Specific Questions for Pretribbers

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presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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Dear Pretribulationists,

May I ask you to answer specifically the following questions. These focus on problems I see with the prtribulational stance.

  • If Revelation 20:5 calls the resurrection after Christ’s return the “first resurrection,” how can there be an earlier resurrection at a pre‑tribulation rapture? Isn't this evidence that the rapture occurs at the Second Coming?
  • How is the pretrib rapture resurrection not in conflict with Revelation 20’s stated timing?
  • Why wouldn't Revelation 19 (the beast being cast into the lake of fire) and 2 Thessalonians 2:8 (the Lord destroying the lawless one at His coming) be describing the same event?
  • Why is there an announcement of the bride being made ready and the wedding supper of the Lamb right before the second coming passage in Revelation 19?
  • Why would the coming (parousia) of the Lord in II Thessalonians 2:1 be different from the coming (parousia) of the Lord in verse 8? What is it about the context (quote from the passage please) that justifies taking these as references to two events?
  • Why would the coming of the Son of man in Matthew 24:29-31 which happens after the tribulation... be a different 'coming of the Son of man' from that referenced in 37, 29, and 44? What in the passage justifies this shift. Please quote scripture to back it up
 
Some of the resurrection references can be confusing.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This "rising" sound a lot like a resurrection. However, since those dead in Christ are not in Hades but are with the Lord and he brings them back with him, that this rising may simply be part of a "translation" more than a resurrection.

Col_1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Heb_11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

___________________________________

While many hold to the church being the "bride of Christ" a perhaps more accurate view could be seen as a redeemed Israel being the bride;

Rev_21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

______________________________________________

Acts 2 dispensationalists try to keep the gospel and epistles unified. Mid Acts dispensationalists see a distinction between the gospels (which is a record of the gospel of the earthly kingdom being offered to the nation of Israel) and the gospel of grace (which is offered to gentiles). Those of Israel can look forward to one of two resurrections.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
 
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An engaged woman is not called a bride. We are betrothed, not married, therefore the church is not Christ's bride. Christ's marriage to his people doesn't happen until the resurrection

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:2
 
Why is the church no longer mentioned after Revelation’s first three chapters?
 
Why is the church no longer mentioned after Revelation’s first three chapters?

It is. This is one place

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the witness of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17
 
Dear Pretribulationists,

May I ask you to answer specifically the following questions. These focus on problems I see with the prtribulational stance.

  • If Revelation 20:5 calls the resurrection after Christ’s return the “first resurrection,” how can there be an earlier resurrection at a pre‑tribulation rapture? Isn't this evidence that the rapture occurs at the Second Coming?
  • How is the pretrib rapture resurrection not in conflict with Revelation 20’s stated timing?
  • Why wouldn't Revelation 19 (the beast being cast into the lake of fire) and 2 Thessalonians 2:8 (the Lord destroying the lawless one at His coming) be describing the same event?
  • Why is there an announcement of the bride being made ready and the wedding supper of the Lamb right before the second coming passage in Revelation 19?
  • Why would the coming (parousia) of the Lord in II Thessalonians 2:1 be different from the coming (parousia) of the Lord in verse 8? What is it about the context (quote from the passage please) that justifies taking these as references to two events?
  • Why would the coming of the Son of man in Matthew 24:29-31 which happens after the tribulation... be a different 'coming of the Son of man' from that referenced in 37, 29, and 44? What in the passage justifies this shift. Please quote scripture to back it up

  1. First resurrection is a definition of quality not quantity. Christ is the first fruits of the first resurrection. It is a resurrection unto life as distinct from the resurrection unto condemnation. Jn.5:29
  2. If you draw a line on a piece of paper then held it up to eye level looking down the line, it would appear as a single dot. It's a matter of perspective based on number one answer ie. quality, not quantity.
  3. It says the lawless one will be revealed. If the revealing and the destroying happen simultaneously then, assuming Christians are going through the great tribulation, they must be pretty dense Christians not to know who the Antichrist was for the past seven years.
  4. Not exactly sure what your point is here. Both Israel and the Church must be "adorned in white" before the marriage can take place. It's why the church stands before the judgement seat of Christ for evaluation. 2Cor.5:10
  5. Because 2Thess.2:1 speaks of two things, Christ's presence on earth and our assembling to Him which occurs in the air, not on earth. 1Thess.4:17
  6. I don't see they are two different comings in Matt.24. At this point the Church doesn't exist so there is no question asked in relation to the Church.

In respect to the Second Coming and the Rapture, the former is a return of Christ to earth for the purpose of ruling the world from Israel while the latter is a promise fulfilled to come and get His church and take her to where He is. Jn.14:3 for the Church's citizenship is in heaven. Phil.3:20

The Rapture is not a return to earth but is the resurrection of the Church as part of the various orders/classes/ranks belonging to Christ that would be raised to life.

1 Corinthians 15:23
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
 
Why is the church no longer mentioned after Revelation’s first three chapters?

John wrote the seven Messianic churches (assemblies) in Asia to prepare them for the tribulation that could have come had Israel received the Kingdom that had been offered them. The postponement of the tribulation has allowed the age of grace. For those who will go through the tribulation the book of Revelation will be helpful as it might have been for those it was originally written to.
 
Some of the resurrection references can be confusing.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This "rising" sound a lot like a resurrection. However, since those dead in Christ are not in Hades but are with the Lord and he brings them back with him, that this rising may simply be part of a "translation" more than a resurrection.

I don't believe the dead in Christ will be flying zombies. I Corinthians 15 speaks of the transformation that occurs in a moment and the twinkling of an eye.

Col_1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Heb_11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
This "rising" sound a lot like a resurrection. However, since those dead in Christ are not in Hades but are with the Lord and he brings them back with him, that this rising may simply be part of a "translation" more than a resurrection.


I don't know where you are going with this. These are different Greek words. Are you trying to imply that the dead are not raised bodily, from the dead?

What does this have to do with the questions in the OP?

___________________________________


While many hold to the church being the "bride of Christ" a perhaps more accurate view could be seen as a redeemed Israel being the bride;

Rev_21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Would you mind sticking with the OP? I don't really see how this addresses the issues raised about the pretrib rapture.

Acts 2 dispensationalists try to keep the gospel and epistles unified. Mid Acts dispensationalists see a distinction between the gospels (which is a record of the gospel of the earthly kingdom being offered to the nation of Israel) and the gospel of grace (which is offered to gentiles). Those of Israel can look forward to one of two resurrections.


Could we keep the topic off of the confusion of hyperdispensationalism and on the topic mentioned in the OP?
 
Why is the church no longer mentioned after Revelation’s first three chapters?
The word ekklesia is used to refer to local/city level assemblies not the 'church militant' or 'the church through time and space in the Book of Revelation. But II Thessalonians 1 uses the word 'church' for the revelation of the Lord from heaven, clarifying that the Lord will execute judgment on them that know not God when He comes to be glorified in the saints. (Notice it does NOT say that He will be glorified in the saints then come back seven years to execute vengeance.)
 
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John wrote the seven Messianic churches (assemblies) in Asia to prepare them for the tribulation that could have come had Israel received the Kingdom that had been offered them.

They avoided the tribulation? What do you call the destruction of Jerusalem?
 
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Israel as a nation has 70 weeks, 490 years, to make an end of sins, and to anoint the most holy who is Jesus.

They have not done that so the 70 weeks could of not been fulfilled.

69 weeks have passed with 1 more week to go.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Israel will not see Jesus until they acknowledge Him as their Messiah.

Their house is left desolate until they do that.

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Jer 46:27 But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.
Jer 46:28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.

God will restore the kingdom to Israel.

Which He will cause an end of all Gentile governments.

And Israel will be the only reigning government.

God will gather all Hebrews back to Israel and leave none of them in the nations anymore.

And they will be in the truth and never stray again.

Israel is blinded in part until salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles.

And so all Israel shall be saved.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The last week does not apply to Jesus because the last week was not fulfilled.

It applies to the prince to come who will be of the Roman Empire.

Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

The Roman Empire does not lose their dominion until Jesus puts down the world.

Which they will become 10 horns the world divided in to 10 sections with a leader in each section.

The antichrist will come from them.

They will devour the earth which is by their plan which influences the world.

The new age christianity(1 Timothy 4:1-5; 2 Timothy 4:2-4) which the Pope will embrace.

The Bible says Babylon will never have physical dominion again the same as Medo-Persia and Greece but their lives were prolonged for a time and a season.

Which their ways are still on earth.

Which the beast kingdom in Revelation is Babylon in spirit which she represents human religion, the occult, and the kingdom of man.

Which is what the beast kingdom is about.

God is love and loves all people but He has to end sin on earth one day.

The last 7 years is when God is gives the world their way to go against the truth and follow the antichrist and brings Israel to the truth.

For the first 3.5 years salvation is available to the world and the last 3.5 years is the great tribulation towards the saints.

Since God is allowing the world 7 years to go against the truth the saints will remain on earth to represents the truth.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

For the first 3.5 years salvation is available to the world so the wrath of God would not be there.

The last 3.5 years the beast has power to rule the world which he can only have that power if God allows it so the wrath of God would not be there.

The seals and trumpets are not the wrath of God but the vials are that happen after the 7 years period.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Israel is protected for the 7 years period from physical attack.

The New Age Christ will negotiate peace in the Middle East resulting in a 7 years peace treaty which will impact the world because of their fighting and opposition to each other.

The 7 years will start.

It will pave the way for all Hebrews to go to Israel for the nations will see to it.

And the antichrist wants them all back on their land but God means it for good.

The Jews will rebuild their 3rd temple and go back to animal sacrifices for the Orthodox Jews.

Continued in next post
 
Continued from above post

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

The saints will not be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first.

Which is the condition of the world in response to the truth.

When the New Age Christ starts working in the world he will push the agenda of the new age and stop the truth from being publicly taught.

And the man of sin claims to be God which happens in the middle of the week.

So the resurrection did not happen before the 7 years period.

At the end of the first 3.5 years the falling away happened when the transgressors are come to the full.

Then the man of sin will step in to the Jews temple and tell them to stop animal sacrifices and he is their God and savior.

When the world takes the mark of the beast then salvation is no longer available to the world.

And the fulness of the Gentiles will have come in.

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

God will send 2 witnesses to Israel to turn them to the truth.

At the end of that time Israel will be in the truth and the 70th week fulfilled.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

For the last 3.5 years the beast makes war against the saints and prevails against them.

And they are given in to his hand for 3.5 years.

And when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people all things are finished.

Which then comes the end the resurrection happening.

And then Jesus will put down all power, rule, and authority, which the wrath of God happens then.

If Jesus puts down the world as soon as the resurrection happens if it happens before the 7 years period why do the heathen continue for 7 years.

Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Once the resurrection happens no person on earth can be saved but the Jews.

But for the first 3.5 years salvation is still available to the world so it cannot be a resurrection before the 7 years.

2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

When the resurrection does not happen before the 7 years period it will overthrow the faith of some people.

And they will follow the new age christianity interpretation of the Bible.

The people who preach a resurrection before the 7 years period need to understand the truth and stop preaching it and relate the truth.

Some people that claim Christianity will turn from it and many in the world will say another failed prophesy about the resurrection and will not consider Christianity.

A dangerous doctrine it is.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

But what does it matter to people that say that God chooses them without their choice for if they are saved they are saved and if not they are not saved.

But God wants all people to be saved and if all people are not saved then we have a choice.

And Jesus takes away the sins of the world.

Another dangerous doctrine.

Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

God does the calling and choosing on earth according to a person's heart condition.

Predestination means God already had the plan to give mankind salvation from the foundation of the world.

And this salvation is to whoever wants it for God wants all people to be saved.

And Jesus takes away the sins of the world.
 
They avoided the tribulation? What do you call the destruction of Jerusalem?

Not this;

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The 70 year sojourn of Israel with the Babylonian captivity was sufficient to stop Israel from the practice of idolatry. A 2,000 year sojourn among the gentiles may be sufficient to have a faithful remnant of Israel accept their Messiah and the earthly kingdom.

Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
 
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  1. First resurrection is a definition of quality not quantity. Christ is the first fruits of the first resurrection. It is a resurrection unto life as distinct from the resurrection unto condemnation. Jn.5:29

I appreciate your responding to the actual questions in the OP.

Protos _can_ mean that, like foremost, or first in an ordinal or temporal sense. But let's look at the context.

Revelation 20
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (NKJV)

Notice 'until', a temporal type word. It's in a 'temporal' context.

If you draw a line on a piece of paper then held it up to eye level looking down the line, it would appear as a single dot. It's a matter of perspective based on number one answer ie. quality, not quantity.

That was a reply to my question.
  • How is the pretrib rapture resurrection not in conflict with Revelation 20’s stated timing?"

I don't get your point. Would you mind unpacking what you mean there?

It says the lawless one will be revealed. If the revealing and the destroying happen simultaneously then, assuming Christians are going through the great tribulation, they must be pretty dense Christians not to know who the Antichrist was for the past seven years.
Not exactly sure what your point is here.

Whose eschatology requires that the church no know who the man of sin is for seven or however many years once he has been revealed? I don't see any eschatology would require that.

Both Israel and the Church must be "adorned in white" before the marriage can take place. It's why the church stands before the judgement seat of Christ for evaluation. 2Cor.5:10
Because 2Thess.2:1 speaks of two things, Christ's presence on earth and our assembling to Him which occurs in the air, not on earth. 1Thess.4:17

It says,
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Why would the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in this verse be different from the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ at which our gathering together unto Him takes place? What clue in the passage would tip readers off to this idea?

What other passage is there in all of scripture that would justify two coming of Christ events to interpret the passage this way?

I don't see they are two different comings in Matt.24. At this point the Church doesn't exist so there is no question asked in relation to the Church.

What do you think the coming of the Son of man refers to then? How does that fit into your eschatological timeline?
In respect to the Second Coming and the Rapture, the former is a return of Christ to earth for the purpose of ruling the world from Israel while the latter is a promise fulfilled to come and get His church and take her to where He is. Jn.14:3 for the Church's citizenship is in heaven. Phil.3:20
Abraham was looking for a city,
Hebrews 11
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

and
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

In the book of Revelation, the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven.
The Rapture is not a return to earth but is the resurrection of the Church as part of the various orders/classes/ranks belonging to Christ that would be raised to life.
 
I appreciate your responding to the actual questions in the OP.

Protos _can_ mean that, like foremost, or first in an ordinal or temporal sense. But let's look at the context.

Revelation 20
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (NKJV)

Notice 'until', a temporal type word. It's in a 'temporal' context.
The context is the final seven years, not all of human history. It is comparing those who were martyred during that time as being raised to life where those who died as unbelievers were not raised until after the Millennium and that would be unto the resurrection of condemnation so yes, happy are those who are raised in the first or pre-eminent resurrection for that is to life not death (ie second death). There is only two ways to die during that time, either in service to the beast or in service to God. A person can only be raised to life once and it is either to eternal life or eternal condemnation.

That was a reply to my question.
  • How is the pretrib rapture resurrection not in conflict with Revelation 20’s stated timing?"

I don't get your point. Would you mind unpacking what you mean there?

Because there is only one resurrection to life. That it can occur at different temporal positions doesn't make it a different resurrection, it is all a part of the one. Those who belong to Christ beginning from Adam to the "last man standing" are raised according to their own order. Just as you have different companies in an army but one army, believers makeup different companies but still one family of God. Those raised in Rev.20 are the martyrs of the Tribulation and form a particular company in God's family. All believers are raised according to their set/rank/company.

1 Corinthians 15:23
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

Whose eschatology requires that the church no know who the man of sin is for seven or however many years once he has been revealed? I don't see any eschatology would require that.

I think I misunderstood the question because the Op is (essentially) a comparison between pre-trib and post-trib and I had pre-trib in my mind. Obviously the destruction of the beast in Rev.19 is the same destruction of the anti-christ in 2Thess.2:8. The point I was making is that 2Thess.2:1 is speaking of two events, the presence of Christ and our gathering to Him. The anti-christ is not revealed until the departure. Some interpret that as meaning apostasy but what does that look like? We have so many denominations now and some are obviously apostate. Will it mean every single church in the world will be apostate and that there will be no visible true Church? How is that discernible? A removal of the Church from earth (rapture) is unmistakable and not so easy to dismiss as some other event.
It says,
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Why would the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in this verse be different from the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ at which our gathering together unto Him takes place? What clue in the passage would tip readers off to this idea?

What other passage is there in all of scripture that would justify two coming of Christ events to interpret the passage this way?

There are not two comings. There is one coming (to earth) and one gathering (in the air). Two very different looking events. The first all eyes see Him Rev.1:7 It is not mentioned anyone will see him at our gathering except those who are gathered (obviously). As the passage indicates the teaching was more extensive than the small bit we are receiving in 2Thess.2 (ie v.5), we need to look elsewhere for more information.

What do you think the coming of the Son of man refers to then? How does that fit into your eschatological timeline?

The second coming of Christ to Earth to rule for a millennium.

The Rapture is the removal of the Church from earth by way of resurrection which in turn allows the anti-christ to be revealed as the restrainer (the Holy Spirit who abides in the Church), is now removed. The seven year tribulation follows where the Lord picks up His promises to Israel to make them the head and not the tail on earth Deut.28:13 but they will go through hell to get there. All the anti-semites will begin to think they have finally reached their goal of eradicating Israel for she will be taken down to the wire and look to be in a hopless position but then the Lord Jesus Christ will descend from heaven, destroy all Israel's enemies in a single blow and proceed to set up His rule on earth for a thousand years. This is the Second Coming. He will now rule the world from Israel, He will heal the land worldwide, creation will be removed from it's curse of sin so that the wolf will lie with the lamb and the deserts will flourish and He will cast Satan into a pit to be locked up for the duration. Perfect environment and perfect government for a thousand years will confirm that man's problem is not on the outside but is within and is spiritual in nature and what he really needs is a change of heart.

Abraham was looking for a city,
Hebrews 11
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

and
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Yes? How does this preclude a pre-tribulation resurrection of the Church?

Imo, the writer is looking to the eternal state (beyond the Millenium) where there is a new heaven and new earth and what none of us can even begin to imagine what it will be like except to say we will all be united in absolute perfection and there will be no more tears or sorrow or death. Hallelujah! :LOL:
 
The abomination of desolation happens in the midst of the week. That splits the 7 years in half, 'time, times and half times', 1260 days and 42 months. The first half is tribulation, the second half is wrath. The is NO SUCH THING as '7 year tribulation' in scripture.

Revelation 6 describes the tribulation, 5th seal is 'great tribulation', 'mark of the beast'[ and the 6th seal is the destruction of that great city that killed the prophets and cricified the Lord Jesus Christ. Mystery Babylon.

Revelation 6:9-17

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The 144,000 in the end are OT saints, firstfruits, that the Lord saved when He went to the heart of the earth.