Spiritualizing away the truth.

[gotime]

When I say Spiritualizing I simply mean the idea of taking something that is real and making it spiritual to nullify the true meaning.

Sin is one of these. I have heard many say that though we sin if we are in Christ then we are not sinners. this is false.

notice the definition of the word sinner from the oxford dictionary:


A person who transgresses against divine law by committing an immoral act or acts:

This also happens to be the definition of sin in the bible:

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So if you sin you are a sinner there are no two ways about it. a sinner is someone who sins.

Some say that because Christ does not impute our sins to us that we can now sin and not be a sinner.

First that does not ring true to the definition of sinner as we have shown.

Second:

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The bible is clear that the born again person who has Christ in them does not sin.

This is why people spirtualize the truth away so that they can claim to have Christ while still sinning.

But Jesus said:

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Did Jesus die to leave us slaves to sin?

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Clearly the answer is a resounding no.

The one who is truly born again receives grace what does grace do?

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Grace is power to live godly in this present world. not later but now. Does Grace allow us to sin?

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?


Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Paul says no.

what about Faith, If I have faith does that allow me to sin?

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Instead of spirtualizing the truth away, why not partake of the wonderful grace/power that Christ offers us through His own death and life. Remember he is our example:

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Time to fight the good fight brothers and sisters.

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

And remember:

Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Blessings

 

[pastac]

When I say Spiritualizing I simply mean the idea of taking something that is real and making it spiritual to nullify the true meaning.

Sin is one of these. I have heard many say that though we sin if we are in Christ then we are not sinners. this is false.

notice the definition of the word sinner from the oxford dictionary:


A person who transgresses against divine law by committing an immoral act or acts:

This also happens to be the definition of sin in the bible:

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So if you sin you are a sinner there are no two ways about it. a sinner is someone who sins.

Some say that because Christ does not impute our sins to us that we can now sin and not be a sinner.

First that does not ring true to the definition of sinner as we have shown.

Second:

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The bible is clear that the born again person who has Christ in them does not sin.

This is why people spirtualize the truth away so that they can claim to have Christ while still sinning.

But Jesus said:

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Did Jesus die to leave us slaves to sin?

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Clearly the answer is a resounding no.

The one who is truly born again receives grace what does grace do?

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Grace is power to live godly in this present world. not later but now. Does Grace allow us to sin?

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?


Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Paul says no.

what about Faith, If I have faith does that allow me to sin?

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Instead of spirtualizing the truth away, why not partake of the wonderful grace/power that Christ offers us through His own death and life. Remember he is our example:

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Time to fight the good fight brothers and sisters.

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

And remember:

Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Blessings

This is a good start but it will get twisted in some sort of weird way if you don't keep the thread true to the post.

 

[haz]

When I say Spiritualizing I simply mean the idea of taking something that is real and making it spiritual to nullify the true meaning.

Sin is one of these. I have heard many say that though we sin if we are in Christ then we are not sinners. this is false.

Hi gotime,

It's been a while since we debated. I see your still preaching works of the law for righteousness.

Regarding your denial of a spiritual reading of scripture, I refer you to 1Cor 2:13-14

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


You quote a lot of scriptures that you do not understand, and thus view them from the wrong perspective of one who desires to be under the law.

But what does scripture say?
Rom 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Other scriptures that confirm that Christians are not under the law include Rom 8:2, Gal 3:24,25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.

Instead it's our faith that is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

So can Christians be charged with sin/Unrighteousness/Transgression of the law they are not under?
Clearly not, as our faith is counted for righteousness and that without the deeds of the law.

Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing(this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

We see this confirmed in scripture that Christians "cannot sin" 1John 3:9, they've "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1.

For one to be able to be charged with sin/Transgression of the law they would have to be under the law as whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19. Such persons are in unbelief, even though they may be saying "Lord, Lord...", as we simply cannot mix works of the law with grace.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Regarding the doctrine of works of the law that you follow, it corrupts peoples minds from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Cor 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

The doctrine you follow nullifies the gospel of grace and the true spiritual meaning of scripture. For your own sake it better to repent of those dead works, and believe on Jesus instead.

 

[pastac]

Hi gotime,

It's been a while since we debated. I see your still preaching works of the law for righteousness.

Regarding your denial of a spiritual reading of scripture, I refer you to 1Cor 2:13-14

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


You quote a lot of scriptures that you do not understand, and thus view them from the wrong perspective of one who desires to be under the law.

But what does scripture say?
Rom 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Other scriptures that confirm that Christians are not under the law include Rom 8:2, Gal 3:24,25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.

Instead it's our faith that is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

So can Christians be charged with sin/Unrighteousness/Transgression of the law they are not under?
Clearly not, as our faith is counted for righteousness and that without the deeds of the law.

Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing(this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

We see this confirmed in scripture that Christians "cannot sin" 1John 3:9, they've "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1.

For one to be able to be charged with sin/Transgression of the law they would have to be under the law as whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19. Such persons are in unbelief, even though they may be saying "Lord, Lord...", as we simply cannot mix works of the law with grace.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Regarding the doctrine of works of the law that you follow, it corrupts peoples minds from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Cor 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

The doctrine you follow nullifies the gospel of grace and the true spiritual meaning of scripture. For your own sake it better to repent of those dead works, and believe on Jesus instead.

this is what I meant you take out what sticks out or what you don't agree with and create a dissertation on it but remove from the total post thus creating a view different than intended then you have the nerve and gall to say to your brother repent. Saying you're wrong or off base or even ignorant is ok when done decently and in order. But to tell a brother to repent for your view and their view not being in sync is judgmental don't you think. Being wrong is ok it only makes us better ministers of reconciliation when corrected if we accept correction. Sheese! I'm learning that people are strange when they believe something even I will stand firm until corrected, and I don't have a problem being corrected it makes me a better teacher!

 

[haz]

this is what I meant you take out what sticks out or what you don't agree with and create a dissertation on it but remove from the total post thus creating a view different than intended then you have the nerve and gall to say to your brother repent. Saying you're wrong or off base or even ignorant is ok when done decently and in order. But to tell a brother to repent for your view and their view not being in sync is judgmental don't you think. Being wrong is ok it only makes us better ministers of reconciliation when corrected if we accept correction. Sheese! I'm learning that people are strange when they believe something even I will stand firm until corrected, and I don't have a problem being corrected it makes me a better teacher!

Hi pastac,

Note these parts below of gotimes post.

This also happens to be the definition of sin in the bible:

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So if you sin you are a sinner there are no two ways about it. a sinner is someone who sins.....


1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Here we see gotime preaching works of the law for righteousness.
His claim is that any Christian who does not perfectly obey the law has not seen Christ nor known him.

To use your words, would you likewise say to gotime about his doctrine of works of the law for righteousness " judgmental don't you think"?

 

[pastac]

I got that but that is not the whole post its a snippet of the context of the whole post I don't think at all about that judgmental part because I'm keeping the whole post in context. Even if the brother is misquoting or misinterpreting no sin is committed thus no need to repent for not knowing or lack of understanding. Sin is more than not knowing it is a action or set of actions that keep us from God yes I get understanding can keep us from God before you go there Im referring to taking the whole text into account so the rest of what is said was ok and you only took out that?

 

[pastac]

Define sinner ok
World English Dictionary

[TD="class: td1, colspan: 2"] sin [SUP] 1 [/SUP] (sɪn)
[/TD]

[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: td2, colspan: 2"]— n
[/TD]

[TD="class: td3n1, align: right"]1.
[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"] theol
[/TD]

[TD="class: td3n1, align: right"][/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]a. transgression of God's known will or any principle or law regarded as embodying this
[/TD]

[TD="class: td3n1, align: right"][/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]b. actual sin mortal sin original sin See also venial sin the condition of estrangement from God arising from such transgression
[/TD]

[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]2.
[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]any serious offence, as against a religious or moral principle
[/TD]

[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]3.
[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]any offence against a principle or standard
[/TD]

[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]4.
[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"] informal live in sin (of an unmarried couple) to live together
[/TD]

[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: td2, colspan: 2"]— vb , sins , sinning , sinned
[/TD]

[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]5.
[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"] theol to commit a sin
[/TD]

[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]6.
[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]
( usually foll by against ) to commit an offence (against a person, principle, etc
Define law ok
law Variation | Phrase Houghton Mifflin

• n.noun
  • A rule of conduct or procedure established by custom, agreement, or authority.
  • The body of rules and principles governing the affairs of a community and enforced by a political authority; a legal system.
    international law.
  • The condition of social order and justice created by adherence to such a system.
    a breakdown of law and civilized behavior.
  • A set of rules or principles dealing with a specific area of a legal system.
    tax law; criminal law.
  • A piece of enacted legislation.
  • The system of judicial administration giving effect to the laws of a community.
    All citizens are equal before the law.
  • Legal action or proceedings; litigation.
    submit a dispute to law.
  • An impromptu or extralegal system of justice substituted for established judicial procedure.
    frontier law.
  • An agency or agent responsible for enforcing the law. Often used with the .
  • A police officer. Often used with the.
  • The science and study of law; jurisprudence.
  • Knowledge of law.
  • The profession of an attorney.
  • Something, such as an order or a dictum, having absolute or unquestioned authority.
    The commander's word was law.
  • The body of principles or precepts held to express the divine will, especially as revealed in the Bible.
  • The first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures.
  • A code of principles based on morality, conscience, or nature.
  • A rule or custom generally established in a particular domain.
    the unwritten laws of good sportsmanship.
  • A way of life.
    the law of the jungle.
  • A statement describing a relationship observed to be invariable between or among phenomena for all cases in which the specified conditions are met.
    the law of gravity.
  • A generalization based on consistent experience or results.
    the law of supply and demand.
  • A general principle or rule that is assumed or that has been proven to hold between expressions.
    
    So if I do as you did and take this all out of context Got time is correct because a sinner Is one who sins one who breaks the law that's the point I'm making

[/TD]

 

[haz]

I got that but that is not the whole post its a snippet of the context of the whole post I don't think at all about that judgmental part because I'm keeping the whole post in context. Even if the brother is misquoting or misinterpreting no sin is committed thus no need to repent for not knowing or lack of understanding. Sin is more than not knowing it is a action or set of actions that keep us from God yes I get understanding can keep us from God before you go there Im referring to taking the whole text into account so the rest of what is said was ok and you only took out that?

Gotime and I had debates some time ago hence we already have a reasonable understanding of what doctrine we each follow. Gotime even started this topic because of what I had raised under another topic.

Scripture gives many warnings about turning back to works of the law and this is what I had previously raised with gotime in our early debates.

How does one sin?
Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor/Sinner

Rom 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law:

Christians are not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24,25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9) so how can we be charged with it's transgression/Sin/Unrighteousness?

Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing(this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Hence we see in scripture that Christians "cannot sin" 1John 3:9, we've "ceased from sin" 1Pet 4:1.

Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
Do we then negate this by determining our righteousness by whether we obey the law perfectly or not?

 

[pastac]

This is not a debate forum brother nor will I debate with you I'm just pointing out to always keep the whole post in context when as you put it you debate it will either debase your statements or solidify them as long as the whole context is taken into account for I see several things I could always elaborate on in every post I read sometimes I do sometimes I don't I do seek God each time it helps lessen the sting that may come from the whip of the words sometimes.

 

[pastac]

that was my only suggestion to Got time when I first read the post be clear or it would get twisted.

 

[Jackson123]

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.


That is tough, Is that possible for a person being on an off?

Some time abideth, some time not?

 

[gotime]

lets make one thing clear,

I am not claiming that keeping the law saves you. if that was it then Jesus would never have had to come and die. He could just say, keep the law and Ill take you to heaven.

I however do not agree nor can I see any bible based argument for saying that people who sin are not sinners.

as to being under the law, we are nut under the law but under grace, does that mean I can now sin and not be a sinner?

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Paul suggests that because we are under grace we should not sin.

then he says:

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

So who are we slaves of?

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

so we are free from sin and servants to righteousness.

what does that mean?

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

when servant of sin we did sinful things but now we are servants of God we do holy things.

can it ever be said that sin is holy? no.

Paul is clear you do sinful things you are a slave to sin, or you can obey God.

I don't know why this is so hard to understand, I can testify that the Grace of God is sufficient for us, That in Him we no longer serve sin but Christ. God has delivered me from the Romans 7 experience of not being able to do what is good. and its all thanx to Christ and his power. For without Him we can do nothing John 15:5.

There is power in the blood and life of Jesus. Why is it so hard for you to believe that God who created the world can give you a new heart and change your life completely from slavery to sin to freedom in Christ.

Taste and see that the Lord is good.

 

[haz]

This is not a debate forum brother nor will I debate with you I'm just pointing out to always keep the whole post in context when as you put it you debate it will either debase your statements or solidify them as long as the whole context is taken into account for I see several things I could always elaborate on in every post I read sometimes I do sometimes I don't I do seek God each time it helps lessen the sting that may come from the whip of the words sometimes.

Thanks for your point pastac.

However we see on forums that under any topic there are various views presented and often they oppose each other. Gotime expressed his view that sin can still be charged against Christians and I have countered that view with scripture to support this. Such debating is the norm on forums.

Thanks for your view though.

 

[gotime]

Hey Jackson123,

We can abide all the time, The trick is to not let anything take your eyes/focus of Jesus. He is our strength. we only fall when we are not focused on Him.

Just like when Peter walked on the water, He did the impossible as long as his faith was firmly rooted in Jesus. it was not till he looked at the waves that he doubted and fell.

We need Faith that looks past the things that try to drag us away from God.

 

[haz]

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

what does that mean?

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

What was that form of doctrine that was delivered to us?

It was the gospel of grace. This is where our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
If our faith is counted for righteousness why would anyone then judge our righteousness by whether we obey the law perfectly or not?

Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, to everyone that believes, Rom 10:4.
Here again we see that the law is not how righteousness is proved or determined.

According to the context you presented 1John 3:6-9, you claim that any Christian who fails to keep the law perfectly has not seen Christ, neither known him.

And note Rom 6:22
ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

What is this fruit unto holiness?
It's Christ the firstfruit.
1Cor 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

And we all know that when we believe on Jesus we have everlasting life, as confirmed in Rom 6:22.

 

[Jackson123]

Hey Jackson123,

We can abide all the time, The trick is to not let anything take your eyes/focus of Jesus. He is our strength. we only fall when we are not focused on Him.

Just like when Peter walked on the water, He did the impossible as long as his faith was firmly rooted in Jesus. it was not till he looked at the waves that he doubted and fell.

We need Faith that looks past the things that try to drag us away from God.

Amen brother that what I want to do. Focus in Him alone though not support by our worldly environment
[h=1]Romans 7:19
[/h]King James Version (KJV)

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do

 

[pastac]

Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, to everyone that believes, Rom 10:4.
Here again we see that the law is not how righteousness is proved or determined.

And we all know that when we believe on Jesus we have everlasting life, as confirmed in Rom 6:22.

so haz for the unbeliever are they still under the law? If yes ok if not how could they not be?

 

[gotime]

Hi gotime,

It's been a while since we debated. I see your still preaching works of the law for righteousness.

Regarding your denial of a spiritual reading of scripture, I refer you to 1Cor 2:13-14

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


You quote a lot of scriptures that you do not understand, and thus view them from the wrong perspective of one who desires to be under the law.

But what does scripture say?
Rom 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Other scriptures that confirm that Christians are not under the law include Rom 8:2, Gal 3:24,25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.

Instead it's our faith that is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

So can Christians be charged with sin/Unrighteousness/Transgression of the law they are not under?
Clearly not, as our faith is counted for righteousness and that without the deeds of the law.

Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing(this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

We see this confirmed in scripture that Christians "cannot sin" 1John 3:9, they've "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1.

For one to be able to be charged with sin/Transgression of the law they would have to be under the law as whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19. Such persons are in unbelief, even though they may be saying "Lord, Lord...", as we simply cannot mix works of the law with grace.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Regarding the doctrine of works of the law that you follow, it corrupts peoples minds from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Cor 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

The doctrine you follow nullifies the gospel of grace and the true spiritual meaning of scripture. For your own sake it better to repent of those dead works, and believe on Jesus instead.

Point 1. I did not deny a spiritual reading of scripture, I denied spiritualizing things that are real in scripture.

as to Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
notice it says end of the law "for" righteousness. not end of the law period. the text is clearly saying that the law does not give us righteousness. Of which I heartily agree. Righteousness is imputed to us through faith in Jesus Christ. Nothing in my post was meant to suggest that we may become righteous by keeping the law.

Just down from that text Paul says:

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

notice that righteousness comes by faith. The question I pose is does Faith nullify the law?

Let Paul answer:

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

So yes I agree that righteousness comes through faith and not works of the law.



As to Romans 8:33:

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Yet this same Paul said before this in chapter 2:

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

God justifies us indeed but Paul also said that only the doers of the law shall be justified. If that is not enough then read the start of chapter 8.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

It is the spirit who helps us walk. so that we no longer walk according to the flesh. now the flesh broke Gods law/sinned. The law can not help us there it just condemns us. so Christ came to pay for our sins and gave us grace through Faith.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

why did Jesus die to condemn sin in the flesh. to what end?

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

notice that after saying that the spirit enables us to have the law fulfilled in us. He then says that the problem with carnal minds is that they are not subject to the law. The opposite of this then is the spiritual mind which then must be subject to the law of God. not saved by it but subject to it.

You have added your own meaning to the verse by suggesting that If you are actively walking in sin that it is not counted against you. the scriptures in 1 John mean exactly what they say. you are doing what I spoke against. making something that is real into you own making by spirtualizing it away.

So clarifying, I do not believe that one can be saved by works of the law. the bible is against such thought. but I also equally do not believe that Christ left us slaves to sin. We are saved by Grace through Faith. Jesus died for our sin and broke the power of the Devil. The Devil has no more power over those who are in Christ and sin has no more power. The old man that sinned is dead in Christ and through the Spirit we can walk in newness of life.

It seems to me that your Gospel is nothing more than a label but the reality is slavery to sin still.

I believe that Jesus has done much more than that. that though Him I can do all things. That nothing is impossible for Him and that the Gospel is real not just a label so that I can keep sinning and feel good about myself.

 

[gotime]

When I say "it seems to me" I am not making an accusation, but rather saying what I am seeing in your post. I acknowledge that I could be wrong in my assessment. feel free to correct me on that.

blessings.

 

[gotime]

By the way, If what I am saying about texts is wrong you should be able to show that from the context in the chapter or book being used and then use other scripture to back it up. You have yet to actually do this.