Some Truths Are Uncomfortable

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SpeakTruth101

Active member
Aug 14, 2023
874
186
43
#21
He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
John 8:3-11, "8:3, "And the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And having set her in the midst,"8:4, "they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery."8:5, "“And in the Torah Mosheh commanded us that such should be stoned. What then do You say?”"8:6, "And this they said, trying Him, so that they might accuse Him. But יהושע, bending down, wrote on the ground with the finger, as though He did not hear."8:7, "But as they kept on questioning Him, He straightened up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”"8:8, "And bending down again, He wrote on the ground."8:9, "And when they heard it, being reproved by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning from the older ones until the last. And יהושע was left alone, and the woman standing in the middle."8:10, "And יהושע, straightening up and seeing no one but the woman, said to her, “Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Did no one condemn you?”"8:11, "And she said, “No one, Master.” And יהושע said to her, “Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.”

Leviticus 20:10-11, ‘And a man who commits adultery with the wife of another man, who commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor: the adulterer and the adulteress shall certainly be put to death.”

Where was the man that was committing adultery with this woman? The scribes and Pharisees did not include him but only the woman. The Law says “the adulterer and the adulteress shall certainly be put to death.” One can not commit adultery alone, it takes a man and a woman. Therefore without bringing the man also a legal case could not even be started. The accusers themselves were guilty because they were trying to enforce half of a Law, making themselves unreliable witnesses. So no Yahshua/Jesus did not change the Law at any time, the Law was not being followed by the scribes and Pharisees.
 

Komentaja

Active member
Jul 29, 2022
450
235
43
#22
Revelation 21:8



Will try to get back to that after work.
Have a good day.
Thanks id appreciate it. Im not here to debate, im here to learn what you believe about it. To me it seems to say: People who do these things go to the lake of fire, UNLESS of course, they stop doing them.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,236
1,130
113
New Zealand
#23
I've never liked the fear-factor approach to sharing the Gospel, but sometimes even the Lord utilized that avenue to shock some people into a semblance of reality.

Luke 16:19-23
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 "But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 "desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

This topic was driven home to me this morning as I watched a typically negative news report about an 18 year old woman in Mississippi, whom the entire community saw as being a little angel, so nice, so loving, so pretty, and yet, in reality, so hooked on drugs, sex, and looking for "sugar daddy's" to take care of her as long as they provided her the drugs and parties to which she was addicted. The only problem was, one of her sugar daddy's murdered her.

The strong, emotional paradigm of presenting her main studio photo, surrounded by angels tooting their horns, the shampoo hippy Jesus looking toward her photo with adoring eyes, well-wishing cards wishing her the best in Heaven...etc. That's not to say that any mortal among us knows for sure her real fate in eternity, and that's not the thrust of this post.

What is before us, however, is the real danger that so many have placed themselves within, living for the pleasures of the world as if they were NOT going to die tonight, or tomorrow, next week... The real danger is everyone pretending that there's no doubt about the eternal fate of those who had lived for the devil up to the moment of death, and every one of those people envisioned as being in paradise with the Lord, even among surviving family members who intentionally avoid considering the alternative.

The enemy doesn't want those families getting more serious about talking with their remaining, lost children about Hell. The prospect of the dead child being in Hell as a result of a life lived in rejection of Christ, is something the enemy of our souls doesn't want to take place because it works...at least, in the lives of some!

So, to apply the numbing salve to the conscience of parents and friends, the perception of every one of those souls being in Heaven plays right into the devil's hands to ensure that any fear of Hell is not at all uttered. After all, the feelings of the family must be protected, right?

At what expense?

Eternity!

The willingness of so many to play that eternally deadly game, gambling the very souls of their own children and relatives, all on the basis of feelings...

That rich man in torment, as described in Luke 16 above, certainly didn't see any reason to sugar-coat the truth for the sake of feelings! He was dead serious about someone going before his kin and warning them that the place of torment is real, and so horrible that it must be avoided at all costs.

Do you see how perspective can have a total reversal that casts any regard for mere feelings into the trash, where it belongs, when the prospect of eternity comes into play? That's not to say that it's ok to trample feelings with utter disregard, but when weighing on the scales of importance, feelings end up being out-weighed by any and all prospects of eternity!

What say you?

MM
Yeah, I've had a lot of grief with my dad who died in 2012.

One of my brothers who is Christian thinks dad is in heaven.

But dad didn't believe in Jesus. He rejected Jesus as God and Messiah.

The only thing is that does make me wonder though is he had a lot of peace in his last days and made peace with the concept of God allowing suffering. In the end he may have believed in Jesus.

He was going to churches since he was a toddler. But was taught by a minister (of all people) he didn't have to believe in Jesus to be Christian.
 

dlw

Member
Aug 29, 2021
65
34
18
#24
John 8:3-11, "8:3, "And the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And having set her in the midst,"8:4, "they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery."8:5, "“And in the Torah Mosheh commanded us that such should be stoned. What then do You say?”"8:6, "And this they said, trying Him, so that they might accuse Him. But יהושע, bending down, wrote on the ground with the finger, as though He did not hear."8:7, "But as they kept on questioning Him, He straightened up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”"8:8, "And bending down again, He wrote on the ground."8:9, "And when they heard it, being reproved by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning from the older ones until the last. And יהושע was left alone, and the woman standing in the middle."8:10, "And יהושע, straightening up and seeing no one but the woman, said to her, “Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Did no one condemn you?”"8:11, "And she said, “No one, Master.” And יהושע said to her, “Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.”

Leviticus 20:10-11, ‘And a man who commits adultery with the wife of another man, who commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor: the adulterer and the adulteress shall certainly be put to death.”

Where was the man that was committing adultery with this woman? The scribes and Pharisees did not include him but only the woman. The Law says “the adulterer and the adulteress shall certainly be put to death.” One can not commit adultery alone, it takes a man and a woman. Therefore without bringing the man also a legal case could not even be started. The accusers themselves were guilty because they were trying to enforce half of a Law, making themselves unreliable witnesses. So no Yahshua/Jesus did not change the Law at any time, the Law was not being followed by the scribes and Pharisees.
In reality they realized they also are sinners, just like you and me.
 

613

New member
Aug 17, 2023
27
6
3
#25
I've never liked the fear-factor approach to sharing the Gospel, but sometimes even the Lord utilized that avenue to shock some people into a semblance of reality.

Luke 16:19-23
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 "But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 "desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

This topic was driven home to me this morning as I watched a typically negative news report about an 18 year old woman in Mississippi, whom the entire community saw as being a little angel, so nice, so loving, so pretty, and yet, in reality, so hooked on drugs, sex, and looking for "sugar daddy's" to take care of her as long as they provided her the drugs and parties to which she was addicted. The only problem was, one of her sugar daddy's murdered her.

The strong, emotional paradigm of presenting her main studio photo, surrounded by angels tooting their horns, the shampoo hippy Jesus looking toward her photo with adoring eyes, well-wishing cards wishing her the best in Heaven...etc. That's not to say that any mortal among us knows for sure her real fate in eternity, and that's not the thrust of this post.

What is before us, however, is the real danger that so many have placed themselves within, living for the pleasures of the world as if they were NOT going to die tonight, or tomorrow, next week... The real danger is everyone pretending that there's no doubt about the eternal fate of those who had lived for the devil up to the moment of death, and every one of those people envisioned as being in paradise with the Lord, even among surviving family members who intentionally avoid considering the alternative.

The enemy doesn't want those families getting more serious about talking with their remaining, lost children about Hell. The prospect of the dead child being in Hell as a result of a life lived in rejection of Christ, is something the enemy of our souls doesn't want to take place because it works...at least, in the lives of some!

So, to apply the numbing salve to the conscience of parents and friends, the perception of every one of those souls being in Heaven plays right into the devil's hands to ensure that any fear of Hell is not at all uttered. After all, the feelings of the family must be protected, right?

At what expense?

Eternity!

The willingness of so many to play that eternally deadly game, gambling the very souls of their own children and relatives, all on the basis of feelings...

That rich man in torment, as described in Luke 16 above, certainly didn't see any reason to sugar-coat the truth for the sake of feelings! He was dead serious about someone going before his kin and warning them that the place of torment is real, and so horrible that it must be avoided at all costs.

Do you see how perspective can have a total reversal that casts any regard for mere feelings into the trash, where it belongs, when the prospect of eternity comes into play? That's not to say that it's ok to trample feelings with utter disregard, but when weighing on the scales of importance, feelings end up being out-weighed by any and all prospects of eternity!

What say you?

MM
We may be too far into prophecy to keep teaching with kid gloves. My opinion is that most professed believers are biblically illiterate due to lack of sound teaching within the American Church. I don't know if common sense is related to discernment, if so there is little discerning go on. "Therefore my beloved, just as always you have obeyed, not only as in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Do you see what is coming?
 
F

FollowingtheWay

Guest
#26
What really sets the self righteous off is when you say “Good people don’t go to heaven, forgiven people do” 😯
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
1,111
201
63
#27
Yeah, I've had a lot of grief with my dad who died in 2012.

One of my brothers who is Christian thinks dad is in heaven.

But dad didn't believe in Jesus. He rejected Jesus as God and Messiah.

The only thing is that does make me wonder though is he had a lot of peace in his last days and made peace with the concept of God allowing suffering. In the end he may have believed in Jesus.

He was going to churches since he was a toddler. But was taught by a minister (of all people) he didn't have to believe in Jesus to be Christian.
The question is, what does it mean to be a "Christian"? There are so many today who call themselves "Christian" and yet believe in a christ completely unknown within the scriptures, but is rather a fabrication in the imaginations of mere men.

MM
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
1,111
201
63
#28
We may be too far into prophecy to keep teaching with kid gloves. My opinion is that most professed believers are biblically illiterate due to lack of sound teaching within the American Church. I don't know if common sense is related to discernment, if so there is little discerning go on. "Therefore my beloved, just as always you have obeyed, not only as in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Do you see what is coming?
We are seeing the "turning away" taking place right before our eyes.

MM
 

Ted01

Well-known member
May 14, 2022
1,055
447
83
#29
The question is, what does it mean to be a "Christian"? There are so many today who call themselves "Christian" and yet believe in a christ completely unknown within the scriptures, but is rather a fabrication in the imaginations of mere men.

MM
Acts 11:26

26 and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.
(biblestudytools.com)

I guess that to be a "Christian" we need to be a disciple?

So, what is a disciple?
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,236
1,130
113
New Zealand
#30
The question is, what does it mean to be a "Christian"? There are so many today who call themselves "Christian" and yet believe in a christ completely unknown within the scriptures, but is rather a fabrication in the imaginations of mere men.

MM
Yeah, well there is a difference between someone saved, and not committed.. and a christian. As controversial as that sounds.. someone can be genuinely saved but following the world due to weeds growing up in their walk.

In my dad's case though.. he did say he was much more of an idealist when he was young.. and he may have believed in Jesus then. Then he may have got taught the wrong stuff going into his teens. It happens alot.

But yeah.. here in NZ liberal churches do all kinds of strange things with scripture. They will see passages on loving one another.. and the fruits of the Spirit.. and spiritual gifts.. and will embrace scripture.. love it.. proclaim it.. but then when they see passages on hell and God judging sin and you having to receive Jesus to be saved.. they cut those bits out of the bible.
 

Komentaja

Active member
Jul 29, 2022
450
235
43
#31
As controversial as that sounds.. someone can be genuinely saved but following the world due to weeds growing up in their walk.

.
Who lied that to you? That person is an ENEMY of God. Not biblical at all.

James 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

John 15:19
If you were of the world, it would love you as its own. Instead, the world hates you, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.

Galatians 5:19-21 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,236
1,130
113
New Zealand
#32
Who lied that to you? That person is an ENEMY of God. Not biblical at all.

James 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

John 15:19
If you were of the world, it would love you as its own. Instead, the world hates you, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.

Galatians 5:19-21 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
A saved person can struggle in their walk it happens. People get caught up in sin..it happens.

God wants obedience and love from us after conversion but it's not guaranteed to happen.

We are commanded to follow after Jesus, but we gotta be converted first b4 we can do it.

How many biblical figures has trouble with sin? Many.
 

HealthAndHappiness

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2022
10,288
4,332
113
Almost Heaven West Virginia
#33
A saved person can struggle in their walk it happens. People get caught up in sin..it happens.

God wants obedience and love from us after conversion but it's not guaranteed to happen.

We are commanded to follow after Jesus, but we gotta be converted first b4 we can do it.

How many biblical figures has trouble with sin? Many.
Once a person decides to quit trusting their own behavior as the standard of God's righteousness and instead make Jesus and His sacrifice the Object of their trust, then they have a basis to start understanding.
Then they need to read the Bible from cover to cover. Every time they care enough about the Lord and His will to do this, more and more Bible characters will be seen for what they are, sinful men who fail, yet are forgiven by the grace of God.

Here is a true preacher pointing out the wicked fake churches typical of some members on each forum.

.
 

HealthAndHappiness

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2022
10,288
4,332
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Almost Heaven West Virginia
#34
A saved person can struggle in their walk it happens. People get caught up in sin..it happens.

God wants obedience and love from us after conversion but it's not guaranteed to happen.

We are commanded to follow after Jesus, but we gotta be converted first b4 we can do it.

How many biblical figures has trouble with sin? Many.
However, the lost preachers as featured in the link about set about to establish their own righteousness. Today it's refered to as "virtue signaling", which is " look how virtuous WE ARE, because we provide a safe space of acceptance to the LGBTPEDO community. You Bible believers are HATERS so we hate YOU...Blah, blah, blah.!"
Love tells hateful preachers who is allowed to preach what

They reject the sacrifice of Christ as an inclusive afterthought....after their veneer of "love."

There are even serious sins that believers who are destined for heaven commit. Jesus addressed the sin of the church of Pergamos as accepting into their assembly those who teach the doctrine of Balaam, etc. He said that He hates that and He warned them to get rid of such scoundrels.

One more example of a saved believer who was guilty of serious sins was Lot in 2 Peter.


"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds."

We know that Sodom and Gomorrah were full of wicked reprobates that rejected the Lord so the Lord considered them rejects.

He nevertheless spared Lot and offered to do so for his entire family.

Lot was considered just and a righteousness man, not because he was an example of great morality, but because he believed the LORD and was saved eternally.

We could go on and on but your point is well taken and Biblical because you point to the Lord as the reason rather than the virtue signaling self righteousness as the reason. He trusted the LORD, the righteous one and it was accounted unto him for righteousness as was said of his uncle.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,236
1,130
113
New Zealand
#36
However, the lost preachers as featured in the link about set about to establish their own righteousness. Today it's refered to as "virtue signaling", which is " look how virtuous WE ARE, because we provide a safe space of acceptance to the LGBTPEDO community. You Bible believers are HATERS so we hate YOU...Blah, blah, blah.!"
Love tells hateful preachers who is allowed to preach what

They reject the sacrifice of Christ as an inclusive afterthought....after their veneer of "love."

There are even serious sins that believers who are destined for heaven commit. Jesus addressed the sin of the church of Pergamos as accepting into their assembly those who teach the doctrine of Balaam, etc. He said that He hates that and He warned them to get rid of such scoundrels.

One more example of a saved believer who was guilty of serious sins was Lot in 2 Peter.


"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds."

We know that Sodom and Gomorrah were full of wicked reprobates that rejected the Lord so the Lord considered them rejects.

He nevertheless spared Lot and offered to do so for his entire family.

Lot was considered just and a righteousness man, not because he was an example of great morality, but because he believed the LORD and was saved eternally.

We could go on and on but your point is well taken and Biblical because you point to the Lord as the reason rather than the virtue signaling self righteousness as the reason. He trusted the LORD, the righteous one and it was accounted unto him for righteousness as was said of his uncle.
Yeah I haven't understood what virtue signalling is until recently. Its like the Mary Sue or Karen as they are called (although many women who are fine Godly women have these names)

Pointing out all the social injustice and present themselves as flawless...but underneath can be black as the ace of spades
 

Komentaja

Active member
Jul 29, 2022
450
235
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#37
@HealthAndHappiness So what about that Revelation 21:8

How exactly are Christians exempt from that list? (And Galatians 5:19-21 and 1 Cor 6:9-10)
To me Paul is clear, he says be not deceived, you do these things and you will NOT inherit the kingdom. Nothing about it applying to unbelievers only
 

HealthAndHappiness

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2022
10,288
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Almost Heaven West Virginia
#38
Thanks id appreciate it. Im not here to debate, im here to learn what you believe about it. To me it seems to say: People who do these things go to the lake of fire, UNLESS of course, they stop doing them.
That's good. Same here.

When we look at the list at Revelation 21:8, we haven't probably done a lot of sins on it, but one we all can identify with is lying. God is not telling us that we can atone for past sins by promising to obtain from future sins. We're already guilty of the thousands of sins we've already committed.
Reform doesn't pay for past crimes.
That would be like every criminal convicted promising the judge, jury and harmed person that he will promise to be good for now on if he can be absolved of all guilt from the murders, stealing, attacks, rapes or whatever they may be. That is in effect, putting trust in one's good works, like reformation, obedience to the laws perfectly for now on, sacraments, etc. This is what the Lord used to open my understanding to this truth.

"For by grace are you saved through faith, and that, not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."

Ephesians 2:8,9

Salvation from hell is a gift that was already paid for. (See my previous video)
Grace is the kindness that God offers in spite of our wicked sins.
Faith in your good works of cleaning up your life must be rejected for faith that is in the true Savior alone 100%. He is the new Object of your faith, trust, belief. If He already made the payment for that infinity expensive gift, why not accept it already?

I used to believe that Jesus suffered on the cross as a down payment, but I had to do the rest. I was wrong. My good works cannot pay for even a single lie. I realized that He paid for all sins of my past, present and future and satisfied the justice of the Father so that there is no more offering for sins. Hebrews 10:19....

What is necessary to the condemned....everyone who has ever sinned, is to quit trusting in their good deeds and instead trust Jesus 100%.
Jesus said,...

"16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

There's a prayer at the end of this that I prayed to receive that gift of eternal life in heaven. Please pray that too when you get to it.

Free Gift for You ☺️
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,776
113
#39
Tell people to accept the gift of salvation by trusting in the work of Christ Jesus accomplished on our behalf.
Of course. But there must always be a balance when sharing the Gospel. This person will ask why he needs the gift of salvation. Which means one must first start with the Bible truths that (a) all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and (b) the wages of sin is death (which includes the second death). Hence the need for (1) repentance and (2) faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redempton.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,904
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#40
Of course. But there must always be a balance when sharing the Gospel. This person will ask why he needs the gift of salvation. Which means one must first start with the Bible truths that (a) all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and (b) the wages of sin is death (which includes the second death). Hence the need for (1) repentance and (2) faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption.
Agreed,

It took all my concentration to type that one line, CC can be exhausting. :)