.

If I am in error, please tell me how. But I am perplexed by your criticism.

Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Acts 14:22 (KJV, MBM)

 

[Vigil]

Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Acts 14:22 (KJV, MBM)

I'm not sure how this relates to what I was trying to convey. I just read through the passage. I'm trying to see if I am missing something.

Do you find something contradictory in my thoughts that go against this passage? Cause I don't see how I was disputing this. I need some extrapolation, I'm sorry if this seems obtuse.

 

[disciplemike]

I'm not sure how this relates to what I was trying to convey. I just read through the passage. I'm trying to see if I am missing something.

Do you find something contradictory in my thoughts that go against this passage? Cause I don't see how I was disputing this. I need some extrapolation, I'm sorry if this seems obtuse.

"Christians" who don't want to obey commandments won't be persecuted. The world will love them.

 

[Vigil]

"Christians" who don't want to obey commandments won't be persecuted. The world will love them.

I never said not to obey the 4th commandment, I just said that we are not beholden to some strict law on what the "sabbath" HAS to look like. It SHOULD be a gathering of two or more, it should be about worshiping Jesus, and trying to gain sustenance for our faith and learn the word. Anything beyond that seems like a personal preference to me. I don't see anything in scripture contradicting this. I think Jesus himself encouraged something other than the traditional "services" provided by the pharisees which is what the modern institution of "service" looks like to me.

Please tell me what you think the Sabbath has to look like then? And where the scripture says this.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

"Christians" who don't want to obey commandments won't be persecuted. The world will love them.

I think you aren't understanding how some see it...I believe I understand how you are seeing it but that you aren't completely understanding how others see it. Or just me, for that matter. I'll just talk about how I see it.

We know that the law is spirit because God is Spirit.
And we know that it is the spirit that avails a man, not the letter.

And we know why this is - because a man can keep the letter easily enough. It's pretty clear - what not to eat or wear, how to prepare foods, when to eat and not eat, etc. But it is quite possible to keep the letter and for God to be very displeased with you because we know the outside of the cup can be clean and shiny looking while inside is filth.

Following the law covers the outside. You could be obeying the law outwardly by never murdering a man while inside you break it all the time with angers and resentments. And you could THINK you are obeying that law when all the while you are disobeying it.

Jesus says, if the inside of the cup is clean, the outside just will be as well. But the reverse is not necessarily true.
So I take this to heart. I believe and agree with what He tells me about the law, in spirit and truth. And so I confess my murders and rely on His Spirit to change this in me. The world would have me believe I am not a murderer, but I believe Jesus instead of the world. When He says that it is what comes from inside me that defiles me, I believe Him. I see it is true.

I, like David, want to understand the law in spirit because it is the spirit that avails me, not the letter.

A man cannot murder outwardly unless he has already done so inwardly. But the reverse is not true. He can keep from murdering outwardly but be murdering away in his heart. This is why the Holy Spirit always gets me to see the spirit, so I will not be deceived that I am obeying when I'm not, and also because He knows if I don't murder inwardly, then the outside won't either.

So I don't know if that helps you to understand me better as to why He leads me to inward obedience, but He is very wise and knows what He is doing in how He leads and teaches me!

 

[garee]

"Christians" who don't want to obey commandments won't be persecuted. The world will love them.

And which Christians would that be? The ones that followed after the law of the fathers. Is it the fathers you are trusting in? Are they the one that began the good work of salvation and will finish it to the end? There the ones like Saul whose named was changed to Paul that did persecute the Christians. After that manner?

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[Vigil]

I think you aren't understanding how some see it...I believe I understand how you are seeing it but that you aren't completely understanding how others see it. Or just me, for that matter. I'll just talk about how I see it.

We know that the law is spirit because God is Spirit.
And we know that it is the spirit that avails a man, not the letter.

And we know why this is - because a man can keep the letter easily enough. It's pretty clear - what not to eat or wear, how to prepare foods, when to eat and not eat, etc. But it is quite possible to keep the letter and for God to be very displeased with you because we know the outside of the cup can be clean and shiny looking while inside is filth.

Following the law covers the outside. You could be obeying the law outwardly by never murdering a man while inside you break it all the time with angers and resentments. And you could THINK you are obeying that law when all the while you are disobeying it.

Jesus says, if the inside of the cup is clean, the outside just will be as well. But the reverse is not necessarily true.
So I take this to heart. I believe and agree with what He tells me about the law, in spirit and truth. And so I confess my murders and rely on His Spirit to change this in me. The world would have me believe I am not a murderer, but I believe Jesus instead of the world. When He says that it is what comes from inside me that defiles me, I believe Him. I see it is true.

I, like David, want to understand the law in spirit because it is the spirit that avails me, not the letter.

A man cannot murder outwardly unless he has already done so inwardly. But the reverse is not true. He can keep from murdering outwardly but be murdering away in his heart. This is why the Holy Spirit always gets me to see the spirit, so I will not be deceived that I am obeying when I'm not, and also because He knows if I don't murder inwardly, then the outside won't either.

So I don't know if that helps you to understand me better as to why He leads me to inward obedience, but He is very wise and knows what He is doing in how He leads and teaches me!

My basic point is I don't see any "letter" for the Sabbath beyond the OT, which became corrupted by the time Jesus walked among us. The only "letter" I've seen related to basic conduct of women and men in a gathering.

 

[RobbyEarl]

Who were the Commandments given to? Who were they meant for? Why did Paul spend His life defeating it? Why in the letter from the church to the gentiles (approved by Peter, James, Paul, John, James the brother of Jesus) did they not mention keeping Sabbath. I will show it to you.

Acts 15

[FONT=&quot]22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.[/FONT]

 

[Vigil]

Who were the Commandments given to? Who were they meant for? Why did Paul spend His life defeating it? Why in the letter from the church to the gentiles (approved by Peter, James, Paul, John, James the brother of Jesus) did they not mention keeping Sabbath. I will show it to you.

Acts 15

22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.

Now this is something I can sink my teeth into, thank you for pointing this out. We are not beholden to the limitations imposed by the OT, because of the NC. It's that simple. (At least the gentiles it seems.)

 

[RobbyEarl]

Did Rahab Keep the Law? Or did she have faith and became a great great great grandmother to the Lord Jesus Christ. According to law, she could not enter the congregation of Israel until the tenth generation, but faith prevailed, Amen.

 

[Vigil]

Would like to amend my previous statement and extrapolate that not ALL of the OT goes out the window obviously. But the cumbersome and hyper-specific rules and regulations are no longer an issue because Jesus made most of them no longer necessary. When you have Faith and Grace, and are sincere, why should you follow letters of the law that were not directed at you?

 

[ukok102nak]

:haha: as it is written
:read:
Levitico: 19. 11. Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.
12. And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
13. Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.
14. Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.

15. Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

16. Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.

17. Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

:ty:

godbless us all always

 

[RobbyEarl]

Would like to amend my previous statement and extrapolate that not ALL of the OT goes out the window obviously. But the cumbersome and hyper-specific rules and regulations are no longer an issue because Jesus no longer made it necessary.

Extrapolate ? are you an engineer? well anyway we should go to church. I can give scripture for that as well. But the question is where is our faith or what is the object of our faith? Is it in keeping a day or not eating pork or is it in the work of the Cross by our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

My basic point is I don't see any "letter" for the Sabbath beyond the OT, which became corrupted by the time Jesus walked among us. The only "letter" I've seen related to basic conduct of women and men in a gathering.

Well...that gets trickier.
We have a commandment to not murder and we know fully well we are to keep it outwardly. No one would ever say to me, if I say I've never shot, stabbed or bludgeoned anyone to death, that it is a bad thing I've done. I've kept that law outwardly and it's a good thing.

Then we have another commandment to keep the Sabbath rest holy. So my human mind begins to get tangled and I think, I have to keep that one outwardly too.

Right there, at that exact point, is my temptation. My own mind is pulling me back to obeying the law outwardly. I think one day is holier than other days. But this law, just like the one about murder, is spirit too because God is Spirit. When I began to rest in Him, it was beginning to look to Him for everything. I rested from the dead work of keeping the law outwardly. When I get pulled back to that dead work, this is the spirit of disobedience - I begin to break the true Sabbath rest in spirit and truth and gravitate back toward the outside of my cup even though it is what comes from INSIDE me that defiles me.

But once again, if I go to church every Sunday, no one would say I have done a bad thing. But also once again, if I think that meets Gods' standard while inside I am breaking that law, my righteousness has not exceeded that of the Pharisee. I have BECOME the Pharisee.

So, the best remedy I have found is to just not concern myself with outward obedience at all because it doesn't avail me. I ask instead, teach me Your law! Your law delights my inner man! Because if the inside gets cleaned by Him, I will be TRULY not breaking His law!

 

[RobbyEarl]

Acts 15

[FONT=&quot]6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ[a] we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”[/FONT]

 

[ukok102nak]

:haha: as it is written
:read:
Mga Bilang: 11. 23. And the LORD said unto Moses, Is the LORD's hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not.
24. And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle.

25. And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
26. But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.

27. And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
28. And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.

29. And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD's people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!

30. And Moses gat him into the camp, he and the elders of Israel.
31. And there went forth a wind from the LORD, and brought quails from the sea, and let them fall by the camp, as it were a day's journey on this side, and as it were a day's journey on the other side, round about the camp, and as it were two cubits high upon the face of the earth.
32. And the people stood up all that day, and all that night, and all the next day, and they gathered the quails: he that gathered least gathered ten homers: and they spread them all abroad for themselves round about the camp.
33. And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the people with a very great plague.
34. And he called the name of that place Kibroth-hattaavah: because there they buried the people that lusted.

35. And the people journeyed from Kibroth-hattaavah unto Hazeroth; and abode at Hazeroth.

:ty:

godbless us all always

 

[Vigil]

Extrapolate ? are you an engineer? well anyway we should go to church. I can give scripture for that as well. But the question is where is our faith or what is the object of our faith? Is it in keeping a day or not eating pork or is it in the work of the Cross by our Lord Jesus Christ.

By extrapolate I meant clarify. I actually clearly used that word wrong, after refreshing my memory and looking at google. My bad. I tend to prefer certain words, and this time I used one in ignorance.

I agree with what you just said though. Or rather what I think you implied in that Its about Jesus, not about trying to adhere to the letter. That being said we should still try our best to keep the commandments and be obedient.

 

[jamesg1951]

The cross changed everything.

What did Jesus say ?

Matthew 5: 16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven. 17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.…
Matthew 7:12
In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

Romans 3:31
Do we, then, nullify the Law by this faith? By no means! Instead, we uphold Law.

It is because men are evil that they have to be told that murder and stealing and adultery are wrong.

What is truth? Who is my neighbor? Questions asked because people want to be able to justify doing what they know is wrong.