Some thoughts on the Sabbath...

[GWH]

Calling “showing” an “amending” of the law is exactly where your framework slips, because fulfillment is not amendment

Fulfillment prepared the way for amendment/superseding, but I like your use of "framework" for "interpretation",
because it connotes God's work/plan of salvation to elect all IN Christ, who is the template or framework for proper interpretation.

TOP #143: “In him/Christ” refers to those who elect to become elect or chosen by understanding and believing/hoping in Jesus for salvation. [Eph. 1:4-15] IOW, election involves cooperation between the will of God and the volition or limited free moral will of human souls. God creates and initiates; humans cooperate—or not.

 

[JustThinking]

Fulfillment prepared the way for amendment/superseding, but I like your use of "framework" for "interpretation",
because it connotes God's work/plan of salvation to elect all IN Christ, who is the template or framework for proper interpretation.

TOP #143: “In him/Christ” refers to those who elect to become elect or chosen by understanding and believing/hoping in Jesus for salvation. [Eph. 1:4-15] IOW, election involves cooperation between the will of God and the volition or limited free moral will of human souls. God creates and initiates; humans cooperate—or

Three very clear statements from Jesus are:

1. John 14:15 — “If you love me, keep my commandments.”
2. John 14:21 — “One who has my commandments and keeps them, that person is one who loves me.”
3. John 15:10 — “If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.”

Could He be any clearer?

 

[OMC]

Fulfillment prepared the way for amendment/superseding, but I like your use of "framework" for "interpretation",
because it connotes God's work/plan of salvation to elect all IN Christ, who is the template or framework for proper interpretation.

TOP #143: “In him/Christ” refers to those who elect to become elect or chosen by understanding and believing/hoping in Jesus for salvation. [Eph. 1:4-15] IOW, election involves cooperation between the will of God and the volition or limited free moral will of human souls. God creates and initiates; humans cooperate—or not.

Your framework reverses Paul’s order: you make human volition the decisive factor that places someone “in Christ,” but Paul says God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4), which means the human response is the effect of election, not the cause. Cooperation is real, but it is enabled, not initiating; faith is the fruit of grace, not the condition that triggers it.
Fulfillment doesn’t amend the law, and human choice doesn’t activate election — in both cases, God’s action is primary, and human response flows from it.

 

[JustThinking]

Fulfillment prepared the way for amendment/superseding, but I like your use of "framework" for "interpretation",
because it connotes God's work/plan of salvation to elect all IN Christ, who is the template or framework for proper interpretation.

TOP #143: “In him/Christ” refers to those who elect to become elect or chosen by understanding and believing/hoping in Jesus for salvation. [Eph. 1:4-15] IOW, election involves cooperation between the will of God and the volition or limited free moral will of human souls. God creates and initiates; humans cooperate—or not.

Three very clear statements from Jesus are:

1. John 14:15 — “If you love me, keep my commandments.”
2. John 14:21 — “One who has my commandments and keeps them, that person is one who loves me.”
3. John 15:10 — “If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.”

Could He be any clearer?

 

[GWH]

Could He be any clearer?

For those who share the mind of Christ sufficiently, most of what Jesus said is clear,
including both what you cited and what I cited; both what Jesus said before his death
and what he revealed via Paul after his resurrection.

Clear enough?

 

[JustThinking]

For those who share the mind of Christ sufficiently, most of what Jesus said is clear,
including both what you cited and what I cited; both what Jesus said before his death
and what he revealed via Paul after his resurrection.

Clear enough?

No it is clearly not. Jesus made His statements to us that can only be understood or interpreted ONE way... no confusion, no ambiquity, no wiggle room whatsoever. Therefore, if we read a comment or statement from Paul or John or Matthew - whoever that does not contradict the words of Jesus that we know we have interpreted their comments correctly. However, if we find that Paul or John or Matthew maybe saying something different, then we should immediately realize that we are not interpreting their statements correctly. The words that came out of His mouth were clear and concise - and it is those words that all other statements or translations or interpretations must be compared to...

 

[legion]

I agree. However , Paul does give some warnings about keeping it in Galations. If you are keeping it religiously—because you believe keeping it will save you,and you think you must still keep that old law, Paul says “You are estranged from Christ.” And you “have fallen from grace.” 5:4. I believe the idea here is we cannot be totally loyal to Christ and his covenant and observe the old law at the same time.

I totally agree I am not trying to say anything different

 

[GWH]

No it is clearly not. Jesus made His statements to us that can only be understood or interpreted ONE way... no confusion, no ambiquity, no wiggle room whatsoever. Therefore, if we read a comment or statement from Paul or John or Matthew - whoever that does not contradict the words of Jesus that we know we have interpreted their comments correctly. However, if we find that Paul or John or Matthew maybe saying something different, then we should immediately realize that we are not interpreting their statements correctly. The words that came out of His mouth were clear and concise - and it is those words that all other statements or translations or interpretations must be compared to...

It is clear to at least one of us that your post was pure opinion.
May I suggest you learn how the NT canon came to be?
But be forewarned: the process was more akin to sausage making than to tape recording.

Every word of Jesus has been filtered through fallible memories, but saying something different
does not necessarily mean what is said is wrong. Perhaps both statements are part of the truth
and need to be harmonized by us fallible readers.

 

[JustThinking]

It is clear to at least one of us that your post was pure opinion.
May I suggest you learn how the NT canon came to be?
But be forewarned: the process was more akin to sausage making than to tape recording.

Every word of Jesus has been filtered through fallible memories, but saying something different
does not necessarily mean what is said is wrong. Perhaps both statements are part of the truth
and need to be harmonized by us fallible readers.

I think I will stick with what Jesus told us... no ambiquity, no confusion, no reason to add to or subtract from what He told us.... It is that simple... You can certainly decide who you want to believe and follow.

 

[GWH]

I think I will stick with what Jesus told us... no ambiquity, no confusion, no reason to add to or subtract from what He told us.... It is that simple... You can certainly decide who you want to believe and follow.

I stick with what the entire Scripture tells us, not only the red letters.
Here is my creed:


The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in Acts 16:31, 2Cor. 4:5 & Col. 2:6) or “Love Jesus as Messiah and Lord” (John 8:42). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in these statements can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), which means trying to obey (Phil. 3:12, 1John 1:8) His commandment to love one another (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (Rev. 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4). Such cooperation can be termed “the surrendered life”.
6. This creed summarizes revelation of the NT Gospel/Truth (Matt. 26:13, John 14:6), which fulfilled the OT revelation (Matt. 5:17, John 19:30, Heb. 7:11-10:10) and culminates the search for salvation by souls who know only general revelation (Rom. 1:20, 2:14-16, Matt. 7:12). Seeking begins when souls love truth/repent of false beliefs (2Thes. 2:10&13, Matt. 4:17, 7:7), which is the Way to eternal life God wills, who is the Lord Jesus (Matt. 7:14, John 1:14, 4:24, 14:6). Lacking this love leads to believing lies and debauchery (Matt. 7:6, Rom. 1:18&25-26, 2Thes. 2:11-12).

What is yours?

 

[OMC]

I stick with what the entire Scripture tells us, not only the red letters.
Here is my creed:


The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in Acts 16:31, 2Cor. 4:5 & Col. 2:6) or “Love Jesus as Messiah and Lord” (John 8:42). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in these statements can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), which means trying to obey (Phil. 3:12, 1John 1:8) His commandment to love one another (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (Rev. 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4). Such cooperation can be termed “the surrendered life”.
6. This creed summarizes revelation of the NT Gospel/Truth (Matt. 26:13, John 14:6), which fulfilled the OT revelation (Matt. 5:17, John 19:30, Heb. 7:11-10:10) and culminates the search for salvation by souls who know only general revelation (Rom. 1:20, 2:14-16, Matt. 7:12). Seeking begins when souls love truth/repent of false beliefs (2Thes. 2:10&13, Matt. 4:17, 7:7), which is the Way to eternal life God wills, who is the Lord Jesus (Matt. 7:14, John 1:14, 4:24, 14:6). Lacking this love leads to believing lies and debauchery (Matt. 7:6, Rom. 1:18&25-26, 2Thes. 2:11-12).

What is yours?

My kerygma is the NT’s own: Jesus the Christ is Lord, crucified and risen, and God commands all people everywhere to repent and believe in Him (Acts 17:30; Acts 16:31; Rom 10:9–10).
The gospel’s structure is consistent: God is holy, just, and universally benevolent (Deut 6:4; 1 Tim 2:4);
humanity is sinful, guilty, and unable to save itself (Rom 3:23; Eph 2:1–3);
Christ is the incarnate Son whose death atones for sin and whose resurrection inaugurates the new creation (Rom 3:24–25; 1 Cor 15:3–4);
faith‑repentance is the sinner’s proper response to God’s grace (Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21);
the Spirit regenerates, indwells, sanctifies, and preserves believers until glory (Rom 8:9–17; Eph 1:13–14); and
love is the ethical fruit and covenant command of the redeemed (John 13:34; Gal 5:14).
Salvation is by grace (God’s cause), through faith (the human reception), in Christ (the mediator), unto obedience (the fruit), by the Spirit (the power), for the glory of God (the end).
That’s the apostolic kerygma, and everything else is elaboration.

 

[JustThinking]

I stick with what the entire Scripture tells us, not only the red letters.
Here is my creed:


The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in Acts 16:31, 2Cor. 4:5 & Col. 2:6) or “Love Jesus as Messiah and Lord” (John 8:42). The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in these statements can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), which means trying to obey (Phil. 3:12, 1John 1:8) His commandment to love one another (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (Rev. 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4). Such cooperation can be termed “the surrendered life”.
6. This creed summarizes revelation of the NT Gospel/Truth (Matt. 26:13, John 14:6), which fulfilled the OT revelation (Matt. 5:17, John 19:30, Heb. 7:11-10:10) and culminates the search for salvation by souls who know only general revelation (Rom. 1:20, 2:14-16, Matt. 7:12). Seeking begins when souls love truth/repent of false beliefs (2Thes. 2:10&13, Matt. 4:17, 7:7), which is the Way to eternal life God wills, who is the Lord Jesus (Matt. 7:14, John 1:14, 4:24, 14:6). Lacking this love leads to believing lies and debauchery (Matt. 7:6, Rom. 1:18&25-26, 2Thes. 2:11-12).

What is yours?

Let it go…

 

[GWH]

My kerygma is the NT’s own: Jesus the Christ is Lord, crucified and risen, and God commands all people everywhere to repent and believe in Him (Acts 17:30; Acts 16:31; Rom 10:9–10).
The gospel’s structure is consistent: God is holy, just, and universally benevolent (Deut 6:4; 1 Tim 2:4);
humanity is sinful, guilty, and unable to save itself (Rom 3:23; Eph 2:1–3);
Christ is the incarnate Son whose death atones for sin and whose resurrection inaugurates the new creation (Rom 3:24–25; 1 Cor 15:3–4);
faith‑repentance is the sinner’s proper response to God’s grace (Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21);
the Spirit regenerates, indwells, sanctifies, and preserves believers until glory (Rom 8:9–17; Eph 1:13–14); and
love is the ethical fruit and covenant command of the redeemed (John 13:34; Gal 5:14).
Salvation is by grace (God’s cause), through faith (the human reception), in Christ (the mediator), unto obedience (the fruit), by the Spirit (the power), for the glory of God (the end).
That’s the apostolic kerygma, and everything else is elaboration.

I view our creeds as essentially the same, whether citing Scripture or adding our words,
except that I do not believe God causes the sinners' reception but allows them to choose
whether or not to cooperate with His will for them to accept Christ as Lord in the human dimension.

 

[GWH]

Let it go…

Let what go where?!

 

[OMC]

I view our creeds as essentially the same, whether citing Scripture or adding our words,
except that I do not believe God causes the sinners' reception but allows them to choose
whether or not to cooperate with His will for them to accept Christ as Lord in the human dimension.

Your creed matches the apostolic kerygma, and the only difference you state is that you see faith as a genuinely free human cooperation with God’s will rather than something God causes irresistibly. Which is not according to scripture.
Where you differ is not in the gospel but in the mechanics of reception — you hold that God allows sinners to cooperate freely, while I hold that God commands all to believe and genuinely enables belief without coercion. Scripture presents faith as a real human act (“believe,” Acts 16:31; “repent,” Acts 17:30) and also as grace‑enabled (John 6:44; Acts 18:27).

 

[GWH]

Your creed matches the apostolic kerygma, and the only difference you state is that you see faith as a genuinely free human cooperation with God’s will rather than something God causes irresistibly. Which is not according to scripture.
Where you differ is not in the gospel but in the mechanics of reception — you hold that God allows sinners to cooperate freely, while I hold that God commands all to believe and genuinely enables belief without coercion. Scripture presents faith as a real human act (“believe,” Acts 16:31; “repent,” Acts 17:30) and also as grace‑enabled (John 6:44; Acts 18:27).

I disagree that Scripture doe not indicate souls may exercise their God-given MFW to choose either to cooperate or not to cooperate with God. Enabling belief does not mean forcing belief. That is the difference between the Gospel and tulipism.

 

[OMC]

I disagree that Scripture doe not indicate souls may exercise their God-given MFW to choose either to cooperate or not to cooperate with God. Enabling belief does not mean forcing belief. That is the difference between the Gospel and tulipism.

Scripture teaches that sinners genuinely act — they believe, repent, obey, resist — but it also teaches that these acts occur only because God enables what the flesh cannot produce (John 6:44; Acts 18:27; Rom 8:7–8), so the difference between the gospel and tulipism is not “forced belief vs. free cooperation,” but that the biblical human response is real and commanded while the biblical divine enablement is necessary and prior, meaning MFW is never portrayed as an autonomous power to generate faith but as the arena in which grace makes belief possible without coercion.

 

[GWH]

Scripture teaches that sinners genuinely act — they believe, repent, obey, resist — but it also teaches that these acts occur only because God enables what the flesh cannot produce (John 6:44; Acts 18:27; Rom 8:7–8), so the difference between the gospel and tulipism is not “forced belief vs. free cooperation,” but that the biblical human response is real and commanded while the biblical divine enablement is necessary and prior, meaning MFW is never portrayed as an autonomous power to generate faith but as the arena in which grace makes belief possible without coercion.

Meaning you do not believe humans have MFW, and all that implies.

 

[OMC]

Meaning you do not believe humans have MFW, and all that implies.

That’s not actually what I’m saying.
Scripture shows two truths at the same time:
humans really do act — we believe, repent, obey, resist — and
God’s grace makes those actions possible because the flesh, on its own, can’t produce them.
That’s why Jesus says no one comes unless the Father draws,
why Paul says the mind of the flesh cannot submit, and
why Acts says people believed because God enabled them.
None of that removes human responsibility or human response; it simply means our freedom operates inside God’s grace, not apart from it.
So I’m not denying MFW — I’m saying the Bible never presents it as an independent power that can generate saving faith on its own.
It presents it as the arena where God’s grace awakens, convicts, and enables a real, non‑coerced human response.

 

[legion]

It is clear to at least one of us that your post was pure opinion.
May I suggest you learn how the NT canon came to be?
But be forewarned: the process was more akin to sausage making than to tape recording.

Every word of Jesus has been filtered through fallible memories, but saying something different
does not necessarily mean what is said is wrong. Perhaps both statements are part of the truth
and need to be harmonized by us fallible readers.

There is absolutely no evidence to support anything you just said it is a red herring and a lie that we do not have the Holy Spirit inspired text preserved with over 95% accuracy and those that are not accurate nothing changes the theology and they aren't based on supposed contradictions so my suggestion is that you need to brush up on your knowledge of how the Bible actually came to be and how carefully these books were translated once or twice and then meticulously copied you need to look up the Mesa rights as well as scribes and see exactly how they did what they did because I can't tell you how wrong you are