SPEAKING TONGUES

[Lamar]

You will hear much on this topic, some biblical, some unbiblical


Biblical:

• Gift of the Holy Spirit 1cor chapter 12 to 14
• For the body of Christ 1cor chapter 12, 13, 14 and Eph 4:11 mark chapter 16
• The gifts are for today and distributed as the Holy Spirit desires 1coe 12
• they are to be desired 1cor 12 & 14 chapters

Unbiblical :

• They have ceased when the bible was put together. Nothing says that in scripture
• 1cor chapter 13 8-10 doesn't say the gifts have ceased.
• Secular linguists do not understand the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not authoritative because they know languages.
• The term modern tongues is not found in the bible. It is a secular term.

You will hear much bias on this topic but the God of the Bible is not a god of confusion.

God given reason:

A. They will cease, we are not told when but they will cease. Was it in 100 AD, 200 AD, 300 AD the scriptures do not give us the year but they will most certainly cease.
B. Pointing out an historical occurrence in the Bible does not prove its present day existence.
C. He who claims must prove. An assertion without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
D. The case for the existence of biblical "tongues" in use today is one that must be based on direct evidence and does not require a New Testament example. IOW, it either is or is not really happening.
E. Physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit are meant to prove and not to be proven. IOW, if you need to defend that such an event is currently happening then the event is probably not happening.

Lamar

 

[Godswilling]

It is sign that person elected to be saved by Christ

Therefore: Speaking in Tongues is a gift from God to all his Chosen.

This is a sign that a person is a chosen of God even in our times today. And that person is speaking in Tongues as the Chosen of God in Old and New Testament did.

 

[obertarti]

Therefore: Speaking in Tongues is a gift from God to all his Chosen.

This is a sign that a person is a chosen of God even in our times today. And that person is speaking in Tongues as the Chosen of God in Old and New Testament did.

To be chosen one should get sanctification of the Holy Spirit not the tongues
Otherwise only is called to be chosen

 

[Godswilling]

To be chosen one should get sanctification of the Holy Spirit not the tongues
Otherwise only is called to be chosen

Chosen of God were sanctify by the Holy Ghost that is why they are Speaking in Tongues.
.
ACTS 2:1-4
2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

 

[obertarti]

Chosen of God were sanctify by the Holy Ghost that is why they are Speaking in Tongues.
.
ACTS 2:1-4
2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Two apostles saying -

Speaking by tongues is speaking

Sanctification is sanctification and of what?

Spirit heart mind soul body?

If spirit of man sanctified what does it mean?

And the same about the rest

 

[homwardbound]

Two apostles saying -

Speaking by tongues is speaking

Sanctification is sanctification and of what?

Spirit heart mind soul body?

If spirit of man sanctified what does it mean?

And the same about the rest

God sanctifies, justifies us by giving us his risen Son and himself to us as the Holy Spirit that teaches us what his sanctification, justification is. At least for me I see this
From day one I chose to believe God, God sealed me in his Son Jesus for me to be new in love and mercy to all as he did that in Son's life, willing death and resurrection for us the people to stand in belief to this mercy of Love for us, regardless of our ignorance and rebellion, that I see all through the First (Old) Testament that went on for years. Then the Son showed up, born of woman not man, to reconcile us all to himself, for us to believe and be new in the same love and mercy given us first by Son for us all, to believe God, stand in God and simply be new and rested in thanksgiving and praise for this amazing grace given us to appreciate, thanks at least for me this I now see
Eph 1:13, 6, 7

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You will hear much bias on this topic but the God of the Bible is not a god of confusion.

God given reason:

A. They will cease, we are not told when but they will cease. Was it in 100 AD, 200 AD, 300 AD the scriptures do not give us the year but they will most certainly cease.
B. Pointing out an historical occurrence in the Bible does not prove its present day existence.
C. He who claims must prove. An assertion without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
D. The case for the existence of biblical "tongues" in use today is one that must be based on direct evidence and does not require a New Testament example. IOW, it either is or is not really happening.
E. Physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit are meant to prove and not to be proven. IOW, if you need to defend that such an event is currently happening then the event is probably not happening.

Lamar

8 Love never fails; but whether prophecies, they shall come to naught: or tongues, they shall; cease; or knowledge, it shall come to naught.

9 But we know in part, and we prophesy in part:

10 when, however, the perfect has come, that; in part shall come to naught.

When has Perfect (Jesus) come for Prophecies-Tongues-Knowledge to cease?

 

[Lamar]

8 Love never fails; but whether prophecies, they shall come to naught: or tongues, they shall; cease; or knowledge, it shall come to naught.

9 But we know in part, and we prophesy in part:

10 when, however, the perfect has come, that; in part shall come to naught.

When has Perfect (Jesus) come for Prophecies-Tongues-Knowledge to cease?

1st Corinthians 13:10 does not state or even imply the 2nd coming of Christ.

If Paul meant the return of the Son of God he would have simply wrote "Jesus".

I noticed you capitalized the word "perfect" in your response, implying the divine. This is bad form.

There are NO bible versions that I know of that claim this understanding of the word.

You simply inserted your bias into the verse.

I suggest that you let scripture speak for itself.

Paul was a smart man, he could have wrote "however when Jesus returns" but chose not to.

Something to think about.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

1st Corinthians 13:10 does not state or even imply the 2nd coming of Christ.

If Paul meant the return of the Son of God he would have simply wrote "Jesus".

I noticed you capitalized the word "perfect" in your response, implying the divine. This is bad form.

There are NO bible versions that I know of that claim this understanding of the word.

You simply inserted your bias into the verse.

I suggest that you let scripture speak for itself.

Paul was a smart man, he could have wrote "however when Jesus returns" but chose not to.

Something to think about.

There's only one thing that has been ever claimed to be as "Perfect."
You telling me there's something else outside of Jesus that is perfect that Paul would be writing about?

We have Church Fathers who tell us Paul meant Jesus.
I suppose you have a little opinion of Church Fathers like most do?

 

[obertarti]

God sanctifies, justifies us by giving us his risen Son and himself to us as the Holy Spirit that teaches us what his sanctification, justification is. At least for me I see this
From day one I chose to believe God, God sealed me in his Son Jesus for me to be new in love and mercy to all as he did that in Son's life, willing death and resurrection for us the people to stand in belief to this mercy of Love for us, regardless of our ignorance and rebellion, that I see all through the First (Old) Testament that went on for years. Then the Son showed up, born of woman not man, to reconcile us all to himself, for us to believe and be new in the same love and mercy given us first by Son for us all, to believe God, stand in God and simply be new and rested in thanksgiving and praise for this amazing grace given us to appreciate, thanks at least for me this I now see
Eph 1:13, 6, 7

You have heard His voice or have seen His image?

 

[Lamar]

There's only one thing that has been ever claimed to be as "Perfect."
You telling me there's something else outside of Jesus that is perfect that Paul would be writing about?

We have Church Fathers who tell us Paul meant Jesus.
I suppose you have a little opinion of Church Fathers like most do?

My faith in most certainly not based on whatever "church fathers" you may agree with. The Word of God is the basis of my faith and it should be for you also.

On your claim that:
"There's only one thing that has been ever claimed to be as "Perfect."
You telling me there's something else outside of Jesus that is perfect that Paul would be writing about?"

There are many things mentioned in the Bible that are labeled as "perfect" other than Jesus.

The unity of the Church ----- 1st Corinthians 1:10
Our Heavenly Father ----- Matthew 5:48
The law that gives freedom ----- James 1:25
The will of God ----- Romans 12:2
The grace of God ----- 2nd Corinthians 12:9
Love ----- 1st John 4;18
The way of God ----- 2nd Samuel 22:31
Etc.

You want tongues to have never ceased.

You cannot get pass this bias.

BTW, what "church fathers" claimed that Paul was writing about Jesus as the perfect in 1sr Corinthians 13:10???

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

My faith in most certainly not based on whatever "church fathers" you may agree with. The Word of God is the basis of my faith and it should be for you also.

On your claim that:
"There's only one thing that has been ever claimed to be as "Perfect."
You telling me there's something else outside of Jesus that is perfect that Paul would be writing about?"

There are many things mentioned in the Bible that are labeled as "perfect" other than Jesus.

The unity of the Church ----- 1st Corinthians 1:10
Our Heavenly Father ----- Matthew 5:48
The law that gives freedom ----- James 1:25
The will of God ----- Romans 12:2
The grace of God ----- 2nd Corinthians 12:9
Love ----- 1st John 4;18
The way of God ----- 2nd Samuel 22:31
Etc.

You want tongues to have never ceased.

You cannot get pass this bias.

BTW, what "church fathers" claimed that Paul was writing about Jesus as the perfect in 1sr Corinthians 13:10???

Has Knowledge ceased?
Is Prophecy still being fulfilled or ceased?

 

[Wansvic]

What is a Speaking Tongues?
Is it necessary to speak in tongues in our times?

Tongues - Essence is the same, but manifest for different purposes.

1 Cor 12 - Spiritual gift of tongues in church setting. (1 Cor. 12:11, 29-30)
1 Cor 14 - Explains the different purposes of tongues.

It's very important to notice that all detailed accounts of the initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit do not follow what is outlined concerning spiritual gifts in 1 Cor. 14:27-28; only 2 should speak in tongues and another interpret, etc. This proves there's a distinction.

Scripture records the manifestation of tongues for the following purposes:
1. The sign of the initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2, 10, 19)
2. Spiritual gift of tongues for public messages. Not everyone will be used to operate in this gift. (1 Cor. 14:5)
3. Unknown tongues used in personal prayer. (1 Cor 14:2, 4, 28)

 

[Lamar]

Has Knowledge ceased?
Is Prophecy still being fulfilled or ceased?

Before asking me another question please respond to my answer to your question on post# 191.

That's how discourse works.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Before asking me another question please respond to my answer to your question on post# 191.

That's how discourse works.

Paul tells us all 3 cease at the same time so if you think tongues has ceased it can only mean you think the other 2 have also ceased.

But to answer your question:
Paul said we would see Perfect face to face.
So everything else you mentioned we won't be doing but experiencing. Only Jesus could we ever see Face to Face.

12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.

 

[homwardbound]

8 Love never fails; but whether prophecies, they shall come to naught: or tongues, they shall; cease; or knowledge, it shall come to naught.

9 But we know in part, and we prophesy in part:

10 when, however, the perfect has come, that; in part shall come to naught.

When has Perfect (Jesus) come for Prophecies-Tongues-Knowledge to cease?

He came to fulfill Prophecies and Law,
As you posted 1 Cor 13:9-10

This, in truth to me is verses 8-12 of 1 Cor 13 that it is spoken of these ceasing, will cease, well see verse 13 what continues forever?


1 Corinthians 13:13

King James Version

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Now see the below verses

Matthew 5:17-18

King James Version

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Tell me who are the Law and Prophecies fufilled for, or are they? They are fulfilled per Jesus (John 19:30)

Those that have received the truth and have seen and have been shown by God, verse 13 of 1 Cor are no longer under Law
Gal 3:19-26 We, the born new by God, now uphold the Law (Romans 8:31)
Those that are not in belief to God yet are still under Law not saved by God in truth yet of Jesus as risen for them yet to do new work through them and take no credit in doing it. That is why we still here and not in a new Heaven and earth yet. There are more to come to belief in the risen Son for them to be freed in truth, and not under Law anymore as God calls this to be in God's timing not anyone else's.
The mixing of Law and grace is like taking water and oil and trying to mix the two together. It does not naturally mix. You can seal a glass with water and oil in it. Shake it up and it appears to have mixed, to do law and then not do law perfect ever, does this. It appears good, yet as soon as the glass of oil and water settle down the water and oil separate again. the same as flesh does this also
So Christ is the end of the Law for us to be saved through his resurrection for us to be given to us by God Father alone, to all those that will not quit belief ( not Deny) God
See the book of Job and put your name in the place of Job, and hear God has trust in you to not deny God either

The question now remains, will you deny God or not, no matter what troubles you go through here on earth first?

 

[Lamar]

But to answer your question:
Paul said we would see Perfect face to face.
So everything else you mentioned we won't be doing but experiencing. Only Jesus could we ever see Face to Face.

12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.

This was not my question and you know it.

This was my question:

BTW, what "church fathers" claimed that Paul was writing about Jesus as the perfect in 1sr Corinthians 13:10???

 

[homwardbound]

You have heard His voice or have seen His image?

God to this day, still speaks, to each of us all. Not all hear God in that small still voice that one knows is truth to them beyond measure
God has not stopped speaking as is said he has by the Bible only now. Actually, God takes the Bible and speaks the truth to us each that are his, that are in willing belief to see and will not stop, even if in adversity(s)

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

This was not my question and you know it.

This was my question:

BTW, what "church fathers" claimed that Paul was writing about Jesus as the perfect in 1sr Corinthians 13:10???

From Church Fathers to Reformers all believe the Perfect to Come (τὸ τέλειον) is seeing God or when we die and see God:

Irenaeus understood τὸ τέλειον to refer to seeing God

Tertullian takes face to face to refer to the visible manifestation of Jesus.

Clement’s view of the passage is quite clear. He first cites verses eight and thirteen and then alludes to verse ten in his explanation. τὸ τέλειον is the believer’s state when he sees God.

Origen cites both verse twelve (“face to face”) and verse ten (“that which is perfect”) is about God.

Cyprian cites 1 Corinthians 13:12 (“seeing through a glass”) a “the secrets of God cannot be seen through now but face to face we shall know."

Eusebius states, “The apostle thought it necessary that the prophetic gift should continue in all the Church until the final coming of Jesus."

Methodius uses τὸ τέλειον in reference to the return of Christ and the events associated with it.

Basil relates τὸ τέλειον to complete (as opposed to partial) knowledge of the truth in heaven about God.

Ambrose addresses the issue of theodicy. In doing so he alludes to 1 Corinthians 13:9–10, relating the perfect to the future day when the believer will be face to face with God.

John Chrysostom identifies τὸ τέλειον with complete knowledge, which from the context of his remarks, will be when we see God.

Jerome wrote τὸ τέλειον refers to the state of perfection or Christian maturity that the believer reaches at death or when they see God.

Augustine pinned, the perfect to come is “When He shall appear, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”

Leo the Great wrote, ‘face to face’ is seeing the very Godhead ‘as He is.’

John Calvin wrote, τὸ τέλειον as the state of perfection that comes to some extent at death, but only completely at the judgment.

Richard Baxter wrote, τὸ τέλειον as the state of perfection reached at death.

Matthew Poole identifies τὸ τέλειον as heaven.

John Locke relates τὸ τέλειον to “the state of accomplishment and perfection” that comes “hereafter.”

Doodridge believes τὸ τέλειον to refer to the heavenly state.

Gill identifies τὸ τέλειον as the perfect knowledge of God in the life to come.

Wesley includes this terse explanation of τὸ τέλειον: “at death and in the last day.

 

[Nehemiah6]

From Church Fathers to Reformers all believe the Perfect to Come (τὸ τέλειον) is seeing God or when we die and see God:

Yet that verse does not say "HE who is perfect" but it says "That [not a person] which is perfect". So why would everyone reinterpret what is plainly stated?
International Standard Version
But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will be done away with.
New International Version
but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will no longer be used.
World English Bible
but when that which is complete has come, then that which is partial will be done away with

Since God and Christ are complete in every way, what remained to be completed by AD 96? The written Word of God -- the Bible. And this goes back to the three gifts which are all related to divine revelation and inspiration. Technically all Scripture is prophecy. Therefore Peter said this (2 Peter 1:21): For the prophecy* came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4394: προφητεία (prophecy)
προφητεία, προφητείας, ἡ (προφητεύω, which see), Hebrew נְבוּאָה, prophecy, i. e. discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; especially by foretelling future events.