Some thoughts on the modern church....

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Seeker47

Seeker47

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2018
1,646
1,434
113
I’m curious, when Yeshuah returns for his bride, what will he think about the church?

It is easy to be critical of the modern church; Lord knows I have taken a few shots at her myself. If we look at the church from a broad view we see something very confusing.

Without question, the church has built more hospitals and schools, provided more food and clothing to the needy, rescued more widows and orphans, attended the sick and injured, rescued more souls from deprivation, visited more prisons and sat with more elderly and dying people than any group on earth. (But not so much now…)

It has also caused more wars, created more division, exploited more people, perfected exquisite tortures, turned its back on evil, sought personal gain, abused the ignorant and peached more falsehoods than any other.

But just where will He put this craziness? How would He give the church a half-hug?

Would He accept our gifting the responsibilities to love our neighbor to Caesar? Would He accept the “Scrooge” defense of “I pay taxes”?

Personally, I think He will deal with the church just as He deals with me. He will chastise the errant, even casting some away. Those who have turned to him in repentance and atonement will be preserved. Sadly, His Word makes it clear, there will only remain a remnant.

We can pray the church recognize the season and turns, while yet there is grace.
 
  • Love
  • Like
Reactions: JaumeJ and Fillan
Seeker47 said:
It is easy to be critical of the modern church; Lord knows I have taken a few shots at her myself. If we look at the church from a broad view we see something very confusing.
Click to expand...

Over the years, I've had many gripes about the church. I was having such a conversation this morning with one of the formers Elders of the church I used to attend...

Anyhow, I try not to think on these things. I fellowship with a Messianic synagogue now and have two other Messianic groups that I study with. I'm quite happy with that arrangement.
 
  • Heart
  • Like
Reactions: ThereRoseaLamb and JaumeJ
Well the thing with taxes, is in my country, its meant to be spent for the good of the people - ie schools, hospitals, the elderly - the people who need things like education, healthcare and comfort in their old age, and things like infrastructure so we can connect with each other - power/electricity, telecommunications, public transport - rail, buses, ferry.

But it depends on the govt in power what they do with the budget.
So I think it was one Prime Minister Richard Seddon who instigated the Welfare State. This was meant to be active Christian Charity, as he was a Christian and thought that was the practical thing you did with taxes.

He was left wing or liberal as you might call it. When people laboured, they paid a part of their wages as taxes - it automatically comes off your wage in the form of PAYE - pay as your earn. usually its 10 percent. If you don't earn a wage, i.e not a labourer, and earn a salary or other kind of income, you need to calculate your taxes for the given year and pay that according to your tax bracket. So if you earn more or over a certain threshold you pay 25% or 33% or something like that. Industries that made a profit, and that could vary over any given year.

Also we pay GST on goods and services, it used to be 12.5% now its gone up to 15% so anything you bought had the GST added and that part was built into the price of many things. eg everytime you buy something, you pay a tax.

But thing is...a lot of rich people, because they have to pay more relatively because they make so much more than those on wages/fixed incomes, think they shouldn't have to pay tax (especially when they sell a house/property) and try to get tax breaks and vote in govt that cuts tax, so they can spend on other things that may or may not benefit the country. And then essential services, people think its better to hav user pays, and have everyone working so they don't become dependant on welfare.

But that only benefits a small number of people, or the elite who have enough capital to own businesses, not always for the good of the people but whatever makes a profit. And they resent any taxes being spent on the underserved. They reckon no children should have the govt pay for school lunches cos they reckon its the parents responsibility to feed children lunch at school (ie. take your own) and that you need to pay for your own healthcare and medicines and education.

Anyway, the thing is not everyone likes paying tax or what the govt is choosing to spend it on.

Now imagine you on a fixed income (wages are usually set to a certain amount per hour and believe you me businesses often will just pay the bare minimum they can get away with) which barely covers the cost of living..ie food, bills, transport - and you join a church that asks you to tithe your income 10% on top of what you ALREADY pay in taxes.

What are the tithes going towards? Usually its to pay the mortgage and bills and admin of the church. it's not going toward hospitals and schools which are free to everyone regardless of race or creed/religion.

Anyway...I could go on but that's just some of the realities of life (death and taxes) and also, nobody likes the tax collector and everyone has different opinions on what tax should be spent on.
 
  • Heart
Reactions: JaumeJ
Tithes are a form of tax, but voluntary..but some churches make everyone pay this or hint if you don't you aren't a good christian. If you do donate to charity you can claim a tax rebate, but you have to say the amount you give.

Some businesses park their money in a tax shelter (like the Cayman Islands) or have Swiss bank accounts, or they register their company in a place that doesn't pay tax - like Delaware. Usually the biggest corporates to this.

Also it wasn't too long ago that the Queen never paid tax, actually the Royal family is funded by the tax payers. Its different in different countries, but you can see which countries really look after their people vs the ones that don't and leave everyone to fend for themselves.
 
Seeker47 said:
I’m curious, when Yeshuah returns for his bride, what will he think about the church?

It is easy to be critical of the modern church; Lord knows I have taken a few shots at her myself. If we look at the church from a broad view we see something very confusing.

Without question, the church has built more hospitals and schools, provided more food and clothing to the needy, rescued more widows and orphans, attended the sick and injured, rescued more souls from deprivation, visited more prisons and sat with more elderly and dying people than any group on earth. (But not so much now…)

It has also caused more wars, created more division, exploited more people, perfected exquisite tortures, turned its back on evil, sought personal gain, abused the ignorant and peached more falsehoods than any other.

But just where will He put this craziness? How would He give the church a half-hug?

Would He accept our gifting the responsibilities to love our neighbor to Caesar? Would He accept the “Scrooge” defense of “I pay taxes”?

Personally, I think He will deal with the church just as He deals with me. He will chastise the errant, even casting some away. Those who have turned to him in repentance and atonement will be preserved. Sadly, His Word makes it clear, there will only remain a remnant.

We can pray the church recognize the season and turns, while yet there is grace.
Click to expand...


here is the message from Jesus Christ to "churches" today

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

look up iniquity
 
One thing that is quite important for a lot of people - hospices and ambulances. I mean anyone, rich and poor can be injured or suffer from illness. It's no too selective, though the poor are more prone to inadequate nutrition and substandard housing thus get sick more often. Everyone will die at some point.

Anyway, in NZ hospices are not govt funded, they rely purely on donations and originally they were a church mission.
Ambulances (st Johns ambulance) are not govt funded either they rely on donations - originally also a church mission
many firefighters are voluntary
SPCA was originally a christian organisation.
Womens refuges...YMCA things like that we take for granted there to serve - originally Christian missions.
Services to the blind..
Housing - we had state housing, widows and those in poverty who couldn't afford a home, had cheaper rentals and the landlord was the govt. That's what Habitat for Humanity is about. But that was state run after the war when people really needed homes and there wasn't enough.
Many churches operate foodbanks, because people pay so much in rent, they can't afford food! This is terrible.

I think many people assume that its easy to make ends meet, and that if you not then you just being irresponsible or don't know how to budget. But its a bit harder to budget when you don't have that much to begin with and must choose between having a roof over your head and food.

Ok I stop now. Maybe I'm just stating the obvious.
 
Lanolin said:
Tithes are a form of tax, but voluntary..but some churches make everyone pay this or hint if you don't you aren't a good christian.
Click to expand...

Don't know what it's like where you're at, but in US and Canada people spend more on their meal after service than what they put in the plate. Bible says God loves a cheerful giver. The church shouldn't have to make anyone feel bad, they should have more than enough.
 
memberofthebride said:
here is the message from Jesus Christ to "churches" today

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

look up iniquity
Click to expand...
This was a message to the disciples, but really Jesus words can apply for all time to anyone who believes what He's saying is the truth.
What does our Father God want or will for us to do?
What are the two essential commandments that Jesus gave?
 
ThereRoseaLamb said:
Don't know what it's like where you're at, but in US and Canada people spend more on their meal after service than what they put in the plate. Bible says God loves a cheerful giver. The church shouldn't have to make anyone feel bad, they should have more than enough.
Click to expand...
How do you know? Maybe food is really expensive in your countries. And everyone needs to eat, you can't eat money.
 
I used to count tithes. but I wasn't privy to how exactly the church spent what was given, though they did have the annual report that showed what the costs went to, and most of it was used to pay bills. Not food to help the hungry.

What we put in the food basket was given to the hungry. Which was food.
 
I'm very suspicious about wealthy pastors, who get rich creaming off the tithes. Like it goes towards their salary. many flaunt their wealth and say its a blessing from God, when actually their parishioners have been paying for their lifestyle.
 
Anyway, Jesus did warn that false teachers would infiltrate the church, and try to fleece the flock, or pull the wool over our eyes.
So, maybe just be aware/vigilant.
 
If you can love your neighbour by being charitable, whether is donation or volunteering, giving your time (if not your money) to those less fortunate (the least of these) God will see that..and He'll reward you.
 
 
Lanolin said:
Well the thing with taxes, is in my country, its meant to be spent for the good of the people - ie schools, hospitals, the elderly - the people who need things like education, healthcare and comfort in their old age, and things like infrastructure so we can connect with each other - power/electricity, telecommunications, public transport - rail, buses, ferry.

But it depends on the govt in power what they do with the budget.
So I think it was one Prime Minister Richard Seddon who instigated the Welfare State. This was meant to be active Christian Charity, as he was a Christian and thought that was the practical thing you did with taxes.

He was left wing or liberal as you might call it. When people laboured, they paid a part of their wages as taxes - it automatically comes off your wage in the form of PAYE - pay as your earn. usually its 10 percent. If you don't earn a wage, i.e not a labourer, and earn a salary or other kind of income, you need to calculate your taxes for the given year and pay that according to your tax bracket. So if you earn more or over a certain threshold you pay 25% or 33% or something like that. Industries that made a profit, and that could vary over any given year.

Also we pay GST on goods and services, it used to be 12.5% now its gone up to 15% so anything you bought had the GST added and that part was built into the price of many things. eg everytime you buy something, you pay a tax.

But thing is...a lot of rich people, because they have to pay more relatively because they make so much more than those on wages/fixed incomes, think they shouldn't have to pay tax (especially when they sell a house/property) and try to get tax breaks and vote in govt that cuts tax, so they can spend on other things that may or may not benefit the country. And then essential services, people think its better to hav user pays, and have everyone working so they don't become dependant on welfare.

But that only benefits a small number of people, or the elite who have enough capital to own businesses, not always for the good of the people but whatever makes a profit. And they resent any taxes being spent on the underserved. They reckon no children should have the govt pay for school lunches cos they reckon its the parents responsibility to feed children lunch at school (ie. take your own) and that you need to pay for your own healthcare and medicines and education.

Anyway, the thing is not everyone likes paying tax or what the govt is choosing to spend it on.

Now imagine you on a fixed income (wages are usually set to a certain amount per hour and believe you me businesses often will just pay the bare minimum they can get away with) which barely covers the cost of living..ie food, bills, transport - and you join a church that asks you to tithe your income 10% on top of what you ALREADY pay in taxes.

What are the tithes going towards? Usually its to pay the mortgage and bills and admin of the church. it's not going toward hospitals and schools which are free to everyone regardless of race or creed/religion.

Anyway...I could go on but that's just some of the realities of life (death and taxes) and also, nobody likes the tax collector and everyone has different opinions on what tax should be spent on.
Click to expand...
Great response. It's a complicated issue but
I believe the church errored in allowing government to assume charity.

Look up how Davie Crockett addressed this issue with a farmer who challenged him. I'll see if I can post a link.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back